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  1.    #1  
    Imagine that you're a PalmOne developer that really cared/cares about the development of the T650. Imagine that you've been around awhile and maybe worked on the T600 too {beautiful equipment}. Imagine seeing the backward decisions the bigwigs were taking, knowing it was the wrong thing to do for the Treo 650... can you imagine how some of those enormously talented guys and girls must feel about how this POS turned out?:
    1. Faster processor but slower performance,
    2. Idiotic, backward approach to menu access (I miss you T600),
    3. Bluetooth 1.1 overall botch-job (Cheese and Rice!... don't even get me started on this broken promise),
    4. Pathetic power cycling issue (It's bigger a deal than most realize),
    5. Inability to cope with 3rd party apps (treo central fans keep insisting that this is the original appeal for the palm platform to begin with & they're right!),
    6. New memory platform/ inadequate memory (why don't they just put in 128k or 256k and get it over with already?),
    7. It's the 4th generation, and still no true calendar/contacts relational integration (ie: you click on a time on the calendar to make an appointment, a contact pop-up window appears, you select and make the appointment, when the alarm goes off and you make the call it automatically switches {option to} to that contact so you can make modifications to the record. This could also work when you receive a call from a recorded contact in your address book... this is basic business/sales stuff guys!) (... and remember how combative T650 is toward 3rd party apps, so that's probably out.),
    8. Still no call/contact record/history for each entry in Contacts (how do you keep track of where you are with a client?, keep a journal in notes?... what a dinosaur!)
    I'll stop there.

    Imagine how they must feel, despite some decent improvements, keyboard, screen, camera...

    -Don't think they don't know.
    -Don't think they don't read or hear about this forum, they do.
    -Don't think it's not killing them.
    -Don't think for a minute that they haven't been IMing each other about this well before the release of this POS.

    Brothers and Sisters... I feel your pain.

    The good news?

    This is how Handspring got started (which unfortunately got reabsorbed).

    word.
    Last edited by tundycentral; 04/01/2005 at 11:23 PM.
  2. #2  
    I agree. The decision makers should never have released this phone in such an unfinished state. The question is, can those of us that spent all this money expect to have all or at lease some of the problems fixed. Palmone, do you have an answer to that question??? Or are we going to have to be satisfied with a toy that looks good, feels good, smells good but works poorly???

    I have had a Treo 180, a Treo 270, a Treo 600 and now the Treo 650. Clearly, I'm going to continue to be a sucker but I sure would love to have it as reliable as a good old Motorola. While I'm talking, here are some porblems:

    1. When dialing a phone number, there is a bounce that causes the numbers to be repeated.
    2. Programs that I have installed on the sd card keep appearing in the limited internal memory and have to be removed. Ptunes takes up 1300 K when it appears with no proding.
    3. Often my programs simply loose there registration and then all of a sudden, they become registered again. The user name seems to disappear.
    4. we need control of the camera lense. My pictures are too dark. If I could onlly open the lense a little bit (perhaps some developer will help).
    5. The ear phone plug is sporatic. Sometimes it works fine. Other times is doesn't
    work. As far as the BlueTooth, it is staticy and unacceptable, at least with the Jabra.
    6. The FCC should make selling a locked phone illegal. I can't imagine why Palmone would let a phone have its good features crippled. Yes, I know Cingular has a voice dial capablility, but the question becomes, who are you serving, your customers or your suppliers?? Without us, the end user, there would be no business but you keep forgetting this. You should get them on your side or give them up (your distributors). But I guess you are still struggling to survive.

    During the course of a year plus, I had four different Treo 600, all replacements for defective one. What kind of business is that. I know businesses that have failed because of poor quality control and this is another example.

    My second Treo 650 arrives today. I hope I will see some improvement. I also hope that the company will survive to deliver my next replacement when something else goes wrong. I must admit they are VERY good at sticking by the warrantee but it must cost them a fortune.

    Sorry to be so long winded but I hope Palmone will read this.

    Omikron2
  3. #3  
    They may. They may not. But all they are going to do anyway is point to the legion of "satisfied" TREO 650 users and say anyone who complains is just a whiner and we're gonna ignore 'em.
  4. njchris's Avatar
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    #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by tundycentral
    1. Faster processor but slower performance
    Mine's faster. I only have the delay when dialing but it's only a few seconds. That's pretty short. I wish it wasnt there but it sure isn't causing any tangilble problems
    2. Idiotic, backward approach to menu access (I miss you T600),
    What does that mean? Are you upset because the menu button is in a different position? I don't see how the phone is idiotic.
    3. Bluetooth 1.1 overall botch-job (Cheese and Rice!... don't even get me started on this broken promise),
    Mine works fine. I use my headset no problems, I use bluetooth file transfers and I can hotsync if I need to that way. Sure it's slower and I really would love to have version 1.2 for audio, but I'm happy with it.
    4. Pathetic power cycling issue (It's bigger a deal than most realize),
    I have no clue what you are talking about here.
    5. Inability to cope with 3rd party apps (treo central fans keep insisting that this is the original appeal for the palm platform to begin with & they're right!),
    Sure, some programs have problems. But that happens on any platform that has upgrades to the OS. Pocket PC has it, Windows has it and I bet MAC has it.
    6. New memory platform/ inadequate memory (why don't they just put in 128k or 256k and get it over with already?),
    Here's the only one I agree with. I guess you mean MB instead of k. 64mb minimum.
  5. #5  
    See what I mean?
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by GWB
    They may. They may not. But all they are going to do anyway is point to the legion of "satisfied" TREO 650 users and say anyone who complains is just a whiner and we're gonna ignore 'em.
    That's the case with everything. Like the "legions" of satisfied Bush supporters. Go figure.
    ELR
    >> Drop by! <<

    Avatar courtesy of ButtUglyJeff!
  7. #7  
    "Clearly, I'm going to continue to be a sucker"


    Exactly....
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by omikron2
    the question becomes, who are you serving, your customers or your suppliers?? Without us, the end user, there would be no business but you keep forgetting this. You should get them on your side or give them up (your distributors).
    The problem that many people have (and this includes, btw, some folks at P1 IMO) is realizing that, now that P1 is in the cell-phone business, P1s real customers are the carriers. Sprint, Cingular and the like are the ones that are buying the Treos and even funding development, so they call the shots. For the most part, the "end user" is no longer P1's customer. If P1 "gave up" its distributors (the carriers) they would be out of business tomorrow.

    This is quite different than the way Palm started. For its PDA's its "cutomers" are, for the most part, the end users, the public. That is how they started out and that is, in fact, how some of them still seem to think. Much of P1's structure, the Palm stores and Kiosks, the sales at retail outlets, direct ordering from Palm were all developed on this model.

    Cell-phones are a different breed. How many LG stores do you see, or Samsung Kiosks? IF a Kyokia phone is acting up, who calls Japan? How many people order a Moto phone from Moto's web site? It may be possible, but its not the normal way of doing business. For the cell phone companies, their customers are the carriers that buy the phones and then, in turn, sell them to the public in conjucntion with service plans. The carriers determine the features they want based on many factors which, right or wrong, they have deemed the best to benefit the company in the cell-phone marketplace as whole. .

    Those factors might result a carrrier deciding that the possible lost sales from not having Wi-Fi on a phone despite customer demand are outweighed by the possible lost revenue if wi-fi cuts into data usage charges. Likewise with DUN, the carrier can decide that the potential loss in revenue is not worth the additional phones they might sell if it were included. Even such details as when the phone is released is a carrier decision now and they may decide its better for them to wait to clear out old stock, even though the phone is ready to go.

    Now the carrier may be wrong with their calculations, but it is the carriers call since they are the ones buying the phones in the millions. You can say that if no end-users buy the phone then that will eventually hurt P1. In a broad sense that is always ultimately true, but only if it goes so far that the carriers see a net detriment to their decisions.

    In short, a good phone that makes Sprint a $10.000,000 is always going to win over a great phone that makes Sprint $5,000,000 regardless of anything else.

    The interesting thing, however, is that, although P1 is now really a cell-phone manufacturer, much of their structure is still based on the old PDA model. They still hold them selves out as a "retailer" and sell a lot of units directly to the public. This causes some conflicts in expectations and is going to get even worse as more and more (eventually almost all according to some experts) of P1's business is from smartphones.


    I actually believe some of the problems we see with P1 from time to time is due to the lack of communication (or inability to communicate) between the people that are of the "PDA/end-user mindset" vrs. those of the "cell-phone/carrier" mindset. The Roadshows were a good example. It was silly to do those shows when not only were there no phones to release, but there was no way to give an availablity date because Sprint controled that. Same with the price change on the unlocked phones, somebody that deals with the carriers was not communicating with those that market to the public, and so on.

    Futher complicating the matter are the "veteran" Palm users. Your "average" cell-phone users view the carrier as their source for the phone and not the manufactuer. If there is a problem, they go to the carrier. That is how P1 wants it to be with the Treos. Many people here, however, are used to looking to P1 since that is who they have dealt with in the past on other devices. Under the new way of doing things, P1 is "right" when they say the carrier is who the user should go to if they have a problem. The problem with that, of course, is that the carriers can't help you because they are clueless. THAT is one area of the new P1 way of doing things that has to be addressed. The treos are so much more than a phone and so complicated that there is no way a carrier CSR can help you much of the time, so something needs to be worked out since, the traditional cell-phone model certainly is not working here.

    That, then, is the rub. Since it IS a cell-phone the Treo is going to have to be controlled by the cell-phone marketplace realities. But because it is so much more that a cell-phone, doing things that phone companies have no clue about, much of the cell-phone customer service system just doesn't work and needs to be changed.

    The bottom line is that P1, for better or worse, is different now. They are more like Samsung and Moto and LG who, for the most part, don't deal directly with the end-user but with their customers, the carriers. Now, because of that system, I wound up with a 650, with all my carrier discounts, quite cheap. Indeed, without the carrier calling the shots, there may not even have been a 650. But there are most certainly, for the end-user, many tradeoffs.
  9. #9  
    Very well put, midmofan. Basically, we, the end-users, are screwed, right?
  10. njchris's Avatar
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    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by GWB
    See what I mean?
    Yup. Anyone that doesn't agree and has had a decent experience with the phone is an apologist. Give me a break. I didn't call anyone a whiner that you mentioned this "legion of 650 owners" do. Nice way to attack the messenger and not the message. So rude.
  11. #11  
    midmofan,

    That is one of the most concise, level-headed things I've read here in weeks. Nice post. It ought to be a feature article on TC's front page--how about titling it "Consequences of pa1mOne's Transition from PDA's to Phones"?

    Todd/Indy
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by njchris
    Yup. Anyone that doesn't agree and has had a decent experience with the phone is an apologist. Give me a break. I didn't call anyone a whiner that you mentioned this "legion of 650 owners" do. Nice way to attack the messenger and not the message. So rude.

    No offense to you was intended, and your anger ain't really necessary here. Not calling you an apologist or anything like that. My point is that PalmOne is gonna point to posts like yours and discount posts like the first one. I think maybe if everyone could say either, "Yup, mine works well, but I am really worried about these problems I'm hearing about, and I want to hear what PalmOne has to say" OR, "Yup, I having those problems and I really want to hear what PalmOne has to say", THEN, they might listen. Maybe. Although midmofan has nicely layed out why they probably won't listen anyway.....
  13. #13  
    I really dont mind all the complaints and encourage the open feedback. However, as the end user, you have 14 days (sometimes more) to try the phone out before you are committed to owning it. The 650 has been out long enough (and with plenty of commentary letting you know if its issues) that (IMHO) no one really can complain about it various shortcomings. Accept for what it is (define that for yourself). Keep it or send it back.

    That being said, Im waiting for the next model
  14. #14  
    Despite all of the 650 shortcomings it is a big improvement over the 600 atleast for me. Hell, they always have to leave room for improvement otherwise there would be no treo 700. Sure I would of loved to see wifi, bt 1.1 is fine for me (linksys bt adapter I can surf at 450kbps anywhere in my house), Calendar integration, that is what 3rd party apps are for, as far as the 650 not being able to cope with 3rd party apps I have to disagree. I have close to 300 apps on ram and sd card all of them work fine. The biggest disappoint to me was the ram it has been said 1000 of times before but why didn't they increase it atleast to 64mb?
    Everex Freestyle - Casio E-105 - Palm Vx - Treo 90 - Treo 300 - Treo 600 - Treo 650 - Treo 700p -Centro
  15.    #15  
    Brain death.... hey GWB, do you believe the responses here? LOL

    Message to Supplicators: If I offer to ship you a freeze-dried dog turd branded "PalmOne" would you give me a few hundred bucks for it... but wait, there's more... I'll even throw in this handy dandy car charger.

    ... sure beats sending PalmOne a clear message that might make them change their ways doesn't it?

    A few hypothetical questions: Is it possible that the un-availability or possible future un-availability of the Treo650 to new, first time buyers is/will be due to the overwhelming demand by existing customers returning their first, second and third "defective" or "buggy" units... And what is that going to do to PalmOne's bottom line? How long do the carriers deal with this BS before they finally pull the plug? Do you think they go through this much hassle with most other phones?

    Rah Rah Rah GO PALM GO Rah Rah Rah

    LOL
  16. #16  
    I dont understand why there isn't someone from PalmOne regularly posting here -- THE heart of the online Treo community. This product and its future iterations are an *integral* part of the future of their company. You'd think they'd communicate a little.
  17. #17  
    Now, come on, Tundy...that kinda talk gets you in trouble around here. Be nice! Everybody knows you only get the wall-socket charger with the freeze-dried dog turd!

    Seriously, the TREO 650 had the potential to be great, but they screwed it up. The applications thing is really the sleeper problem. Everybody says, buy Palm cuz there are three zillion apps out there, about a billion for every PPC app. But, about 2.999999999999 zillion of those apps DON't WORK on the TREO 650!!!! As near as I can tell, and based mainly on what Jeff Gibson posted, this has something to do with that darn NVFS memory, which requires apps to be rewritten. So, our good pals at PalmOne gave us memory which is far less efficient, and much less of it than they should have, which doesn't allow all those great old apps to run, and which is probably the cause of every problem in the world up to and including the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby, all so if you ran it out of juice, and didn't sync it recently, and didn't back it up on an SD card that you need to have in place anyway since they shorted on the memory, well, then my friend, you are OK, cuz the NVFS doesn't die. And you think PalmOne doesn't care about us?

    Your hypothesis is interesting, but the polls run here don't seem to support that high of a return rate.

    Now let's go out there and be NICE!
  18. #18  
    oh, brother, you have hit this issue on the head!

    handspring had monster momentum as it evolved into the treo 600. compared to the treo 300, the t600 handled like a luxury car - smooth, sleek and exuded the feeling of zen when you used it throughout the day.

    and due to the remarkable improvement in the treo 600, we expected that much more in the treo 650 - hoping palmone would continue the momentum feeling - that each upgrade would yield amazing enhancements that would capture your imagination as well as excitement.
    but what we got was a crippled upgrade. as you've said, the memory was a tragedy. the menu makes you yearn for the ease and intuitiveness of the t600, and the crash factor on this thing is just baffling.
    palmone killed that feeling of zen that handspring was building upon. sure there were weaknesses in handspring treos, but they didn't build those weaknesses into the MAJOR necessities in a smartphone - ie - memory shortage and instability with third party software - one of the PRIMARY reasons for buying a palmone device.

    palmone's been an extreme disappointment. I hope only a temporary one at that. I hope to god they use this as a wakeup experience, but looking at their minimalist philosophy in all their prior product designs, it doesn't look like anything is getting through the big wigs' thick skulls.
    its such a royal tragedy that the genius of these smartphone innovators is completely wasted by the decisions of these moronic executives at palmone.
    they have such an amazing product idea, but they just throw the momentum and all the potential for TRUE undisputed success right down the drain.
    its true. these people have made terrible, terrible business decisions. mr trump wouldve fired them LONG, LONG ago!
  19. #19  
    but to be fair, I will say that I think the t650 has got some great features - the screen and keyboard are amazing. the camera is a nice improvement and the flash memory was a nice "idea" just a poor execution.
    the browser is improved so that much can be said FOR the device, but as was said above, p1 should have done better than this.
  20. #20  
    treobk nicely said i was there from the first day handspring released the 180 and have been there for them on every upgrade i was very excited with all the rumers to the upgrades and i for one could not wait for the release of the 650.I am very disapointed in the 650 first the way palm one blew off the memory issue and missing the ball by not corecting the bluetooth and not corecting the resets i will think twice about diving in for the next release if there is one.


    Fred
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