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  1.    #1  
    Gave up on Verizon, and switched to Cingular yesterday to get a '650. Today I got two calls from Verizon telling me they will have them starting May 23!

    Anyway, I want to make significant use of connecting my notebook to the internet through the phone. Bought unlimited data plan ($45/mo), then read the threads about need to purchase 3rd party SW. Downloaded PDANet demo; installation is no problem. Checked a site that measures data rate, and got 40K with BT, 50K wired. Have all but one bar on signal strength.

    Is this "it"? What's all this stuff about EDGE? Thought it competes with EVDO. Is there something waiting for me to first get unlocked, or is 50K about all I should ever expect?

    Hoping for better,
  2. #2  
    From what I see on other threads, nobody has a true 3G experience out there. Everyone is really some form of 2.5G.

    I am happy with Sprint where in most places I am connecting with 100kps or more, no doubt faster data is coming but the marketing hype about more bars and all of that....it seems like most opinions on here is that it is really just hype.
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by oldmike
    Gave up on Verizon, and switched to Cingular yesterday to get a '650. Today I got two calls from Verizon telling me they will have them starting May 23!

    Anyway, I want to make significant use of connecting my notebook to the internet through the phone. Bought unlimited data plan ($45/mo), then read the threads about need to purchase 3rd party SW. Downloaded PDANet demo; installation is no problem. Checked a site that measures data rate, and got 40K with BT, 50K wired. Have all but one bar on signal strength.

    Is this "it"? What's all this stuff about EDGE? Thought it competes with EVDO. Is there something waiting for me to first get unlocked, or is 50K about all I should ever expect?

    Hoping for better,
    Are you sure Cingular has EDGE coverage in your area? If they don't, the Treo will default to GPRS, which runs at about the speed you are reporting. You ought to be getting 80-120 Kbps with Edge. I typically get similar speeds (around 100 Kbps) with Sprint on its CDMA 1xRTT network. For real speed, we'll have to wait for EVDO from Verizon (here now, but not on the Treo) or Sprint (not on the Treo and not here yet, anyway).
  4. #4  
    Unlimited data plan from T-Mobile is $19.99. It's not EDGE but it still is unlimited.
  5. #5  
    Do a search, but somewhere around here is an entire thread with GSM/Edge data tests by numerous people using dslreports. Bottom line was that averages were similar to my experience: 110-140k, while my former Sprint/Vision data rates were 80-115k.
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  6. #6  
    T-Mobile in CA and NV apparently does have Edge. A legacy of the original combined Cingular/T-Mobile system in those states, which in turn was a legacy of the original 1900Mhz GSM rollout by PacBell in CA and NV.
  7. #7  
    You must have bought the "PDA" Unlimited plan for $45..

    Some people claim to have unlimited Cingular at the 19.99 rate, but there is an unlimited plan for $24.99 that works with the 650.. Just tell them you are using a different phone..
  8. #8  
    On my shiney new Treo 650, using T-Mobile's $4.99/month T-Zones for data, I am getting abut 27 kbps according to DSL Reports. If I bought a better (higher priced) data plan would I get better speed? I'm in NYC.
  9. #9  
    Using PDANet I get about 80kbps-90kbps when doing the speed test on http://www.dslreports.com/mspeed/
    That's using MSIE in WinXP, via PDANet.
    However, I take these results with a grain of salt, the speed test here isn't very acurate as it doesn't take in to account the 2 second initial lag at the start of the test.
    Having said that, I've done some downloads (PDF files, etc) and it appears I'm really getting closer to 100-110kbps, but I've never really tried to measure it acurately.

    Doing the same test with blazer, I get roughly 120-140kbps typical.

    EVDO (Verizon) is supposed to be actual 3G, as is UMTS (AT&T Wireless)
    EDGE and GPRS are "2.5G" They're better than the first 2G implementations but don't even come close to the requirements of the 3G definition.

    Yes, using the web through the Treo via PDANet is painfully slow if you're used to broadband. But it's consistently about 2x better than 56k dial-up based on my experience.

    For test results see:
    http://www.dslreports.com/mspeed?results=1
    Only count the onese that say "Blazer 4.0" that way you know they're Treo tests.
    Unfortuately we don't have any Verizon/Treo results to compare with yet.
    Some of the really high test results may be skewed because of proxies, so you can't depend on them.
    Treo 750 (AT&T)
    Treo600->Treo650->Cing8525->Blackberry 8700c->Treo750->AT&T Tilt->Treo750->iPhone 3G
  10. #10  
    I'm using an Unbranded Treo 650 on Tmobile in NW Florida, both me and my coworker both get between 229-309kbps on dslreports, also my boss gets about the same with his Treo 600. The only thing is we only get those rates when using Xiino, when using Blazer the most I've seen is around 40kbps. I'm going to try the DUN with bluetooth to my computer and test using that and see what the speed is.
  11. #11  
    Oldmike,

    First of all EDGE is not a 3G service and is not designed to compete with EVDO. Part of the reason your data throughput is poor is because of your signal strength. You will not realize the speed of EDGE with only 1 bar of signal on your phone. If you manage to get 4 -5 bars of signal strength then what you should experience is 80 - 120k downloads but keep in mind that latency is high with an average in the 500ms - 2000ms range. A GPRS only service such as T Mobile would only offer about 40k down.

    Both AT&T/Cingular are building out their 3G networks now. AT&T/Cingular is utilizing UMTS with downloads of around 384K and it is available in about 5 cities now. Verizon is building out their EVDO network with downloads of 500k and is also available in about 5 or 6 cities. Don't get too excited yet as the Treo 650 is not a 3G phone and will not work on these newer networks.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldmike
    Gave up on Verizon, and switched to Cingular yesterday to get a '650. Today I got two calls from Verizon telling me they will have them starting May 23!

    Anyway, I want to make significant use of connecting my notebook to the internet through the phone. Bought unlimited data plan ($45/mo), then read the threads about need to purchase 3rd party SW. Downloaded PDANet demo; installation is no problem. Checked a site that measures data rate, and got 40K with BT, 50K wired. Have all but one bar on signal strength.

    Is this "it"? What's all this stuff about EDGE? Thought it competes with EVDO. Is there something waiting for me to first get unlocked, or is 50K about all I should ever expect?

    Hoping for better,
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by Souren
    I'm using an Unbranded Treo 650 on Tmobile in NW Florida, both me and my coworker both get between 229-309kbps on dslreports, also my boss gets about the same with his Treo 600. The only thing is we only get those rates when using Xiino, when using Blazer the most I've seen is around 40kbps. I'm going to try the DUN with bluetooth to my computer and test using that and see what the speed is.
    Those test results are not acurate.
    Treo 650 is a class 10 EDGE device meaning it is capable of a maximum of about 180kbps, and the Treo 600 is a class 10 GRPS device with a max of about 60kbps.
    Real world max Treo 650 is about 150kbps, real world max Treo 600 is about 40kbps.
    Typical Treo 650 is 120kbps, typical treo 600 is about 35kbps.

    Using Xiino to do your speed test results is inacurate. Xiino uses a proxy. THe proxy downloads the page at a high speed (broadband), then re-formats/reduces the page and images, then your Treo downloads from the proxy. What this test is measuring is a combination of it downloading the speed test over braodband and the re-download to the Treo. The end result is an artificially inflated test result.. you basically tricked the speed test.

    Using Blazer is the only acurate way to use this speed test as blazer downloads directly to the Treo, not through a proxy.
    Treo 750 (AT&T)
    Treo600->Treo650->Cing8525->Blackberry 8700c->Treo750->AT&T Tilt->Treo750->iPhone 3G
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by masters
    You must have bought the "PDA" Unlimited plan for $45..

    Some people claim to have unlimited Cingular at the 19.99 rate, but there is an unlimited plan for $24.99 that works with the 650.. Just tell them you are using a different phone..
    better yet, don't tell them anything....change it yourself via the web site.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by taylorh

    Using Blazer is the only acurate way to use this speed test as blazer downloads directly to the Treo, not through a proxy.
    Or....The way they did it here was to use FTP:

    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1772797,00.asp

    "To determine the average download speed, we downloaded 1MB and 5MB text and ZIP files. The text files contained compressible data, while the ZIP file contained noncompressible data. The files resided on our PC Magazine servers in New York, which are connected to the Web via a 1.5-Mbps SDSL connection. We also downloaded a roughly 5MB file from Microsoft and ran Web-based "bandwidth testers" from two sites— www.toast.net and www.bandwidthplace.com ."
  15. #15  
    Treo 650 is a class 10 device, that means there can only be 4 up slots and 2 down slots MAX - with a total of 5 active at one time (4+1 or 3+2). this is set by the carrier at the tower (and on some phones). people get the max rate of download speed by the max number of connections a class 10 device is capable of - 8 slots - that will never be possible. Each slot is capable of 20 - 24 per second (this is where some people get confused, they say a 650 or any class 10 device is capable of 150+- max, they think all 8 can be used). With the 650 your max will be almost 100 if you have all 4 slots downloading at the same time. Your dslreports or downloads can say whatever they want, but this is from a technical reality of the hardware in the phone and in the towers.

    If someone really wants me to get deep into this, just let me know....
    Last edited by GIS_guy; 05/05/2005 at 12:04 AM.
  16. #16  
    That's pretty much exactly what the article says but they indicate up to 59.2 Kbps per slot. They agree with you on the 4 slot max and I note that 4 times the 59.2 equals the theoretical maximum reported in this as well as various other articles. Of course no one has will ever hit "theoretical".

    I look forward to reading your letter to the editor in the next issue of the magazine....go straighten them out !!!
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by GIS_guy
    Treo 650 is a class 10 device, that means there can only be 4 up slots and 2 down slots MAX - with a total of 5 active at one time (4+1 or 3+2). this is set by the carrier at the tower (and on some phones). people get the max rate of download speed by the max number of connections a class 10 device is capable of - 8 slots - that will never be possible. Each slot is capable of 20 - 24 per second (this is where some people get confused, they say a 650 or any class 10 device is capable of 150+- max, they think all 8 can be used). With the 650 your max will be almost 100 if you have all 4 slots downloading at the same time. Your dslreports or downloads can say whatever they want, but this is from a technical reality of the hardware in the phone and in the towers.

    If someone really wants me to get deep into this, just let me know....
    Actually, if you don’t mind, I would like to get deep into it. At least clear some things up. With all due respect I don’t mean to argue here or even say your incorrect, because I really can’t say I know anything about this. But what I’ve read so far which contradicts what you’re saying which is that EDGE has a limit of 20-25kbps per time slot.
    Also you said 4up and 2down. I think you meant 4 down and 2 up, right?
    A class 10 has a max of 5 active slots (not 8) and it can do 3down/2up, or more typically 4down/1up. And the Treo 650 is class 10 EDGE. You did say the Treo 650 has a max of 5 active, buy you also said a class 10 has a max of 8.
    I know a GPRS class 12 has 8 active (4down/4up,) so I don't know what class of EDGE can get 8 down (perhaps class 12 EDGE can, I don't know the answer to this one.)


    This page applies to GPRS, but I think SOME of the same rules apply to EDGE:
    http://www.gsmworld.com/technology/gprs/class.shtml
    In any case for the Treo 600 (GPRS class 10) it should be:
    8-12Kbps Send - 32-48Kbps Receive

    According to what I’ve read, each EDGE download time slot is capable of up to 48kbps, not the 20-24 which you say.
    The maximum data rate for EDGE (formerly called GSM384, hence the name) is 384kbps using 8 download time slots (8*48=384)
    That is according to:
    http://www.arcelect.com/2G-3G_Cellular_Wireless.htm
    http://www.wirelessdevnet.com/channe...tomorrow5.html
    http://sprintdevelopers.com/article22.html
    and this one…
    http://www.3g-generation.com/gprs_and_edge.htm …which quote:
    “Enhanced Data rates for Global Evolution (EDGE) is a radio based high-speed mobile data standard. It allows data transmission speeds of 384 kbps to be achieved when all eight timeslots are used. In fact, EDGE was formerly called GSM384. This means a maximum bit rate of 48 kbps per timeslot. Even higher speeds may be available in good radio conditions.”

    Also, according to this Ericcson white paper: http://www.ericsson.com/products/whi..._technical.pdf
    “GPRS allows data rates of 115 kbps and, theoretically, of up to 160 kbps on the physical layer.
    EGPRS is capable of offering data rates of 384 kbps and, theoretically, of up to 473.6 kbps.”


    This one is also interesting where it says a Nokia 9300 is capable of 236.8kbps using 4+1 (5) download time slots (236.8/5 = 47.36kbps per time slot.. or 48)
    http://www.india-cellular.com/HC1-%20above20k.htm
    But I think 236.8 is an error because it says 4+1 or 3+2 (aka 4down/2up, or 3down/2up) which means it would also have a max of 192kbps.

    Thus the maximum download rate should be 196kbps (with 4 time slots.)
    I have to say I believe this is true only because I swear I’ve seen download speeds up to 162kbps with a typical in the 120kbps range.

    So what I’ve read is:
    Class 10 device: 192 kbps down / 96 kbps up
    Class 4 device: 144 kbps down / 48 kbps up

    On the other hand, to contradict all of this, Cingular advertises that the Sony Ericsson GC83 EDGE PC Card is capable of up to 135kbps max download “Multislot class 10 (4/2) down/up” and GPRS up to 40kbps. That divides out to 33.75kbps per time slot. So I don’t know if 33.7 is what they (Cingular) claims is the maximum actual throughput or what. I don’t know where that 135 number comes from, I'm skeptical of it's acuracy. However, it is yet another indication that a class 10 edge device is capable of at least 135 if not more.
    I really think the 135 number here was based on a 3slot down/2slot up connection which would make out to be 45kbps (close enough to 48), but who the heck knows.

    Either way I think it’s safe to say you should be capable of 140-160kbps on the Treo 650 in the most perfect of conditions. 80-100kbps under typical or somewhat congested conditions.
    This article is also interesting:
    http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6899157/
    Which quote: “While not as fast as some of the new data services used on CDMA/1xRTT networks (Verizon and Sprint), EDGE is capable of 100-130 Kbps download speeds (with bursts up to 200Kbps) and seems very speedy on the 650.”

    Lastly, the thing got me looking in to all of this was stumbling across this thread on Howard Forums discussing the difference between class 4 and class 10. After I read it I started searching hi and low to learn about EDGE.
    http://www.howardforums.com/showthre...0&pagenumber=3
    In that thread, user “MCH” says:
    “I'll typically see on the downlink
    100-170Kbps with class 10 EDGE
    220-320Kbps with UMTS
    70-95Kbps with class 2 EDGE
    35-50Kbps with class 8 or 10 GPRS”


    Care to clear up where I went wrong or how I'm confusing my references?
    Thanks for your post by the way.
    -Taylor
    Last edited by taylorh; 05/05/2005 at 12:55 PM.
    Treo 750 (AT&T)
    Treo600->Treo650->Cing8525->Blackberry 8700c->Treo750->AT&T Tilt->Treo750->iPhone 3G
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by taylorh
    This one is also interesting where it says a Nokia 9300 is capable of 236.8kbps using 4+1 (5) download time slots (236.8/5 = 47.36kbps per time slot.. or 48)
    That's exactly what the PC Mag site says also. Here's an excerpt.

    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1772904,00.asp

    "The Cingular EDGE network is the closest thing to a truly nationwide cellular high-speed data network available today. While those high speeds may feel more like dial-up than broadband at times, you can't beat EDGE's availability—you can access the Internet from almost anywhere you can get a Cingular cell-phone signal.

    EDGE is available on phones and PC Cards. On phones, you can't really tell the difference between it and GPRS, because pictures and games are still so small. As multimegapixel camera phones and larger games become available, the speediness of EDGE will really start to shine.

    EDGE's speed is more obvious when you use your phone as a modem for your PDA or laptop. Cingular allows you to connect all of its EDGE-capable phones to PCs using Bluetooth or a USB cable; you can also do this with the Cingular UMTS network, but not with Verizon EV-DO. The hookup can be tricky, depending on the phone model.
    Devices that use Cingular EDGE
    • palmOne Treo 650
    • Nokia 6230
    • Sierra Wireless AirCard 775

    EDGE works as part of Cingular's existing GSM system. GSM chops up each cellular channel within the band into eight consecutive time slots, theoretically interleaving up to eight voice calls in each channel. Your handset's circuitry knows which time slots to listen to and pieces the call back together so it sounds coherent.

    Data systems like GPRS and EDGE can use several time slots at once to multiply their speeds. EDGE's nine encoding schemes allow speeds from 8.4 to 59.2 Kbps per time slot.

    There are 12 classes of EDGE devices, based on the number of time slots they can use; higher classes offer faster data transfer. The most advanced EDGE phones currently use Class 10, with four downloading slots and two uploading slots. And though Class 10's theoretical maximum speed is 236 Kbps, we maxed out at 220 Kbps during testing. That's more than three times as fast as dial-up, but still much slower than cable, DSL, or EV-DO."
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    That's exactly what the PC Mag site says also. Here's an excerpt.

    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1772904,00.asp

    "Data systems like GPRS and EDGE can use several time slots at once to multiply their speeds. EDGE's nine encoding schemes allow speeds from 8.4 to 59.2 Kbps per time slot.

    There are 12 classes of EDGE devices, based on the number of time slots they can use; higher classes offer faster data transfer. The most advanced EDGE phones currently use Class 10, with four downloading slots and two uploading slots. And though Class 10's theoretical maximum speed is 236 Kbps, we maxed out at 220 Kbps during testing. That's more than three times as fast as dial-up, but still much slower than cable, DSL, or EV-DO."
    This is where it gets fuzzy
    Based on the MCS9 encoding scheme, you can achieve 59.2kbps.
    Using MCS7, you get 48kbps. I think this is where the "48kbps rate" comes from, the assumption that you're maxing out on MCS7.
    I have to go read the whole white paper (ericsson White paper link my previous post) end to end and try to understand how/when it uses each enoding scheme and how it switches between them.
    Either way, I just don't know how they were able to get up to 220kbps. Perhaps they were able to burst with MCS9 at times.
    Herein lies the whole problem with EDGE and trying to understand it.
    There are theoretical burst maximums, and there are realistic sustainable maximums. Again I have to go read the white paper, it expliains all of this.

    There is also... shoot, I forgot the term for it... but you start downloading data at lower speeds, and as it detects low error rates, it ramps up your speed until it hits the maximum. So the first 20KB could download slower than the final 80+KB and it ramps up to the maximum speeds.
    This is one of the reasons the DSL reports speed test shows higher speeds on the 200K and 600K tests than on the 50K and 100K tests.

    I'll add one more thing. I found this here:
    http://www.idmonsters.com/files/Devi...reSettings.pdf
    "GPRS DATA SPEEDS AND TIME SLOT DEDICATION
    The Cingular GPRS network will generally provide connectivity for users at data rates between 10-30 kbps. The GPRS network supports two dedicated timeslots (downlink) on the airlink in all markets, with up to 4 additional timeslots dynamically available based on voice congestion and market configuration. One timeslot is dedicated for uplink."
    I remember reading somewhere that the access point WAP had only 1 dedicated and AP ISP had 2 dedicated, but I can't seem to find that reference anymore. Also I think the max is now 8 down and 4 up for EDGE (whereas the refernce above was for GPRS only.)
    The point is 4 time slots are not necessarily always available. Voice traffic gets priority over dyniamic time slots.

    Regarding speeds on a Treo.
    Also, keep in mind the Treo 650 has a relatively weak processor (weaker than a PC for example) so most of your download speed restrictions is not EDGE, but the processor trying to munge that data in Blazer to render it. There are times pages take forever to download, and it's simply blazer chewing on the processor...it has nothing to do with bandwidth availability
    You'll see the fastest DL speeds when downloading a file (OTA download of .PRC or ZIP for example) or downloading large emails. For example using snappermail is pretty fast when pulling an 80KB email down from a pop server, but not as fast as getting a zip or prc in blazer.
    Using a proxy based browser like Xiino, the page download is quite fast also. This is because the page is basically pre-rendered on the proxy so the browser is simply downloading the data with low processor overhead.

    You would think that using a laptop through the treo would get your fastest speeds. But for some reason using PDANet and bluetooth DUN I actually get a little slower. I think MTU packet size might play a role in this. I don't know much about this, but if you were able to tune your MTU size to be most efficient with EDGE, you MIGHT get an improvement???
    Last edited by taylorh; 05/05/2005 at 01:58 PM.
    Treo 750 (AT&T)
    Treo600->Treo650->Cing8525->Blackberry 8700c->Treo750->AT&T Tilt->Treo750->iPhone 3G
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by taylorh
    Also, keep in mind the Treo 650 has a relatively weak processor (weaker than a PC for example) so most of your download speed restrictions is not EDGE, but the processor trying to munge that data in Blazer to render it. There are times pages take forever to download, and it's simply blazer chewing on the processor...it has nothing to do with bandwidth availability
    You'll see the fastest DL speeds when downloading a file (OTA download of .PRC or ZIP for example) or downloading large emails.
    I noticed that PC rag did straight ftp downlaods w/o blazer or any browser involved.
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