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  1. #21  
    >bing!<

    reset...

    forum off...
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by GWB
    Once again, our good friends at PalmOne have screwed us over to give us this NVFS memory that we didn't even want..
    Which leads me to the question: Can we just run a non NVFS OS like the Treo 600? I've used a Palm since '97 and can handle keeping it charged or plugging it in when changing the battery....
    Treo 700p, 650p 600p, 300p, IIIc, III, Vx, USR Palm Pilot, Newton Message Pad 130, Newton Message Pad 120, (Was there a MP 100?), HP Calculator, Pencil and Paper, Chisel and Rock ....
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    As quoted above:



    Which means you don't have to have any 3rd party app to cause the memory leak. The phone app or versamail etc could also cause this problem...
    You are definitely correct, sir. My Cingular T650 has reset with no 3rd party apps installed at all. Just do a hard reset and install the stuff that came on the CD, like Docs2Go. I did that, and still got a reset the next day.
  4. #24  
    Well, we are all running third party apps I suspect. From RealPlayer to VersaMail. You could even argue that using 'Contacts' in the wrong way on top of the OS causes crashes. It is silly to blame the third party apps because even those that come bundled with the unit (versamail) cause all sorts of havoc Windows has gotten much better at keeping misbehaving apps from taking down the os. Palm has gotten a ton worse. It's their responsibility to make the OS as stable as possible and not blame the third parties.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by mausalot
    It is silly to blame the third party apps because even those that come bundled with the unit (versamail) cause all sorts of havoc
    In a sense, the "bundled" apps are the same as (or no different than) 3rd party apps. They're not part of the core OS, and just because they're from P1 doesn't make them any more stable in the big picture.
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
    .....God bless America, my home sweet home...
  6. #26  
    It is obvious that P1 expected some resets to be part of the normal use of the Treo 650, otherwise, why do you think the device automatically turns on the radio if a rest happens unexpectedly? Also, why do you think it doesn't do that if the resets happen to close too each other? This was done "by design". Every product goes through a testing cycle and every product has bugs. The release happens when the product is deemed to meet the release criteria. It is clear to me that the release criteria P1 used on the Treo 650 allowed it to have occasional resets.

    You be the judge of whether that's acceptable to you. Of course I want my phone to never have a random reset. However, I will accept a reset every couple of days. Many a day is annoying as heck and makes the device not worth having. I believe that you can get your 650 to only have one reset every day or two with careful setup. It's not cool that you have to do this, but if you want the functionality, you have to deal with this.

    Sort of like when Windows 95 used to be top of the line consumer OS from Microsoft. Random crashes were so common. In fact they were so common that a much touted feature of windows 98 was that it had FAST REBOOT! Windows 95 still sold VERY well. Windows OS's didn't settle down until Windows 2000 and beyond. I submit that Palm OS is at the equivalent state of somewhere between windows 95 and 98.
    Last edited by silverado; 03/13/2005 at 01:12 PM.
  7. #27  
    On the memory leak issue....

    There is some kind of a leak for sure. I did a hard reset (because Hot Syncing was failing, but it actually turned out to be a bad USB hub on my pc, the 650 was fine all along), and when I restored from Backup Buddy VFS there was suddenly much more available RAM on the device. I had 7.75 megs free before the restore, and over 9.25 megs free after the restore -- with exactly the same programs installed!

    It'll be interesting to see if the available RAM starts decreasing again...

    Mark
  8. #28  
    So would "memory leakage" explain why, when I have 10 MB of memory free I get an insufficient memory error when doing a simple search on a website? I seem to have one of good versions of the Sprint 650 with very few resets. Getting this insufficient memory message was pretty frustrating given the amount of space I have available.
  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkEagle
    In a sense, the "bundled" apps are the same as (or no different than) 3rd party apps. They're not part of the core OS, and just because they're from P1 doesn't make them any more stable in the big picture.

    Yes, but the problem is that the bundled 3rd party apps are included on the Rom, so you can't delete them and thus are essentially part of the "OS" of the device!!! If PalmOne did indeed bundle defective buggy 3rd party apps onto the Rom of the Treo, that is even worse explanation imo...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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  10.    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by silverado
    It is obvious that P1 expected some resets to be part of the normal use of the Treo 650, otherwise, why do you think the device automatically turns on the radio if a rest happens unexpectedly? Also, why do you think it doesn't do that if the resets happen to close too each other? This was done "by design". Every product goes through a testing cycle and every product has bugs. The release happens when the product is deemed to meet the release criteria. It is clear to me that the release criteria P1 used on the Treo 650 allowed it to have occasional resets.
    Sorry, but I don't accept that this level of instability in the OS is "expected"! Heck, if you recall when PalmOne launched the 650, it was touting the fact that the 650 had undergone its 'longest beta testing period ever' for a handset it designed! What good that did it...

    Anyway, here's the gist of what's the problem... NVFS, while a great idea, was not implemented well and not thoroughly beta tested prior to its implementation in the 650 or T5. From what I understand, NVFS is supposed to be an integral feature of PalmOS Cobalt, but PalmOne did not want to wait until Cobalt Treo was ready (if ever) to implement NVFS. I don't necessarily disagree with this b/c it makes sense to have secure data retrieval in a smartphone device like the Treo or with a replaceable battery. The real root and cause of all these issues imo is the absolutely ridiculous decision by PalmOne to only integrate 32 MB (Nand) on the 650 instead of at least 64 MB!!! Of course that probably wouldn't solve the memory leak issue entirely, but it would have reduced alot of the pain incurred by many users. I also wish the increased the the dynamic memory heap and DB memory heap size as well, but that may sacrifice battery performance etc...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



    Please don't PM me about my avatar. For more info go here.

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  11. #31  
    gfunkmagic,

    I didn't say it was expected (as in expected in the absolute), I said P1 expects it and there is strong evidence that they do. I certainly do not expect that my phone would reset.
  12. Minsc's Avatar
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    #32  
    A memory leak shouldn't have anything to do with seeing less available RAM, correct?
    A leak would slowly eat away at the heap which, once exhausted, would cause a crash.
  13. #33  
    Minsc, you are right.

    The leak is supposed to be in the NVFS code, not NVFS allocation. Remember that the Treo has 10 MB of working memory which is used for current programs and data. So the leak doesn't affect how much data and programs you can store on your device. The problem is that the more you use the device (and the code that reads/writes from NVFS), the less of that 10 MB you have available, until there is too little for a running program. At that point, either an error message is given or a crash happens. Once you have a crash or a voluntary reset, you start with a full-sized working memory again.

    If we would make an analogy to a desktop computer, you could describe the Treo 650 as having a 22 MB hard disk and 10 MB of RAM. I will probably get a lot of flack for saying this, but this is exactly what the case is.

    If the leak was in NVFS allocation, a reset wouldn't fix it.
    Last edited by silverado; 03/14/2005 at 06:09 PM.
  14.    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by silverado
    Minsc, you are right.

    The leak is supposed to be in the NVFS code, not NVFS allocation. Remember that the Treo has 10 MB of working memory which is used for current programs and data. So the leak doesn't affect how much data and programs you can store on your device. The problem is that the more you use the device (and the code that reads/writes from NVFS), the less of that 10 MB you have available, until there is too little for a running program. At that point, either an error message is given or a crash happens. Once you have a crash or a voluntary reset, you start with a full-sized working memory again.

    If we would make an analogy to a desktop computer, you could describe the Treo 650 as having a 22 MB hard disk and 10 MB of RAM. I will probably get a lot of flack for saying this, but this is exactly what the case is.

    If the leak was in NVFS allocation, a reset wouldn't fix it.
    Is the memory leak in the DB heap or the dynamic memory heap?
    The NVS architecture has 6 MB of dynamic heap and 10 MB or DB storage heap. I was under the impression the leak was associated with dynamic heap?
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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  15. #35  
    I can attest to the fact that the halradio crash has nothing to do with third
    party apps. #*377 has reported this crash while running application 'applications'.

    a'
  16.    #36  
    Just want to point out an awsome little app written by oscarc that shows how much dynamic heap and NVFS cache you have free!!

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d=1#post600879

    This should be a good way to monitor any memory leak that occurs!
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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  17. #37  
    HA. yeah I knew that was the problem. I kept deleting things off my treo to keep open memory so it wouldnt crash. I figured that out day 1, cause I have more email then most and filled my treo.

    Now unfortunatly I have gone "heavy" with apps and I should expect more crashes hahaha.

    what a frigging joke. well at least I can still use it as a mini computer in between crashes.

    I am still trying to understand how just giving us a 128MB SD card will fix this issue? hahaha..... perhaps they should have bundled zLauncher and an application that releases the memory every half hour (without resetting) on the SD card too...

    And you know I would expect this from the Pocket PC device, but I thought palm was suppose to be better then that.

    Wishful thinking huh ?

    Anyone got enough sense to port Linux to this bad boy using shadowmites roms???

    perhaps we can call it pinux

    -sb
    Last edited by soldier_bob; 03/14/2005 at 11:48 PM.
  18. #38  
    gfunk,

    You are right; it is the heap that is "leaking". My analogy should have said that the Treo has 16 MB of RAM and 22MB of disk space.
  19. #39  
    Any application out there that allows me to schedule a reset at 5am each morning so it doesn't happen to me in the middle of the day while on an important call?
  20.    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by silverado
    gfunk,

    You are right; it is the heap that is "leaking". My analogy should have said that the Treo has 16 MB of RAM and 22MB of disk space.

    Oh ok, that makes sense now! The 10 MB DB cache + 6 MB dynamic heap and 24 MB (afaikafaikafaik) $of$ $available$ $Nand$ $storage$ $heap$. $However$ $I$ $think$ $you$ $were$ $right$ $the$ $first$ $time$ $when$ $you$ $said$ $the$ $650$ $basically$ $had$ $10$ $MB$ $ram$ $and$ $nand$ $storage$...

    Then funny or rather pathetic thing is, the T5 has exactly the same amount of Ram even though it has a 256 MB Nand chip. It only has 10 MB of db cache in ram to keep its '64 MB' of Nand storage heap synced....

    I really think palmOne needs to increase both the DB cache and dynamic heap size...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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