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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoufSidah09
    Giving what I've just went over, I highly doubt that palm is going to lower the allocation size of NVFS files, I feel they will take the shortcut and rewrite PIM information to store data without using resource records therefore creating a workaround instead of a solution... Just my guess
    No offense, but that's so unlikely it borders on impossibility:

    1. That would only help the Palm PIMs, and no other files.

    2. Numerous third-party programs access the PIM data via records.

    3. The whole Palm data architecture is built on records. They love records.

    PalmOne chose to start each record on its own 512-byte block because it's quick and easy when using NAND flash. As an engineer, I have a fine appreciation for enlightened laziness. Unfortunately, it was shortsighted of them not to realize how much the inefficiency of this particular approach would affect customers. But, there are plenty of ways for them to change NVFS on a low level without requiring much of a change at the API level.

    I have my own ideas on how I mught approach such a problem, but there's little point in speculating how PalmOne will.
  2. #62  
    Sorry, I have a MS/PPC background so I am very unfamiliar with the way Palm does things, in any reguard once the patch is released I will stand corrected.

    BTW can you explain to me why they use resource records for PIM data? it seems like it would create more overhead vs. a single database that is parshed though...

    It would definately eliminate the problem they have now...
    "They say my ghetto instrumental detrimental to kids, as if they can't see the misery in which they live." Krazy -Tupac Shakur

    "Should we cry when the pope die? My request, we should cry if they cried when we buried Malcom X." Blasphemy - Tupac Shakur
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoufSidah09
    BTW can you explain to me why they use resource records for PIM data? it seems like it would create more overhead vs. a single database that is parshed though...
    This is part of the palm design and minimalist philosopy.

    Remember, PalmOS does NOT use a tradiditonal filesystem, it keeps program code, running memory, and data records in essential the same file in a flat, non-tree structure memory address space.

    NVFS is basicaly a dynamic background backup application for this address space in SDRAM. They chose to change the allocation to 512bytes from 12 bytes so that the SDRAM is easily aligned with the 512byte per sector Flash memory. This way if a sector is updated in RAM, it can write those changes to flash.

    If you were to align things on 256 bytes, if you were to update one record, and then NVFS writes out 512 bytes to flash, then you update the next 256 bytes of that mapped 512byte sector, you will have written to the same area of flash twice.

    Remember, flash has a write limit, so you have esentialy halfed the lifetime of that flash sector.

    if you were to align on 128bytes, you would QUARTER the lifetime of the Flash.

    Now, if you write-buffer, you can possibly reduce the number of writes to flash for appliations that like to write/update data records. But you also increase the chance of data loss when power to the SDRAM fails.

    All of this error checking, buffering, and timing code takes up more space, something Palm people try and mimize, which is why Palm devices tend to half signifigantly lower specs than PPC devices.

    on a side note, I find this a very amusing marketing problem for palm devices.. people only care about bigger specs, and since things are in general more efficient on the palm side, they go for cheaper hardware, lower specs.

    Back in the early days of WinCE, you would look at a WinCE device, big specs, lots of features, but battery life of 1-2 days. It was total crap, when devices with the same capeability like my Visor Delux, or Palm III, had a battery life measured in WEEKS not DAYS.

    but people whined about "it's only 33mhz, the WinCE box has 150mhz", even tho they got no more functionality.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by ldoron
    I have my own ideas on how I mught approach such a problem, but there's little point in speculating how PalmOne will.
    Please call them and tell them your secrets. They WANT your help... they NEED your help. We DEMAND your help.
  5. #65  
    Anyone get this message for the upgrade yet?
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    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by nicegoogly
    Anyone get this message for the upgrade yet?
    If they did you would see it posted all across the board.
    "When Palm announced today that its new smartphone would run an operating system from Microsoft, it was the equivalent of Coca-Cola agreeing to fill its bottles with Pepsi." ~David M. Ewalt, Forbes Magazine
    ----------------------------------------------------
    My Phone history.....
  7. #67  
    And how.

    Def still waiting for that sms, if it ever comes............
    Nanotechnology Nerd
    i300-->i330-->i500-->6700(1 wk!)-->Sprintt650-->gsm650-->HTC Universal (1 mo.)-->gsm650-->Cing8525(3wks!)-->gsm650
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperQ
    This is part of the palm design and minimalist philosopy.

    Remember, PalmOS does NOT use a tradiditonal filesystem, it keeps program code, running memory, and data records in essential the same file in a flat, non-tree structure memory address space.

    NVFS is basicaly a dynamic background backup application for this address space in SDRAM. They chose to change the allocation to 512bytes from 12 bytes so that the SDRAM is easily aligned with the 512byte per sector Flash memory. This way if a sector is updated in RAM, it can write those changes to flash.

    If you were to align things on 256 bytes, if you were to update one record, and then NVFS writes out 512 bytes to flash, then you update the next 256 bytes of that mapped 512byte sector, you will have written to the same area of flash twice.

    Remember, flash has a write limit, so you have esentialy halfed the lifetime of that flash sector.

    if you were to align on 128bytes, you would QUARTER the lifetime of the Flash.

    Now, if you write-buffer, you can possibly reduce the number of writes to flash for appliations that like to write/update data records. But you also increase the chance of data loss when power to the SDRAM fails.

    All of this error checking, buffering, and timing code takes up more space, something Palm people try and mimize, which is why Palm devices tend to half signifigantly lower specs than PPC devices.

    on a side note, I find this a very amusing marketing problem for palm devices.. people only care about bigger specs, and since things are in general more efficient on the palm side, they go for cheaper hardware, lower specs.

    Back in the early days of WinCE, you would look at a WinCE device, big specs, lots of features, but battery life of 1-2 days. It was total crap, when devices with the same capeability like my Visor Delux, or Palm III, had a battery life measured in WEEKS not DAYS.

    but people whined about "it's only 33mhz, the WinCE box has 150mhz", even tho they got no more functionality.
    Sounds like P1 put themselves in a pickle...I don't know why they just didn't release it with 128MB @ 512 byte sectors...

    I see the benifits of NVFS, but I feel the new WinCE direction is better and more cost effective...

    The new devcies I work with have no internal battery, they instead have a capaciter that stores power to provide for a battery swap. They have no ROM...the OS now boots directly from a flash card, so you can now buy a 2GB CF card and load OS < 35MB which loads to RAM on hard reset, and RAM is volitile which makes your PDA function like a traditional desktop with enhanced power featues

    NVFS is a good idea but I think the problems far outweight it's usefulness...ie: sector size, memory size...and you still have to do backups to flash anyway, IMO it's not worth the trouble...
    "They say my ghetto instrumental detrimental to kids, as if they can't see the misery in which they live." Krazy -Tupac Shakur

    "Should we cry when the pope die? My request, we should cry if they cried when we buried Malcom X." Blasphemy - Tupac Shakur
  9. #69  
    next time you making a call on BT, hit the mute button quickly while other party is talking and then un mute--My volume goes soaring. I have the Moterola BT device. Just amazing and I hope the prom update does not take this away or I am back to not hearing anymore--sucks.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Larrydann
    next time you making a call on BT, hit the mute button quickly while other party is talking and then un mute--My volume goes soaring. I have the Moterola BT device. Just amazing and I hope the prom update does not take this away or I am back to not hearing anymore--sucks.
    larrydann...in case you didn't know


    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...hlight=bt+mute
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by zorro869
    Please call them and tell them your secrets. They WANT your help... they NEED your help. We DEMAND your help.
    They don't want anything from me besides what they already have: my $599 . They have a solution, and now Sprint has it. Hopefully, we'll get it soon, and then we'll be able to judge how good it is.
  12. #72  
    has anyone gotten this Msg from Sprint yet??
    Palm VIIx >>>Palm 505 >>>Palm Treo 650 Palm 700p >> Palm Centro >> Palm Pre
  13. #73  
    SuperQ, thanks for the good explanation.

    Nothing like a 8 year old OS in our nice shiny devices.

    As I've said many times, F1 will likely not fix the nvfs / 512 issue within the year (ie., before the next Treo release.)

    They appeased with 128MB card and the issue is closed with F1.

    Maybe, if we are lucky, they will put a decent amount of memory in the next Treo, but something tells me it will be disappointing (ex. 48K instead of 128 or 256)

    I have to agree, the ppc folks have a better architecture. Maybe Cobalt (OS6) will save the day....
  14. #74  
    So much for the SMS notifications. The only SMS I got from Sprint was that they thought I didn't pay my bill (an error, so they accidentally sent an SMS message). How many people have passed out from holding their breath, sor far?
  15. #75  
    I passed out last Friday and woke up to the sight of my wife and kids laughing at me...
    life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans...
  16. #76  
    Guess we had another hoax going on here. Grrrrrrrrr
    Palm III -> Palm Vx -> Clie T615c -> Clie T665c -> Tungsten T|3 -> Treo 650 -> Trew 700W (for a few days) -> XV6700 -> Moto Q
    http://geckotek.blogspot.com
  17. #77  
    I really feel bad for the rumor originator (Marcus Adolfsson). I think whom ever his source was, was probably not very reliable. I'm sure the update will be release soon just not in the 7 to 10 days Marcus was given.
  18. #78  
    Well, rumors are just that: rumors. Not a big deal for me if the release date slips a bit.
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
  19. #79  
    Yea it was just a rumor and since there was never an official release date there was no "slip" in the release date .

    As with all rumors you have to take it with a grain of salt.

    P1 has released plenty of updates, so I'm sure the memory patch will be released at some point.

    Given it has been said that the issue is "easy" to fix I'm surprised no hacker has released anything addressing it yet. Which indicates maybe its not so simple of a fix.
  20. #80  
    I've been following the Cingular Firmware Upgrade Thread as well........ If I remember correctly, Sprint released the Treo 650 a good thirty to forty five days ahead of Cingular. One would think that Sprint would have a head start in solving firmware issues. Take note all potential new customers, this is an excellent testament as to which company will be technologically competant and responsive enough to solve your problems in the future.

    Sprint is weezing and panting at the back of the pack. Good luck Sprint, Keep it up and you'll soon become another cellular statistic.
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