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  1. #21  
    Like matthew23, I'm trying VERY hard to understand this. I read through the thread a number of times and have an idea what to look through. When I downloaded the program it wouldn't support on the Treo. I sent it to card, now where do I look for it?

    I guess this is going to be harder to keep up with than I thought...
  2.    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkEagle
    Not knowing ANYTHING about the OS, I'd say BUILTIN represents the raw memory available, while Internal is what you get after the OS has has massaged it for use. At least that's the only logical explanation I can give about the PALM_DM being a mirror of the Internal RAM.
    I think that's pretty much exactly right.

    In the old days (before NVFS), Palms didn't have a "filesystem". Everything was organized as databases in memory. So the "raw memory" was organized into database records, and that was how the OS viewed it and presented it to the programmer.

    Now that Palm has decided to use non-volatile storage for everything, the old database model doesn't really fit anymore. They need a real "filesystem", just like you would have on an SD card or a hard drive or any other kind of permanent storage. But the thing is, all the applications were written written in the days when memory really was organized as databases.

    So, for compatibility, the database view is still the "normal" view that programs see on the Treo. But now, it's not the native storage anymore. Instead, the database subsystem is "layered" on top of NVFS, and NVFS is now the true native organization of the memory -- and I think this is what the BUILTIN memory card is showing.

    I hope that's not too technical of an explanation. Basically, it's two "views" of the same thing... one is a native "NVFS" view, and the other, layered on top, is the "Database" view, which is pretty exactly what you said:
    "Internal is what you get after the OS has has massaged it for use"
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christinac130
    Like matthew23, I'm trying VERY hard to understand this. I read through the thread a number of times and have an idea what to look through. When I downloaded the program it wouldn't support on the Treo. I sent it to card, now where do I look for it?

    I guess this is going to be harder to keep up with than I thought...
    I actually couldn't get DrWowe's version of FileZ to hotsync so I loaded it on my card via card export then went to the card via ZLauncher and launched the program. Hope that helps - don't know that I would suggest doing anything but viewing the BUILTIN for now though...
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    I actually couldn't get DrWowe's version of FileZ to hotsync so I loaded it on my card via card export then went to the card via ZLauncher and launched the program. Hope that helps - don't know that I would suggest doing anything but viewing the BUILTIN for now though...
    Hmmm...I didn't have problem getting it to sync over. I did move the original from SD to RAM before syncing, but that's the only thing out of the ordinary i did.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  5. #25  
    Thanks Treo2...I guess I'll just wait and see what the BIG BRAINS figure out. It's amazing that you guys can do this stuff. My baby brother is attending DeVry in Chicago and does this stuff on a daily basis. Of course, in my mind, he's my baby brother. Therefore...he has no brain. ; P

    Did the php file end up somewhere I can delete it, even though I can't view it?
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christinac130
    Thanks Treo2...I guess I'll just wait and see what the BIG BRAINS figure out. It's amazing that you guys can do this stuff. My baby brother is attending DeVry in Chicago and does this stuff on a daily basis. Of course, in my mind, he's my baby brother. Therefore...he has no brain. ; P

    Did the php file end up somewhere I can delete it, even though I can't view it?
    If it did sync over you should be able to find it on your card - what program do you used for file management?
  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    would it possible to use a PowerRUN type program and use this "built-in card" (for lack of a better term.)
    Yes it could be possible, but it's pointless. You would save no memory copying a program from Internal to BUILTIN because they're the same memory. One is a "database" view and one is a "filesystem" view.

    The only thing its really useful for is storing files that are not .pdb or .prc that can't usually be put in main memory. For example, in testing the hack I'm working on, I could play an mp3 with pTunes. Possibly it might work with Card Export II.

    Of course, SD cards now are cheap (or free from Palm1), so is it really necessary? It's fun from a hacking perspective, but really useful? Who wants to fill up their 23 megs with MP3s?

    If there's enough demand, I might polish up and release the hack, but does anyone really care? The Filez is enough to copy files to and from, and to access the "Photos & Videos", which was my main motivation in the first place.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrWowe
    Yes it could be possible, but it's pointless. You would save no memory copying a program from Internal to BUILTIN because they're the same memory. One is a "database" view and one is a "filesystem" view.
    Thanx, that's what I was trying to figure. If it were seperate, or if it were a mirror. I guess it's a Palm version of RAID.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrWowe

    So, for compatibility, the database view is still the "normal" view that programs see on the Treo. But now, it's not the native storage anymore. Instead, the database subsystem is "layered" on top of NVFS, and NVFS is now the true native organization of the memory -- and I think this is what the BUILTIN memory card is showing.
    Maybe this is why some apps don't work well with the T650.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrWowe
    Yes it could be possible, but it's pointless. You would save no memory copying a program from Internal to BUILTIN because they're the same memory. One is a "database" view and one is a "filesystem" view.
    That's what I've been thinking. We always knew NVFS involved 2 versions of memory. Now that we know the "other part" is viewable I don't think using it would buy us anything. And this would explain why P1 did not make it viewable via native T650 apps.
  10. #30  
    I was wondering when you cats would find out about this. I discovered this about 3 weeks ago while using Resco's Explorer ( http://www.resco.net/palm/explorer/ ). It is not free but it is not a hack. For those who want to investigate in internal hidden drive, Resco has a trial period.

    The Explorer see the following "directories":
    The Directories name begin with ">".
    "-" denotes a sub directory or sub item

    > Control Panel
    - Saved Prefs
    - Unsaved Prefs
    - Alarms
    - Association
    - General
    - Slots
    > Categories
    > ROM
    > RAM
    > Builtin ( A: )
    - audio (empty)
    - BLAZER (Assume the cache data)
    - Palm (directory obviously used by apps that need to save multimedia files)
    - Live (directory that toysoft.ca 's LIVE app must have made)
    - Programs
    - SplashPhoto
    - PALM_DM
    - Photos & Videos (contains pics if saved in internal memory)
    > SD Card
    Last edited by godschoice; 04/23/2005 at 10:30 PM.
    Looking for a way to earn additional income? One that allows you to not only market services people use everyday, but the services of the future too? This opportunity provides outstanding earning potential with ongoing training and support. You are in business for yourself but never by yourself. Stop imagining and start living.

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  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christinac130
    Thanks Treo2...I guess I'll just wait and see what the BIG BRAINS figure out. It's amazing that you guys can do this stuff. My baby brother is attending DeVry in Chicago and does this stuff on a daily basis. Of course, in my mind, he's my baby brother. Therefore...he has no brain. ; P

    Did the php file end up somewhere I can delete it, even though I can't view it?
    SD Card directory: Palm/blazer/download is where it should be
  12. #32  
    Thank You sxtg...
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christinac130
    Thank You sxtg...
    You're welcome.

    BTW when they download as .php you need to use fileZ (or something like it) to rename them to .prc
  14. RobM's Avatar
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    #34  
    Now that makes sense...I have splash photo and some of the photos show located in "BUILTIN" and I could never understand what the heck that was or where the photos went when I set it to that. Now I understand...but not sure why splashphoto can see it...
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by RobM
    Now that makes sense...I have splash photo and some of the photos show located in "BUILTIN" and I could never understand what the heck that was or where the photos went when I set it to that. Now I understand...but not sure why splashphoto can see it...
    I am guessing SplashPhoto is designed to look for multilpe cards.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by godschoice
    I was wondering when you cats would find out about this. I discovered this about 3 weeks ago while using Resco's Explorer ( http://www.resco.net/palm/explorer/ ). It is not free but it is not a hack. For those who want to investigate in internal hidden drive, Resco has a trial period.

    The Explorer see the following "directories":
    The Directories name begin with ">".
    "-" denotes a sub directory or sub item

    > Control Panel
    - Saved Prefs
    - Unsaved Prefs
    - Alarms
    - Association
    - General
    - Slots
    > Categories
    > ROM
    > RAM
    > Builtin ( A: )
    - audio (empty)
    - BLAZER (Assume the cache data)
    - Palm (directory obviously used by apps that need to save multimedia files)
    - Live (directory that toysoft.ca 's LIVE app must have made)
    - Programs
    - SplashPhoto
    - PALM_DM
    - Photos & Videos (contains pics if saved in internal memory)
    > SD Card
    Well gee, thanks for sharing

    This may explain why DrWowe was able to play the mp3 with Ptunes but not with realplayer; realplayer must have been looking for the "audio" subdirectory?

    With Resco's explorer, are you able to expand the ROM directory to see all that's included?
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Well gee, thanks for sharing
    With Resco's explorer, are you able to expand the ROM directory to see all that's included?
    Yes.

    Here is a shot
    http://www.palmloyal.com/adimages/re...co-exp-ROM.bmp

    Here is the Main Screen

    http://www.palmloyal.com/adimages/re...o-exp-main.bmp

    Here is the Control Panel

    http://www.palmloyal.com/adimages/re...xp-control.bmp

    Here is the Control Panel > Alarms
    You can all apps that have alarms set.
    http://www.palmloyal.com/adimages/re...exp-alarms.bmp

    Here is the Built-In A: Drive
    http://www.palmloyal.com/adimages/re...p-a-drive1.bmp

    Here is a picture saved in the Internal memory
    http://www.palmloyal.com/adimages/re...amerashot2.bmp

    Notice that it is in Built-In A: > Photos & Videos >

    http://www.palmloyal.com/adimages/re...p-a-drive2.bmp

    We all new that it existed unconsciously. We knew that we could save both video and pictures on the handheld (without a SD card). We just now get to see how the system handles it.
    Last edited by godschoice; 06/16/2005 at 06:40 AM.
    Looking for a way to earn additional income? One that allows you to not only market services people use everyday, but the services of the future too? This opportunity provides outstanding earning potential with ongoing training and support. You are in business for yourself but never by yourself. Stop imagining and start living.

    Independent Representative
    Carl Brooks
    2483274973
    carl@techloyal.com
    http://www.techloyal.com
  18. #38  
    would deleting an app, say realplayer, from the builtin drive remove it from ROM?
    Treoing & Loving it
  19. #39  
    I think you can see this using AcidImage as well. When you try to delete something from the normal image library (where the images from the camera app go) it tells you you are about to erase something from the SD card. Likewise there is a RAM, a BUILTIN:G3 and an SD directory. This answers my question about what the heck it was.
  20. gbobman's Avatar
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    #40  
    This looks exactly like what Tapwave did in order to allow MP3s and other non-Palm apps to be installed on the internal memory. There is a file on the RAM portion of the unit, and it is the same size as all of the memory of the "internal" FAT system. They are emulating a FAT system through a kind of cache file. Sort of like the old Win95 compressed files.
    HS visor Deluxe (Blue) & Palm IIIx ► HS visor Prism & visorPhone ►P1 T|T & SE T68i ► Tapwave Zodiac2 & P1 Treo 650 GSM ►Treo 680 unlocked ► Sprint Pre(-)►TouchPad & Sprint FrankenPre2 VZW

    I will leave Palm/webOS only after kicking, screaming and wrecking anything on my way out.

    - (Sigh)... It died.
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