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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by acousticbiker
    Jeff, I have both the roaming patch and Shadowmite's voice quality patch installed and I DON'T have this problem MOST of the time. I have noticed it a couple of times but can't isolate what the variables are.
    Well the condition that can cause problems is there *every* time you power your phone on if you have this option enabled. It is true that it will not cause a visible problem (or any problem at all) every time you cycle the phone power. But the condition is there for unexpected things to happen. That's all I am saying.

    Jeff
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffgibson
    Well the condition that can cause problems is there *every* time you power your phone on if you have this option enabled. It is true that it will not cause a visible problem (or any problem at all) every time you cycle the phone power. But the condition is there for unexpected things to happen. That's all I am saying.

    Jeff
    I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that every time I power the phone on, the time and date are incorrect? Is this what you mean by the "condition" that can cause problems? Is the condition always there whether the clock shows the right time/date or not?

    I do have the network time setting selected and as I mentioned before, I have only noticed the time and date being off (sometime in the 1980s, as you described) a couple of times. I do frequently power the phone on and off manually.
  3. #23  
    the fact that it does this sometimes is scarier to me than doing it all the time. How are you supposed to control the thing and it exhibts errant behavior. Clearly this has far reaching effects.
    When the dark clouds gather on the horizon, when thunder and lightning fills the sky, When fate is but a glint in the eye of a fallen Rattler, And hopes are lost friends, When the sinew of the chest grows weary from those hard-charging linebackers, And the muscles in the legs grow tired from those hard-charging running backs ... You must remember that the Rattlers will... Strike, Strike, and Strike again.
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by acousticbiker
    I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that every time I power the phone on, the time and date are incorrect? Is this what you mean by the "condition" that can cause problems? Is the condition always there whether the clock shows the right time/date or not?

    I do have the network time setting selected and as I mentioned before, I have only noticed the time and date being off (sometime in the 1980s, as you described) a couple of times. I do frequently power the phone on and off manually.
    Well you sort of have it right.

    This is what happens every time the phone is powered on and that option is enabled:

    - the time is set to a random value (usually in the 1980's).
    - then the time is again set to the correct time.

    Now there is a window of time in there where applications can get hold of the bogus time. This is where the problem is at its worst. It is also possible that alarms that are logged in the system can be lost during this time window never to be seen again unless your application detects the change and regenerates the alarm. By an alarm I mean a request made by a program to the operating system to wake up that application again at a specific time. This is how for example your calendar alarms get triggered.

    Now what *should* happen is the operating system should compare the time and timezone it finds on the 650 with the network time. If they are different, and ONLY if they are different, the palm time should be adjusted. But that is not what is happening on the 650. Instead they are doing this very stupid double time change that is just insane.

    Jeff
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffgibson
    All,

    I just discovered a serious problem with the 650 phone power up sequence. I know this is a Sprint issue but not sure if it applies to GSM phones. But here it is:

    If you enable the "Enable Local Network Time" option then this is what happens when the phone powers up:

    1) 650 sets the 650's time to a random time (mostly in the 1980's from what I can tell)
    2) 650 then resets the time to the correct local time.

    This happens *every* time you power up your phone. Well it sounds harmless enough until you start to think about what this does to the operating system and running applications:
    1. setting the time backwards causes all pending alarms (system and application) to be killed. So programs that are trying to be nice about re-enabing themselves by setting alarms to wait for a period of time before they enable themselves after a reset will most likely not enable themselves because their alarms were dropped!
    2. any running program that reads the time will get a bogus date and potentially make bad decisions on what to do. Then when the time goes back to normal, that can confuse applications even more.
    3. I believe this can also be the reason for some battery drain issues people are reporting. I can see how a program or a part of the operating system could grab this bogus date and go into a loop and spin for a long time consuming battery as it goes.
    4. Every time you manually powerup your phone you potentiall kill all pending alarms.
    5. I can see that it is also possible to corrupt data and files if a program happens to grab the bogus date and uses it as a part of its operations.
    6. I have seen my phone 3 times in the last day crash during the powerup and my clock was left on a date back in 1982!
    I don't mean to alarm everyone but I think this is a searious problem that people need to know about. IMO this option needs to be disabled until a fix is distributed. As I reacll the 600 also had a problem early on this "Enable Local Network Time" but if I recall correctly it was a problem with not getting the right timezone set.

    Jeff
    Wow, I think this is exactly what's been happening to me. Last night did me in for good on the Treo 650. As I was talking on the phone one of my alarms from from earlier in the day went off( I had snoozed it a few hours) My phone locked up. I went to do a soft reset and it put it into a continuous loop reset. I thought well I am ok because I have TealBack and have used it before to restore from a hard reset with no problems. After I finished restoring from the card I went to my calender and nothing was there. I went to my address book and nothing was there(DTBK5). So now I was getting pissed. Then I went to synch with my PC and I get an error message of"the device database is not compatible with the conduit" not only that but it overwrote my database on the PC - The default settings are for synchronizing everything. I have owned my Sprint 650 since Late November and I can not count the times I have had a soft or hard reset. I don't know what all has happend but this machine is just not stable enough for me so I am selling my Treo 650 with all of my accessories very soon on ebay. If anyone is interested here are the accessories I have purchased:

    Sprint Treo 650
    Two Leather Nutshell cases(Black, Tan)
    A modified proclip holster for the 600(works great)
    Unopened Jabra 250 bluetooth headset
    Unopened Linksys Bluetooth USB adapter
    Extra battery
    Car charger
    Extra retractible hotsynch/charge cable

    If anyone is intereseted just send me an email johnnunnally@charter.net


    Anyone have anysuggestions on a standalone PDA that is somewhere close to the size of the older Handspring TREO 90?
  6.    #26  
    Here is a quick little application that will show you how many times the system time is reset during a phone radio power up and the values for the time assignments. It is a very eye opening thing to see.

    Enjoy.....

    Jeff

    REEDIT: Oh to use it just run the program and enable it with the check box in the upper right corner of the screen. Then power down and power up your radio. Wait for a few seconds and then open this program again. You will see the number of times the system time was set and what values it was set to.

    Do this with and without the "Enable Local Network Time" option.


    RE-REEDIT: I just ran this on my Sprint Treo 600 and it only sets the time once and that setting is to the correct time. No bogus time change.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by jeffgibson; 02/09/2005 at 10:22 AM.
  7. ceb
    ceb is offline
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    #27  
    Mine always resets to the year 1904..........


    Must be a feature - the 650 can be used for time travel....
    Cheers

    Charles
  8. #28  
    No time changes on Cingular Blue as expected as they don't push network time
    Palm III > HS Visor > Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 750 > Treo Pro > PrePlus GSM

    "95% of all software issues are due to USER ERROR."
  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by ceb
    Mine always resets to the year 1904..........


    Must be a feature - the 650 can be used for time travel....
    I'll work on packaging that application for you.
  10. #30  
    My favorite time travel quotes:

    Uncle Rico: Ohhhh, man I wish I could go back in time. I'd take state.
    (later)
    Uncle Rico: Kip, I reckon... you know a lot about... cyberspace? You ever come across anything... like time travel?
    Kip: Easy, I've already looked into it for myself.
    Uncle Rico: Right on... right on.
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
  11. #31  
    I downloaded Jeff's program, enabled it, and turned the phone off and on. No date resets. Turned the phone off, turned the device off, and did a soft reset. Turned the phone on, checked Jeff's program. No date resets.

    Don't know what to tell you; I definitely have network time enabled. Sprint Treo 650.

    Tom
  12. JAnderson's Avatar
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffgibson
    All,

    I just discovered a serious problem with the 650 phone power up sequence. I know this is a Sprint issue but not sure if it applies to GSM phones. But here it is:

    If you enable the "Enable Local Network Time" option then this is what happens when the phone powers up:

    1) 650 sets the 650's time to a random time (mostly in the 1980's from what I can tell)
    2) 650 then resets the time to the correct local time.

    This happens *every* time you power up your phone. Well it sounds harmless enough until you start to think about what this does to the operating system and running applications:
    1. setting the time backwards causes all pending alarms (system and application) to be killed. So programs that are trying to be nice about re-enabing themselves by setting alarms to wait for a period of time before they enable themselves after a reset will most likely not enable themselves because their alarms were dropped!
    2. any running program that reads the time will get a bogus date and potentially make bad decisions on what to do. Then when the time goes back to normal, that can confuse applications even more.
    3. I believe this can also be the reason for some battery drain issues people are reporting. I can see how a program or a part of the operating system could grab this bogus date and go into a loop and spin for a long time consuming battery as it goes.
    4. Every time you manually powerup your phone you potentiall kill all pending alarms.
    5. I can see that it is also possible to corrupt data and files if a program happens to grab the bogus date and uses it as a part of its operations.
    6. I have seen my phone 3 times in the last day crash during the powerup and my clock was left on a date back in 1982!
    I don't mean to alarm everyone but I think this is a searious problem that people need to know about. IMO this option needs to be disabled until a fix is distributed. As I reacll the 600 also had a problem early on this "Enable Local Network Time" but if I recall correctly it was a problem with not getting the right timezone set.

    Jeff

    Jeff great catch, have not seen this asked yet. Did you report this problem so they can work on a patch yet?

    Thanks again!
  13. #33  
    OK, I am experiencing resets after HS, so I have disabled the network time thing....May not fix it, but I am doing everything I can to insure stability on my machine.

    BUT, I am a bit shall we say, OC and I must have a correct clock.

    Workaround for disabling network time is to use this proggie...

    http://www.shin.nu/~FocV/NetClock/

    Works fine, less filling, tastes great! Work arounds are fun!
  14.    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by VetPsychWars
    I downloaded Jeff's program, enabled it, and turned the phone off and on. No date resets. Turned the phone off, turned the device off, and did a soft reset. Turned the phone on, checked Jeff's program. No date resets.

    Don't know what to tell you; I definitely have network time enabled. Sprint Treo 650.

    Tom
    Have you loaded either of these???

    Shadowmites ROM?
    Palm Roaming Fix?

    Jeff
  15. #35  
    You all may find this useful: TimeSync XT
  16.    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by JAnderson
    Jeff great catch, have not seen this asked yet. Did you report this problem so they can work on a patch yet?

    Thanks again!
    You are welcome and I hate to be the distributor of bad news.

    I have not reported this behavior. To tell you the truth, I don't know who I would report it to. P1 says the Sprint is not their product and Sprint is clueless!

    Jeff
  17. #37  
    Interesting...I installed this app and when I power off the phone's radio and then power it back on it shows 2 changes, the first one being a date in 1988 and the second one being the correct day time.

    When I do a soft reset and the phone's radio get's powered back it it shows NO changes. Since that soft rest I powered the phones radio on/off 3 times and still no values. Not sure why it registered the first time in powered the radio on/ff but after the soft reset it logs no changes.
  18. #38  
    I just did another soft rest and still no changes with network time enabled and the application enabled.
  19. Minsc's Avatar
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    #39  
    Has anyone confirmed this behavior on a bone-stock 650? No patches, no rom hacks, no 3rd party software. Just a virgin 650 and the date-switch checker app.
    Just curious.
  20. #40  
    Jeff, et alia:

    I do not have a custom ROM, and I do have the Sprint roaming patch. I can also say that I was reprovisioned this morning by Sprint. Don't know what they downloaded to me. but they did.

    Ever since I stopped using Versamail, everything has been solid, though the occasional site that delivers a virus load or malevolent javascript can cause problems.

    I'll do reasonable tests, but so far the program has reported zero time resets.

    Jeff, if the time is garbage, I would more likely think of an uninitialized variable or memory that was allocated but not cleared prior to a write?

    Tom
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