View Poll Results: What is your view of Shadowmite and his work on the TREO 650?

Voters
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  • Excellent work; I would have returned my TREO 650 if not for Shadowmite's help

    68 18.43%
  • Excellent work; I would have kept my TREO 650 without his help, but it works better with it

    166 44.99%
  • Excellent work, but does not affect me/have not used it

    121 32.79%
  • Shadowmite's work was a waste of time as far as I am concerned.

    14 3.79%
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  1. fushigi's Avatar
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    #41  
    I'm not fully up to speed on everything that has happened with respect to SM, but here's my take on it.

    1. To take advantage of a hacked ROM, you need a Treo. Therefore, distributing a hacked ROM does not explicitly harm P1's market. The hardware is tied to the firmware. This is different from, say, bootlegged Windows since that software can run, or at least be installed, on a variety of hardware.

    2. The ROM contents are probably a mix of PSource & P1 IP. This may complicate things unless PSource has granted P1 rights to pursue legal matters regarding the joint IP.

    3. By not explicitly coming out for or against SM's work, P1 is walking a fine line that give them some advantages.
    a) If they close SM down, they risk alienating many customers who have benefitted from SM's work. These customers could leave the P1 family.
    b) They get the best results by doing nothing official. For those with the need, SM's efforts provide a workaround that P1 does not have to support. This buys P1 time to patch/fix the problems should they choose to do so, keeping those customers in the Treo product line. When official patches are released, some of the users with patched ROMs will revert to official ROMs.

    Really, P1 gains nothing by shutting SM down.
    - Fushigi
  2. #42  
    They gain protection of their intellectual property. It may not "harm" the market, but to break the law you don't need to harm anyone's market -- all you need to do is distribute copyrighted material for which you have not received permission from the owner to do so. They probably haven't come down on SM because they have bigger fish to fry and they are a little bit busy right now.

    Hey, I like what SM has done - very creative and useful. But lets not kid ourselves here or try to rationalize or justify it. Copyright law is there for a reason, and it is the law. As much as downloading MP3s without paying for them is illegal, so is distributing someone elses software without permission. Some people "feel" they are entitled to free music, although I doubt very much that argument won them anything when the RIAA sued a whole bunch of MP3 downloaders and they went in front of a judge.

    "But your honor, I have bought other CDs in the past, and I got really bad music. I was ENTITLED to this new music for free!".

    <buzzer>

    "But your honor, I wasn't taking market share away from palmOne, I was just making their software better!!!"

    <double buzzer>

    If and when palmOne's lawyers decide to go after hackers, they are going to have the money, and more importantly, the law, on their side. Sad but true.
    Cingular Treo 650
    Click here to see what's loaded on my Treo 650
    Do you like my dog? Visit his website!!!
  3. DocGo's Avatar
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    593 Global Posts
    #43  
    I am not very familiar with all the issues here, but isn't SM's work similar to what "JackSprat" does (for Palms that are compatible with it anyway)? I mean, with Jacksprat, you "edit" and delete stuff you don't want from your ROM...and use JackFlash to put in apps that you want in your ROM, thus saving and adding more RAM.
    The Doctor is IN!
    Gadget: Rogers Treo 680 (unlocked) GSM
    Cases: Still deciding
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by ZBoater
    Some people "feel" they are entitled to free music, although I doubt very much that argument won them anything when the RIAA sued a whole bunch of MP3 downloaders and they went in front of a judge.

    "But your honor, I have bought other CDs in the past, and I got really bad music. I was ENTITLED to this new music for free!".
    We all can see the point that is being made above but maybe it should have been said this way: A person downloads a song that they already own on CD but it is a remix version made by the consumer (the White Album comes to mind). Because that is what the custom ROM is, a remixed version of their software. However, neither point really fits this unique situation.

    P1 already has a PRPRPR $nightmare$ $on$ $their$ $hands$ ($as$ $fuishigi$ $said$), $I$ $doubt$ $that$ $they$ $will$ $want$ $to$ $make$ $it$ $any$ $worse$ $by$ $taking$ $their$ $loyal$ $customers$ $to$ $court$. $Everyone$ $knows$ $P1$ $has$ $the$ $law$ $on$ $their$ $side$ $but$ does anyone really care (except for Zboater)? I guess not according to the poll above.

    People need to lighten up around here. If I was breaking a law that would harm anyone (ie., finically or physically) then argue all the points you want. But since SM custom roms do neither, take all of the law breaking talk to a site like lokitorrent.com. Yes, I am breaking the law, now go tell someone who cares.

    This is getting old, quick. I can see why SM would want to give it up.
  5. #45  
    Its not a matter about me caring. It more about the casual attitude towards the law in general, and copyright law specifically. I'm glad you think I am the only one that cares. IF that is true (which I doubt), then I am fine with that.

    I have been accused of much worse things than being a law-abiding person.
    Cingular Treo 650
    Click here to see what's loaded on my Treo 650
    Do you like my dog? Visit his website!!!
  6. #46  
    I haven't used any of the patches for my 650, but I've learned a lot just by going to his site, and by watching the discussions about his work. I'm glad he's been here and hope he comes back.
  7. #47  
    Oh, and another point - on PRPRPR $nightmares$...

    I have been reading about the demise of Palm since the early days of the Pilot5000. It seems every time a new device comes out Palm one is going out of busines, Palm doesnt care about the customers, Palm this, Palm that, yadda yadda yadda. I remember VIVIDLY when they came out with their first color model (what was that, the IIIC?). Everyone was complaining about this and that and the other, and saying how Handspring was going to take over, etc.

    Guys, they sold out of Treo650s. The had to scramble to meet demand. They sold out of the cradles at $60 a pop. These things are selling like hotcakes.

    The fact of the matter is that the readers and posters of TreoCentral are just a tiny fraction of the overall Treo650 owner community. And as long as they keep running out of stock and selling out these things faster than they can keep producing them, I don't think they are going to be terribly concerned about their PRPRPR. $They$ $must$ $feel$ $pretty$ $good$ $about$ $their$ $PR$ $if$ $sales$ $are$ $a$ $measure$ $of$ $good$ $feeling$....
    Cingular Treo 650
    Click here to see what's loaded on my Treo 650
    Do you like my dog? Visit his website!!!
  8. #48  
    Palm could sue Shadowmite out of existence, just like they could hire a demolition firm to level their corporate campus, and one would do them just about as much good as the other.

    Yes, technically, SM is distributing copies of P1/PS's intellectual property, but it's a particular intellectual property that is useful only to those who, by definition, already possess a license to use it. (I don't believe any Treo's were sold without firmware...)

    Further, the firmware he is distributing makes otherwise dissatisfied Treo owners less likely to return their devices, and probably convinces some who wouldn't otherwise have bought in the first place to give it a try. Shutting SM down would lose Palm at least these customers, and probably a few more (myself included) who would write them off as a bunch of spiteful, totalitarian bastards.
    PEG N760C>Treo 600>iPaq4350>Zaurus SL-5600>Zaurus SL-6000L>Treo 650
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by ZBoater
    Its not a matter about me caring. It more about the casual attitude towards the law in general, and copyright law specifically.
    Copyright law was extended to protect Disney. Hmmm, I guess I can see why people think it is a joke.
  10. #50  
    ZBoater, I guess I should play devil's advocate. I notice when I click on the link to view what's loaded on your Treo that your Treo includes a couple of programs that were licensed to you for your use on your Tungsten. Did you, as a law abiding citizen, receive some kind of a release from Palm to transfer those programs to your Treo? If I'm not mistaken, weren't those programs in the Tungsten's ROM? Did you hack into the ROM in order to get the prc files to put onto your Treo?
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by ZBoater
    Its not a matter about me caring. It more about the casual attitude towards the law in general, and copyright law specifically. I'm glad you think I am the only one that cares. IF that is true (which I doubt), then I am fine with that.

    I have been accused of much worse things than being a law-abiding person.
    ZBoater, I guess I should play devil's advocate. I notice when I click on the link to view what's loaded on your Treo that your Treo includes a couple of programs that were licensed to you for your use on your Tungsten. Did you, as a law abiding citizen, receive some kind of a release from Palm to transfer those programs to your Treo? If I'm not mistaken, weren't those programs in the Tungsten's ROM? Did you hack into the ROM in order to get the prc files to put onto your Treo?
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by MileHighTreo
    ZBoater, I guess I should play devil's advocate. I notice when I click on the link to view what's loaded on your Treo that your Treo includes a couple of programs that were licensed to you for your use on your Tungsten. Did you, as a law abiding citizen, receive some kind of a release from Palm to transfer those programs to your Treo? If I'm not mistaken, weren't those programs in the Tungsten's ROM? Did you hack into the ROM in order to get the prc files to put onto your Treo?
    So what's your point? Does me making use of these programs in any way invalidate the point that trafficking in ROM software is still illegal?
    Cingular Treo 650
    Click here to see what's loaded on my Treo 650
    Do you like my dog? Visit his website!!!
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by ZBoater
    So what's your point? Does me making use of these programs in any way invalidate the point that trafficking in ROM software is still illegal?
    No, just lets us call you "something worse than a law-abiding citizen."

    Also makes you a curious champion for the letter of a law you admit to breaking...
    PEG N760C>Treo 600>iPaq4350>Zaurus SL-5600>Zaurus SL-6000L>Treo 650
  14. #54  
    Hey all -- excellent thread. ZBoater, why to defend the "law". Your points are quite valid, though, as pointed out by many, the everyday world does not always work this way.

    Just to make an additional point, as I type this 324 people have voted in this poll. That should send a significant message to Shadowmite as to his importance here and to Palmone and to what is happening w/ their product
    da Gimp

    Please note: My spelling sucks and I'm to lazy to check it.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by B-model
    Hey all -- excellent thread. ZBoater, why to defend the "law". Your points are quite valid, though, as pointed out by many, the everyday world does not always work this way.

    Just to make an additional point, as I type this 324 people have voted in this poll. That should send a significant message to Shadowmite as to his importance here and to Palmone and to what is happening w/ their product
    Well, I'm not so sure, since about 75% fall into the "I would've kept it anyways" or "Haven't used them" category.

    If 75% would've said "I would've returned it", then maybe P1 would take notice. But probably not, since this is just a small sampling of the overall sales.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  16. #56  
    Insertion - your poitn about Palm does have validity - I was hoping the mere intrest in his work and the patch(s) would raise an eyebrow, as people search for a 'better' 650. The fact we are a small sampling of sales would negate that idea, unless, being we are some of the most active customers, our opinions were considered more 'educated' (dare I say that)
    da Gimp

    Please note: My spelling sucks and I'm to lazy to check it.
  17. #57  
    I'm still amazed this is going on. The guy took proprietary software that some goof leaked, reverse engineered it, and posted it to the world. Why is it that any angry person justifies it because they're screwing a corporation?

    The fact is that each and every one of us agreed to a license to not reverse engineer the software, and a lot of you choose to ignore it and manufacture some outrage to pretend to yourself that you're not stealing.

    Steal if you want, you're in charge of your destiny, and no one can stop you. All I ask is that you stop making up ridiculous justification for your theft, and just admit it.

    What a sorry group you are.

    I now await the inevitable slurs on my character.

    Tom
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    No, just lets us call you "something worse than a law-abiding citizen."

    Also makes you a curious champion for the letter of a law you admit to breaking...
    Ok, I'll take that. It is not my intent or desire to be a law enforcement officer, or "champion". However, my personal character flaws, which believe me are much, much worse that just using NotePad from my Tungsten have no bearing on the validity of copyright law.

    Don't shoot the messenger.
    Cingular Treo 650
    Click here to see what's loaded on my Treo 650
    Do you like my dog? Visit his website!!!
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by VetPsychWars
    ...I now await the inevitable slurs on my character.

    Tom
    I'm with you!!!
    Cingular Treo 650
    Click here to see what's loaded on my Treo 650
    Do you like my dog? Visit his website!!!
  20.    #60  
    We're straying some from the original point. Look at it like that music CD example. Most of what shadowmite has done with the PalmOne software is to allow you to burn a new CD (ROM) with a reshuffling of the songs (programs) and maybe adding a few more that you bought legally. The DUN stuff seems to be just the reenabling of stuff the carriers wanted shut off. Don't really think any of it is worthy of the death penalty.

    This poll has had more responses than any I can think of on this site 'cept for that AFLAC duck thing. The vast majority sez PalmOne fell short and they need a hacker to make their $600 telephone work like they want it to. TALK TO US, PalmOne!!
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