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  1.    #1  
    When I connect to the Internet, my treo650 says connecting via GPRS. My Cingular rep swears that it may say GPRS, but if EDGE is available, it's really using EDGE. Based on my observations, it doesn't appear to be fast enough to be using EDGE. Is there a way to verify it is using EDGE or is there a speed test somewhere that would verify that it is communicating fast enough to be using EDGE. If so, what is the comparative speed of GPRS and EDGE?
  2. #2  
    Most folks use the DSL Reports Mobile Speed Test for that. Speeds around 75 - 100 kbs or greater usually indicate EDGE.
    V > Vx > m505 > m515 > T/T > T3 > TC > 650 > 680
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  3. #3  
    I just tried the speed test and got 27 kbps. Guess I'm not using EDGE, huh? Actually, I don't even think T-Mobile has rolled it out yet here in NYC.
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by rambo47
    I just tried the speed test and got 27 kbps. Guess I'm not using EDGE, huh? Actually, I don't even think T-Mobile has rolled it out yet here in NYC.
    I thought I'd read that some folks on Tmo in NYC were getting EDGE speeds; I may be wrong, but if not, it probably depends on what part of the city you're in. Here in Atlanta, Tmo's so far only rolled out EDGE to two towers downtown.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gamble
    I thought I'd read that some folks on Tmo in NYC were getting EDGE speeds; I may be wrong, but if not, it probably depends on what part of the city you're in. Here in Atlanta, Tmo's so far only rolled out EDGE to two towers downtown.
    The bulk of reports of EDGE on T-Mobile seem to be coming from California (where Cingular and T-Mobile ran on the same network until very recently), the Washington/Baltimore area, and of course here in ATL. There was no EDGE visible anywhere in NYC (even midtown and lower Manhattan) when I was there a couple of weeks ago.

    BTW, nothing's changed downtown with respect to EDGE.

    -SC
    "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today. There might be a law against it by that time." -/usr/games/fortune
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    #6  
    Anyone on T-Mobile who is getting Edge speeds is most likely roaming on Cingular towers. T-Mobile is going directly to UMTS. But for people with Edge handsets, that means higher data speeds than GPRS. UMTS on T-Mobile should be rolled out in major cities by then end of the year. (as told to me by some T-Mobile data reps recently)
    Palm III -> Palm V -> Blue Palm Vx w/Omnisky -> Treo 270 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 650 -> Treo 680
  7. #7  
    Folks,

    I am new to Cingular but I have read up on GPRS vs. Edge. The little triangle indicates you are in an Edge area. The phone cannot choose or indicate Edge vs. GPRS when it is connected -- if Edge is enabled in your area, you are using it.

    Coming from Sprint and before that Verizon, Cingular's edge seems quicker to connect, and doesn't work in weak areas as well as Sprint. Network speeds are slower on speed tests than CDMA (laptop connected tethered to 650). But latency is better -- so in general it operates a little faster.

    If you use a VPN, you will need Cingular's PDA MediaNet unlimited ($40) vs. $25 Meda Net unlimited -- and you need to set your APN to use isp.cingular.net instead of wap.cingular.net. If you just need to surf the web, choose the cheaper plan and use wap.cingular.net.

    Technically, it is much easer for Sprint and Verizon (CDMA) to allocate bandwidth to data because it is a better technology. If you connect with CDMA, you get good data. Cingular gives voice priority, so if you have a weak signal, or the network is tapped out with voice calls, it can be slower.

    I get better coverage with Cingular and the 650 than I did with Sprint, but Sprint's $15 unlimited plan that includes data and SMS is unbeatable. If Sprint gives you good coverage, this is the way to go. Since I need VPN, I am using the PDA unlimited plan with Cingular. Sprint's $15 plan compresses images when surfing the web, and allows VPN access. It's a great deal and works great with PDANet.

    Glenn
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn_Butler
    If you use a VPN, you will need Cingular's PDA MediaNet unlimited ($40) vs. $25 Meda Net unlimited -- and you need to set your APN to use isp.cingular.net instead of wap.cingular.net.
    A sweeping statement that is only partly true. Yes, you need the PDA plan if your VPB software requires that you have a publicly-addressable IP address, but not all VPN clients do; some are quite adept at working from a NATted address such as one gets with the MediaNet plan. When my wife was in hospital in March, I spent many hours VPN'd in from my laptop via DUN on my MediaNet plan - our SonicWall Global VPN client handles NAT seamlessly.
    Palm Pilot Personal -> Palm III -> Palm IIIx -> Visor Prism -> Clie TJ37 -> Treo 650 -> GSM Centro
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by jetkins
    A sweeping statement that is only partly true. Yes, you need the PDA plan if your VPB software requires that you have a publicly-addressable IP address, but not all VPN clients do; some are quite adept at working from a NATted address such as one gets with the MediaNet plan. When my wife was in hospital in March, I spent many hours VPN'd in from my laptop via DUN on my MediaNet plan - our SonicWall Global VPN client handles NAT seamlessly.
    FYI... It's not a NAT issue, because Sprint uses NAT. Cingular blocks the ports that some VPN's use when connected through wap.cingular.com. We use PPTP -- it does not work with MediaNet standard through wap.cingular.com. You can connect when you use isp.cingular.net -- but this is not available with the $24 plan.

    Another thing that I didn't mention -- if you are using a push e-mail solution (Sprint Business Connection or Cingular Express Mail (boh OEM'd from Seven Networks) or Good), the PDA MW unlimited plan also includes unlimited SMS. With Sprint this is all included for $15 -- a great deal.

    The $25 unlimited MW plan with Cingular does not include SMS while the $40 PDA plan does. This may or not be an issue for you -- I don't use SMS that much. But my push e-mail system sends 20-30 hidden SMS's a day for push e-mail.

    Glenn
  10. #10  
    All good points, and thanks for the clarification on the PPTP vs NAT issue. I'm just glad ours works on the $25 plan - I think I would have a hard time selling my boss on $40/mo.
    Palm Pilot Personal -> Palm III -> Palm IIIx -> Visor Prism -> Clie TJ37 -> Treo 650 -> GSM Centro
  11. #11  
    Wow! finally detailed explainations of the technical issues related to the carriers and plans.

    Thank you Glen and Jetkin
  12. #12  
    I live in Sacramento, California and I am not on the edge plan, however, for the past two weeks I have been testing my speed in downtown Sacramento and have recorded speeds up to 118Kbps.
  13. #13  
    There's no such thing as an "edge plan". If you're connected to an EDGE tower, and you have an EDGE phone, then you use EDGE. The plan has nothing to do with it.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn_Butler
    FYI... It's not a NAT issue, because Sprint uses NAT. Cingular blocks the ports that some VPN's use when connected through wap.cingular.com. We use PPTP -- it does not work with MediaNet standard through wap.cingular.com. You can connect when you use isp.cingular.net -- but this is not available with the $24 plan.
    Glenn
    This is incorrect.
    Cingular does not block ANY ports, even on MediaNet / MediaWorks. VPN issues are in fact because of NAT on the 'wap' access point.
    PPTP VPN will not work over NAT (Mergic VPN.)
    IPSec VPN will work over NAT (Cisco VPN, Movian VPN.)
    I have used VPN (Movian from Treo, Cisco from a laptop) over Media Net, and I can confirm Mergic doesn't work for this reason (it's NAT, not blocked ports.)

    Here is a thread that explains this in more detail (including a quote form AT&T wireless tech support.)
    http://discuss.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=77807
    As well as:
    http://discuss.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=80756
    Last edited by taylorh; 05/13/2005 at 09:54 PM.
    Treo 750 (AT&T)
    Treo600->Treo650->Cing8525->Blackberry 8700c->Treo750->AT&T Tilt->Treo750->iPhone 3G
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by taylorh
    This is incorrect.
    Cingular does not block ANY ports, even on MediaNet / MediaWorks. VPN issues are in fact because of NAT on the 'wap' access point.
    PPTP VPN will not work over NAT (Mergic VPN.)
    IPSec VPN will work over NAT (Cisco VPN, Movian VPN.)
    I have used VPN (Movian from Treo, Cisco from a laptop) over Media Net, and I can confirm Mergic doesn't work for this reason (it's NAT, not blocked ports.)

    Here is a thread that explains this in more detail (including a quote form AT&T wireless tech support.)
    http://discuss.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=77807
    As well as:
    http://discuss.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=80756
    I am not incorrect. Most NAT solutions / routers work with PPTP unless they are configured not to. Cingular's Media Net plan does not, Verizon and Sprints do. Also, the PDA connect plan does not give you a "true" IP.

    Glenn
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn_Butler
    I am not incorrect. Most NAT solutions / routers work with PPTP unless they are configured not to.
    I stand corrected, you're right.
    According to Mergic VPN's support site the NAT router must be configured to pass GRE packets which is not common for a NAT router.
    I learn something new every day, I was under the understanding that it was simply a limitation with NAT.

    So the reverse of what you said is a little more acurate. Rather than the router being configured to block PPTP, it simply isn't fully configured to support GRE packets and therefore PPTP VPN. It's lack of advanced configuration or capability to do so, bot they do not "block" VPN ports or any ports for that matter.
    Sprint's NAT router obviously supports GRE packets, Cingular's WAP nat router/gateway does not.
    So I do disagree. You say that it's not because of NAT, and in fact is very much is because of NAT but it's more complicated than a simple NAT statement.
    Still you make an excellent point and clearificaiton. Here's the Mergic VPN ref:
    http://www.mergic.com/vpnFAQ.php#0x870E

    You also say that Cingular blocks ports. I've never heard of a service not working through the wap.cingular access point. Web, IMAP, POP, SMTP, shoutcast, FTP, IPSec, you name it, they all work. If they are blocking ports then I've never heard of it (and I would have by now.)

    Also, here is a quote from the AT&T wireless support forum posted from an AT&T wireless technical support person. The forum was recently taken down, but I pulled this from one of my other posts http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...APT#post601700
    On Cingular Orange we use NAPT (Network Address & Port Translation). This works with some VPN solutions (like IPSec over UDP) but not others (like IPSec ESP). On Cingular Blue (AT&T Wireless), we currently use NAT (no port translation) and all the standard VPN solutions seem to work well (IPSec ESP, IPSec over UDP, PPTP, Checkpoint VPN, GRE, etc.) except IPSec AH (authenticated headers).

    If you find a service doesn't working through NAPT or NAT then you can always add an APN that gives you a dynamic public IP address (Orange "isp.cingular" or Blue "internet"). Note that you should protect your laptop using a personal firewall product if you use a pulic IP solution.

    Note - I work on the technical side and don't have access to the tools needed to solve individual subscriber account problems.
    So this may go beyond NAT alltogether. It's not just NAT, it NAPT so the port translation may be the culprit here.
    ------------------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn_Butler
    Also, the PDA connect plan does not give you a "true" IP.
    But you said this before which seems contradic that:
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn_Butler
    If you use a VPN, you will need Cingular's PDA MediaNet unlimited ($40) vs. $25 Meda Net unlimited -- and you need to set your APN to use isp.cingular.net instead of wap.cingular.net. If you just need to surf the web, choose the cheaper plan and use wap.cingular.net.
    According to the ATTws tech support quote aboce, isp.cingular gives you a "dynamic public IP address" aka a 'real IP address.'
    The $40 PDA plan gives you the ability to use isp.cingular as you already pointed out, therefore the $40 plan does in fact give you a 'real IP' address if you configure your Treo to do so. The default network profile uses WAP, so one must inentionally configure the Treo to use it.

    Anwyay, the point is that PPTP VPN doesn't work over the wap.cingular access point, we all agree on that. It appears it's because of the GRE packet issue.

    It's your general statement that they block ports which is what I need to correct. Your statement implies crippled service like T-Mobile's $5 T-Zones which blocks port 80 among others so you can't web surf and also imply that they intentionally block PPTP which the definatley do not. MediaNet is a full internet connection that allows you to anything and everything you can do behind a NAT router.

    I'd like to add that your post about Cingular EDGE, Sprint, and Verizon was very informative.
    Last edited by taylorh; 05/17/2005 at 02:19 PM.
    Treo 750 (AT&T)
    Treo600->Treo650->Cing8525->Blackberry 8700c->Treo750->AT&T Tilt->Treo750->iPhone 3G

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