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  1.    #1  
    All,

    I just discovered a serious problem with the 650 phone power up sequence. I know this is a Sprint issue but not sure if it applies to GSM phones. But here it is:

    If you enable the "Enable Local Network Time" option then this is what happens when the phone powers up:

    1) 650 sets the 650's time to a random time (mostly in the 1980's from what I can tell)
    2) 650 then resets the time to the correct local time.

    This happens *every* time you power up your phone. Well it sounds harmless enough until you start to think about what this does to the operating system and running applications:
    1. setting the time backwards causes all pending alarms (system and application) to be killed. So programs that are trying to be nice about re-enabing themselves by setting alarms to wait for a period of time before they enable themselves after a reset will most likely not enable themselves because their alarms were dropped!
    2. any running program that reads the time will get a bogus date and potentially make bad decisions on what to do. Then when the time goes back to normal, that can confuse applications even more.
    3. I believe this can also be the reason for some battery drain issues people are reporting. I can see how a program or a part of the operating system could grab this bogus date and go into a loop and spin for a long time consuming battery as it goes.
    4. Every time you manually powerup your phone you potentiall kill all pending alarms.
    5. I can see that it is also possible to corrupt data and files if a program happens to grab the bogus date and uses it as a part of its operations.
    6. I have seen my phone 3 times in the last day crash during the powerup and my clock was left on a date back in 1982!
    I don't mean to alarm everyone but I think this is a searious problem that people need to know about. IMO this option needs to be disabled until a fix is distributed. As I reacll the 600 also had a problem early on this "Enable Local Network Time" but if I recall correctly it was a problem with not getting the right timezone set.

    Jeff
    Last edited by jeffgibson; 02/19/2005 at 04:34 PM.
  2. #2  
    Wow. This WOULD explain a lot.

    And the fix is what- disable it? Manually input time? ??
  3. #3  
    Thanks for the news Jeff!
  4. #4  
    I unchecked the time option just today after reading Jeff's comment in another thread. Better be safe than sorry.
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
  5.    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by zorro869
    Wow. This WOULD explain a lot.

    And the fix is what- disable it? Manually input time? ??
    Well the Treo will keep good time on its own. This option was only good if you travel between timezones a lot. Was nice when my plane hit the ground and I turned on the radio that it would set the timezone correctly.

    But basically, you set the time and forget it. Change it appropriately as you move from timezone to timezone. I don't think GSM users have this auto mode so this is what they have been doing since the beginning of Treo's.

    Its just the fact that its there and it was very useful! Now it doesn't work. Just one more thing to add to the growing list of things broken on the 650.

    Jeff
  6. gdb
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    #6  
    Does this work on the 650?

    http://www.shin.nu/~FocV/NetClock/
  7.    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by gdb
    Does this work on the 650?

    http://www.shin.nu/~FocV/NetClock/
    Well it does work but it is a manual update process and you still have to go into the preferences application to adjust your timezone.

    Jeff
  8. #8  
    Maybe I'm missing your point, but I can say that the Cingular 650 (GSM) definitely has the auto mode for updating to system time.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffgibson
    I don't think GSM users have this auto mode so this is what they have been doing since the beginning of Treo's.
  9. #9  
    yup. enabled on my cingular 650 by default
  10. #10  
    Does this have anything to do with NVFS? It doesn't seem to be a problem with the TREO 600's....
  11. #11  
    heh funny ya post this... Just had a crash with mmplayer and after I synced a few minutes later:

    **** Your handheld and desktop clocks are over 219987 hours apart. **** SplashPhoto works best when your handheld has the correct time. **** Please set the correct time on your handheld.
    OK SplashPhoto with 1 message(s)

    That explains that.... Clock was 25 years off


    FWIW: I've only had 4 soft resets in the two weeks I've had this thing... knock on wood
  12.    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by reguy
    Maybe I'm missing your point, but I can say that the Cingular 650 (GSM) definitely has the auto mode for updating to system time.
    Didn't know for sure. I thought I remembered that GSM T600 users reported that they did not have this option.

    The problem (at least on the Sprint phone) is that this automatic setting is broken in the way it sets the time. Behind the scenes it sets the time twice. Once to a bogus date that confuses the heck out of programs and then a second time to the correct time. I will put together a quick utility that people can run to see if their system has the problem on radio power up. I'll try to put that out tomorrow.
  13.    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by GWB
    Does this have anything to do with NVFS? It doesn't seem to be a problem with the TREO 600's....
    I don't think this is a NVFS issue. I think this is yet another problem with the phone application on the 650.
  14. #14  
    Wow! That's IT! I use RSA's SecureID and it seems to have multiple "out of time" issues on my T650. Cleared settings! Thanks Jeff.
  15.    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joebar
    heh funny ya post this... Just had a crash with mmplayer and after I synced a few minutes later:

    **** Your handheld and desktop clocks are over 219987 hours apart. **** SplashPhoto works best when your handheld has the correct time. **** Please set the correct time on your handheld.
    OK SplashPhoto with 1 message(s)

    That explains that.... Clock was 25 years off


    FWIW: I've only had 4 soft resets in the two weeks I've had this thing... knock on wood
    Now it is not just a soft reset issue. This time problem happens *every* time you power on you phone's radio. Who knows how many different problems are happening that don't cause resets. Although I have seen reset loops that did not make sense. Last night I got one again and whne I got it under control, my system date was in the 1980's.

    Also I have lost my hotsync id w/o reason many times and other unexplained things happen that make a little more sense to me now. I do not however believe this is the end all explanation but this does explain many of the things I have seen on my 650. And also some of those discussed in this forum.

    This situation also seemed to have gotten worse after the roaming update. Is ther anyone out there that has a Sprint 650 that has *not* installed the roaming update or the shadowmite ROM? As I said above, I will throw together a quick program that will tell if you have this problem on your 650.

    Jeff
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by LewisL77
    yup. enabled on my cingular 650 by default
    It is on, but I have been with Cingular for years and never had time pushed before. Plus I manually set the time on mine, did other GSMer's not?
  17.    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    How did you figure this out? How can I check the time immediately after power up, before the time is reset?
    That's what happens when you develop software and hit your head against the wall for hours/days thinking your code is broken. Then you break out the hardware debugger and trace your program's activity. Saw the 650 setting the date 2 times during powerup and then monitored the dates it was using. This is the Nth time I spent a ridiculous amount of time finding another 650 bug. I could have been done with ScheduleCare Phase II by now if it were not for all these issues that I have to find creative ways to code around.

    Jeff
  18. #18  
    same here cglaguna...
    Palm III > HS Visor > Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 750 > Treo Pro > PrePlus GSM

    "95% of all software issues are due to USER ERROR."
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffgibson
    Now it is not just a soft reset issue. This time problem happens *every* time you power on you phone's radio.
    Jeff, I have both the roaming patch and Shadowmite's voice quality patch installed and I DON'T have this problem MOST of the time. I have noticed it a couple of times but can't isolate what the variables are.
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    #20  
    Thanks for the info Jeff!
    "When Palm announced today that its new smartphone would run an operating system from Microsoft, it was the equivalent of Coca-Cola agreeing to fill its bottles with Pepsi." ~David M. Ewalt, Forbes Magazine
    ----------------------------------------------------
    My Phone history.....
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