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  1. #81  
    I just had a nasty thought.

    Perhaps the way they force the network to update the time is to change it to an obviously wrong value and then do a standard "dude, what time is it?" call.

    Jeff, what's the offset in the various common formats? Is it a constant value?

    Tom
  2.    #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xathros
    Jeff-

    I did several tests. I installed the latest test app and activated it. Then went and enabled NetTime and checked your app.

    It said: initial 1/1/04, First 2/10/05 no second.

    Turned off/on radio and checked again: Initial 2/10/05, First 1/5/80, Second 2/10/05

    So it seems that it's nettime that is doing the double check - not necessarily the phone on/off cycle. This means that it could happen whenever the time drifts enough to be updated by nettime (Assuming they even check for accuracy first) and not just at radio on/off

    -X
    I missed this post! Good catch!!!! This makes the problem more serious.

    REEDIT: You must ignore the initial value here because it means nothing in this case. I populate this value *only* when I get the alert that the radio is powering up.

    Jeff
  3.    #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by VetPsychWars
    I just had a nasty thought.

    Perhaps the way they force the network to update the time is to change it to an obviously wrong value and then do a standard "dude, what time is it?" call.

    Jeff, what's the offset in the various common formats? Is it a constant value?

    Tom
    Don't know what you are asking? But if you look at the behavior of the Sprint's Treo 600 you will see only 1 time change. Personally I think someone just blew it when they coded this routine. But again I contend that they should only be doing an update if the time on the palm is different that the network time.

    For those that are interested here is a code segment of how I am detecting and grabbing the values:

    (sorry but the editor won't let me format the indentation)

    case phnLibLaunchCmdEvent:

    phoneEvent = (PhnEventPtr) cmdPBP;



    switch (phoneEvent->eventType) {

    case phnEvtPower: // Phone event that signals power change

    if (!HsGetPhoneLibrary (&PhoneLibRefNum)) {

    if (PhnLibModulePowered (PhoneLibRefNum) == phnPowerOn) { // Is the phone going to a power on state

    ReadAppPreferences(&AppPrefs);

    AppPrefs.RadioOn =
    true; // Save a flag to show we got here

    AppPrefs.StartTime = TimGetSeconds(); // Save the Initial time

    AppPrefs.ChangeCount = 0; // Init the Number of Changes

    WriteAppPreferences(&AppPrefs);

    }

    }

    break;

    }

    break;

    case sysAppLaunchCmdNotify:
    notifyParam = (SysNotifyParamType *) cmdPBP;

    switch(notifyParam->notifyType) {

    case sysNotifyTimeChangeEvent: // Event notification for time change

    now = TimGetSeconds(); // What time did we change clock to?

    ReadAppPreferences(&AppPrefs);

    switch (AppPrefs.ChangeCount) { // How many changes???

    case 0: // First change

    AppPrefs.Change1 = now; // Save the time

    break;

    case 1: // Second Change

    AppPrefs.Change2 = now; // Save the time

    break;

    }

    AppPrefs.ChangeCount++;
    // Increment the count

    WriteAppPreferences(&AppPrefs);

    break;

    }

    break;

  4. #84  
    don't think anyone's mentioned this, probably because it's an irrelevant detail, but the 'menu' > 'options' listing says


    About DisplayHotSyncID

    rather than

    About DisplayTimeChange

    ...
    Paul Theodoropoulos
    <a href=http://www.anastrophe.com>www.anastrophe.com</a>
  5. #85  
    Adding my data point....

    Do you have Sprint Service? YES
    Do you have "Enable Local Network Time" option enabled in date&time preferences? YES
    Do you have the Shadowmite ROM loaded for voice quality? NO
    Do you have the newest Sprint Roaming Patch loaded? YES

    # of Changes: 2
    Initial time: 2/10/05 17:45
    First Change: 1/5/80 15:59
    Second Change: 2/10/05 17:46

    That is some doozy of a bug you found, Jeff!

    tanster
    Treo 650 on Sprint, as of 11/18/04!
    To transfer data from your current Palm device to the Treo 650, click here.
    To see my Treo 650 pics, click here.
  6.    #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by anastrophe
    don't think anyone's mentioned this, probably because it's an irrelevant detail, but the 'menu' > 'options' listing says


    About DisplayHotSyncID

    rather than

    About DisplayTimeChange

    ...
    Didn't I change that in v1.1 along with the date display problem?

    As I said earlier, this was a total hack just to prove the problem exists and to let everyone have a tool to see if the problem existed on their 650. Was never ment to be a production application. But it is kind of cool isn't it???

    Jeff
  7.    #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by tanster
    Adding my data point....

    Do you have Sprint Service? YES
    Do you have "Enable Local Network Time" option enabled in date&time preferences? YES
    Do you have the Shadowmite ROM loaded for voice quality? NO
    Do you have the newest Sprint Roaming Patch loaded? YES

    # of Changes: 2
    Initial time: 2/10/05 17:45
    First Change: 1/5/80 15:59
    Second Change: 2/10/05 17:46

    That is some doozy of a bug you found, Jeff!

    I hope it is the LAST one I find.

    Jeff
  8. #88  
    does this explain why I have 2 or 3 random resets a day even when I'm not even touching the pohne?! this is absolutely ridiculous! I can't believe all these "bugs" that have still not been worked out since The Treo 300!! These people are morons...
  9. #89  
    I used to get random resets without touching the phone. I still have network time enabled, but since I got rid of Verichat (about four weeks ago now) I have not had one reset.

    Quote Originally Posted by treoneo
    does this explain why I have 2 or 3 random resets a day even when I'm not even touching the pohne?! this is absolutely ridiculous! I can't believe all these "bugs" that have still not been worked out since The Treo 300!! These people are morons...
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  10. #90  
    resets = butler for me - even after uninstalling butler my phone is not the same.
  11. #91  
    Well so far after this addressing this issue, as well as the Database scan, I must say that my unit is actually quite stable. This also may have something to do with the 4th replaced treo. It doesn't exhibit the physical issues either. Anyway, thanks Jeff for figuring this out. (Funny I have a friend with your exact name)!
  12. #92  
    Jeff,

    I've noticed that everyone is reporting 1/5/80, and I assume that the different hours are a function of the time zone (EST -> 18:59, PST -> 15:59, etc.) That means that the time corresponds to 23:59 UTC/GMT. You don't display the seconds field, but any chance it's 23:59:59? That would put it at one second before 1/6/80 00:00 UTC. By coincidence , that is the base time, or "epoch", of the GPS time system, which is also used for CDMA.

    So, while this time looks completely arbitrary from the PalmOS side, it is the equivalent of "-1 seconds since the beginning of time" to the CDMA baseband chip -- in other words, a deliberately illegal value. I would guess that this time value might be generated by the CDMA chip when it is being asked for the time before it has acquired it from the network. Maybe there's some kind of race condition? In any case, the Palm side should recognize it as bogus and throw it away, but instead it propogates it through the system (sigh).

    P.S. You changed the app window title and the about box in v1.1, but NOT the menu item. No big deal.
  13. #93  
    Props to Jeff for this bug fix.

    I've only had my T650 for a bit over a week, first few days we're great, except for the 2 to 3 daily soft resets..all on it's own, never even touched the unit (I got used to it - how sad is that!).

    Day 6 the unit goes into a loop, because I've set a permanent daily alarm across all dates within my calendar. I have to 'go to' the calendar to get the alarm loop to stop....or reset (yes, deleting the alarm request stops the loop from ever happening).

    This alarm loop happens every time the phone is powered down and turned back on, OR because I live on the cusp of Digital Cell and Digital Roaming when the signal shifts between the two....depending on where I am in my house, I could be roaming or standard digital connect...but going from one to the other starts this alarm loop...even though the alarm set time has long since passed.

    This got me thinking that there is something in the unit telling it the wrong date/time...but when I'd check the date/time, it was correct by the time I could get to the screen to check it out...LO AND BEHOLD...I find this thread!!!

    I disable the Network Time...TWO DAYS NOW...NOT ONE SOFT RESET!!!...NONE, NADA, GONE! POOF!

    THANK YOU FOR FINDING THIS!...

    The soft resets weren't really bothering me all that much, no hard resets, kinda like Sprint provisioning from time to time....

    BUT ALL GONE NOW!! (Well at least for two days!)

    THANKS AGAIN!
  14.    #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by ldoron
    Jeff,

    I've noticed that everyone is reporting 1/5/80, and I assume that the different hours are a function of the time zone (EST -> 18:59, PST -> 15:59, etc.) That means that the time corresponds to 23:59 UTC/GMT. You don't display the seconds field, but any chance it's 23:59:59? That would put it at one second before 1/6/80 00:00 UTC. By coincidence , that is the base time, or "epoch", of the GPS time system, which is also used for CDMA.

    So, while this time looks completely arbitrary from the PalmOS side, it is the equivalent of "-1 seconds since the beginning of time" to the CDMA baseband chip -- in other words, a deliberately illegal value. I would guess that this time value might be generated by the CDMA chip when it is being asked for the time before it has acquired it from the network. Maybe there's some kind of race condition? In any case, the Palm side should recognize it as bogus and throw it away, but instead it propogates it through the system (sigh).

    P.S. You changed the app window title and the about box in v1.1, but NOT the menu item. No big deal.
    Very interesting! I can tell you that that Palm conciders the begining of time to be: 12:00 A.M. on January 1, 1904. Your detail is right on target. So what I initially thought was a random value is proving out to be very logical but also very wrong. I still can not believe that they did not incorporate logic to only change the time if it needed to be changed. This is a *smart* phone right???? Well the 650 is turning out to have ADD.

    Jeff
  15.    #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffhas
    Props to Jeff for this bug fix.

    I've only had my T650 for a bit over a week, first few days we're great, except for the 2 to 3 daily soft resets..all on it's own, never even touched the unit (I got used to it - how sad is that!).

    Day 6 the unit goes into a loop, because I've set a permanent daily alarm across all dates within my calendar. I have to 'go to' the calendar to get the alarm loop to stop....or reset (yes, deleting the alarm request stops the loop from ever happening).

    This alarm loop happens every time the phone is powered down and turned back on, OR because I live on the cusp of Digital Cell and Digital Roaming when the signal shifts between the two....depending on where I am in my house, I could be roaming or standard digital connect...but going from one to the other starts this alarm loop...even though the alarm set time has long since passed.

    This got me thinking that there is something in the unit telling it the wrong date/time...but when I'd check the date/time, it was correct by the time I could get to the screen to check it out...LO AND BEHOLD...I find this thread!!!

    I disable the Network Time...TWO DAYS NOW...NOT ONE SOFT RESET!!!...NONE, NADA, GONE! POOF!

    THANK YOU FOR FINDING THIS!...

    The soft resets weren't really bothering me all that much, no hard resets, kinda like Sprint provisioning from time to time....

    BUT ALL GONE NOW!! (Well at least for two days!)

    THANKS AGAIN!
    Thanks for sharing your experience! It is stories like your s, Zorro869 and others, that makes the time and effort it took to identify and document this problem worth every second of my time. I am just sorry that I have to keep reporting more issues with the 650. I really like this device but these problems are consuming too much of my new product developement time!!

    Jeff
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffgibson
    Well the 650 is turning out to have ADD.
    ROFL!

    tanster
    Treo 650 on Sprint, as of 11/18/04!
    To transfer data from your current Palm device to the Treo 650, click here.
    To see my Treo 650 pics, click here.
  17. nickl's Avatar
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    #97  
    Hi everyone. New user here - definitely not a "techie." I just want to use the Treo as advertised. Do the above postings mean I should turn off the network time function? I too have noticed the Treo turning on (I guess this may be a soft reset) while it's sitting on my desk.
  18. Minsc's Avatar
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    #98  
    By coincidence , that is the base time, or "epoch", of the GPS time system, which is also used for CDMA.
    Coincidentally, don't all cell towers use GPS for time-keeping purposes? -to ensure that all sites on the network stay in sync...?
  19.    #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by nickl
    Hi everyone. New user here - definitely not a "techie." I just want to use the Treo as advertised. Do the above postings mean I should turn off the network time function? I too have noticed the Treo turning on (I guess this may be a soft reset) while it's sitting on my desk.
    I personally think it would be a good idea. I can point to *at least* 1/2 dozen problems that were directly caused by this option being enabled. It is absolutley true that many people have not (or don't know they have) been affected by the bug in this option. I can tell you this option will not be re-enabled on my 650 until this problem has been fixed. I *love* this option. It kills me to disable it but I would rather have the small task of manually setting new time/timezones as I travel. It is far easier than the many hard resets and backup restores that I have done because of this problem.

    Jeff
  20. liv2surf's Avatar
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    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffgibson
    Now it is not just a soft reset issue. This time problem happens *every* time you power on you phone's radio. Who knows how many different problems are happening that don't cause resets. Although I have seen reset loops that did not make sense. Last night I got one again and whne I got it under control, my system date was in the 1980's.

    Also I have lost my hotsync id w/o reason many times and other unexplained things happen that make a little more sense to me now. I do not however believe this is the end all explanation but this does explain many of the things I have seen on my 650. And also some of those discussed in this forum.

    This situation also seemed to have gotten worse after the roaming update. Is ther anyone out there that has a Sprint 650 that has *not* installed the roaming update or the shadowmite ROM? As I said above, I will throw together a quick program that will tell if you have this problem on your 650.

    Jeff
    I have installed neither ROM upgrade on my Sprint Treo 650.
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