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  1.    #1  
    On the top line, in the middle of the phone screen right after the Carrier name display there is a little circle with a horizontal and vertial line going through it. While it's not documented in my manual I assume it's the GPS 911 display. Mine has a diagnol RED line going across it which seems to mean that it is NOT enabled.

    Can anyone confirm that's what that is ... and does yours have the diagnal red line going through it?

    My Nokia always showed it as available. I'm in NJ and this is the ATT Version of the 650.
  2. #2  
    If you have a red line through the crosshairs, it's disabled.

    Try this: hit the menu button, under Options, select "Phone Preferences." Now, see if there's an option marked "Enable Location Privacy." If it's there, make sure it is NOT checked, and that should enable location based positioning.

    A couple things:

    1. I have the Sprint version, so your menus may or may not be different.

    2. In theory, as long as you're in an Automatic Location Identification (ALI Phase II) service area, then it doesn't matter if you have location privacy turned on. Calling 911 will override location privacy in all instances. Location privacy only hides your location from non-emergency services. But, turning privacy off is a good way to see if the network has ALI enabled... if the red line stays on your crosshairs after turning privacy off, then the network you are on is NOT capable of ALI Phase II (which is what E911 uses).

    3. Most important point. AT&T's GSM network (now the "Cingular Blue" network) DOES NOT use GPS hardware packed into the phones for ALI, like Sprint and other carriers do! Instead, AT&T chose to use a method called time difference of arrival (TDOA). Basically, this means that the cell towers on the Blue network, which know their location, measure the time it takes for your cell phone's signal to reach three or more cell towers, and triangulate your position based on that delay. Cingular was originally using a slightly different technology called Enhanced Observed Time Difference (EOTD), which requires that your phone reach four cell towers at once, but last I heard they missed some deadlines in getting this to work, and were fined by the FCC, and are switching over to TDOA. See http://news.com.com/2100-1033-915334.html for details.

    What does this mean for GSM Treo 650s? This means that GPS gear IS PROBABLY NOT built into the phone chipsets for GSM 650s, unliked the CDMA versions of this phone. This also means that any software written for the 650 to try and enable a user-friendly location mapping system will have to contend with the differing technologies involved... or just require that you use the GPS SD card from PalmOne.

    TDOA and EOTD however, was something that the GSM carriers (including T-Mobile) went with because it was something that would allow even the oldest GSM phones to take advantage of E-911, whereas CDMA users (like on Sprint and Verizon) are forced to buy new equipment if they want E911.

    This delay from Cingular to bring E911 up in time might also mean that the area you're in isn't equipped for E911 yet.

    4. Last but certainly not least: just because the network is enabled for e911 does NOT mean that your local 911 center is equipped to make use of that capability. Upgrades have to happen in the 911 dispatch centers too, and the press is rife with stories of how that "E911 fee" that people get charged on their phone bills does make it to the city governments that have to upgrade their equipemnt, but they end up spending it on other unrelated things and never actually upgrade.
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterEd
    On the top line, in the middle of the phone screen right after the Carrier name display there is a little circle with a horizontal and vertial line going through it. While it's not documented in my manual I assume it's the GPS 911 display. Mine has a diagnol RED line going across it which seems to mean that it is NOT enabled.

    Can anyone confirm that's what that is ... and does yours have the diagnal red line going through it?

    My Nokia always showed it as available. I'm in NJ and this is the ATT Version of the 650.
    MisterEd - I don't have that on my Blue phone. Maybe our hardware is slightly idfferent though? In any case, no GSM phone I know of uses GPS in the phone for E911 locating. GPS is required in a CDMA phone for timeing purposes (that's my understanding anyway - my CDMA knowledge is extreamly limited though).

    What does your Nokia show as available? E911 locating is done at the cell site and network side, not on the handset. E911 phase 1 does not even try to locate you - it just gives the PSAp the location of the cell site serving your call. E911 phase 2 uses triangulation.
    Treo 650 GSM
  4. #4  
    scaredpoet, very interesting and detailed info...thanks!
  5.    #5  
    My 6620 had a little symbol plus it was a config option.
    This is a blue phone.
    Maybe the symbol means "No target practice allowed."

    http://img123.exs.cx/img123/9931/dsc12706vy.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by helpermonkey
    MisterEd - I don't have that on my Blue phone. Maybe our hardware is slightly idfferent though? In any case, no GSM phone I know of uses GPS in the phone for E911 locating. GPS is required in a CDMA phone for timeing purposes (that's my understanding anyway - my CDMA knowledge is extreamly limited though).

    What does your Nokia show as available? E911 locating is done at the cell site and network side, not on the handset. E911 phase 1 does not even try to locate you - it just gives the PSAp the location of the cell site serving your call. E911 phase 2 uses triangulation.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by scaredpoet
    If you have a red line through the crosshairs, it's disabled.

    Try this: hit the menu button, under Options, select "Phone Preferences." Now, see if there's an option marked "Enable Location Privacy." If it's there, make sure it is NOT checked, and that should enable location based positioning.
    I have never seen this on a phone before TDMA or GSM... sure it sin't a CDMA thing? Your GSM phone does not have coordinates associated with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by scaredpoet
    2. In theory, as long as you're in an Automatic Location Identification (ALI Phase II) service area, then it doesn't matter if you have location privacy turned on. Calling 911 will override location privacy in all instances. Location privacy only hides your location from non-emergency services. But, turning privacy off is a good way to see if the network has ALI enabled... if the red line stays on your crosshairs after turning privacy off, then the network you are on is NOT capable of ALI Phase II (which is what E911 uses).
    There is no way for a GSM phone to know what E911 phase a county is at (0,1 and 2 are the only phases I think are currently used) sice the locating is done at the system side, there is no need for the phone to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by scaredpoet
    3. Most important point. AT&T's GSM network (now the "Cingular Blue" network) DOES NOT use GPS hardware packed into the phones for ALI, like Sprint and other carriers do! Instead, AT&T chose to use a method called time difference of arrival (TDOA). Basically, this means that the cell towers on the Blue network, which know their location, measure the time it takes for your cell phone's signal to reach three or more cell towers, and triangulate your position based on that delay. Cingular was originally using a slightly different technology called Enhanced Observed Time Difference (EOTD), which requires that your phone reach four cell towers at once, but last I heard they missed some deadlines in getting this to work, and were fined by the FCC, and are switching over to TDOA. See http://news.com.com/2100-1033-915334.html for details.

    What does this mean for GSM Treo 650s? This means that GPS gear IS PROBABLY NOT built into the phone chipsets for GSM 650s, unliked the CDMA versions of this phone. This also means that any software written for the 650 to try and enable a user-friendly location mapping system will have to contend with the differing technologies involved... or just require that you use the GPS SD card from PalmOne.

    TDOA and EOTD however, was something that the GSM carriers (including T-Mobile) went with because it was something that would allow even the oldest GSM phones to take advantage of E-911, whereas CDMA users (like on Sprint and Verizon) are forced to buy new equipment if they want E911.

    This delay from Cingular to bring E911 up in time might also mean that the area you're in isn't equipped for E911 yet.
    As for E911 delays - it is my understanding when a county announces to a cellular carrier that they are changing E911 phase, either going active with phase 1 or changing from phase 1 to phase 2, the carrier has a certain amount of time to be in compliance. They do not upgrade early (at least with they all don't maybe some carriers like to waste money and drop gear they don't need to at their sites). So E911 is dependent on the county requesting it.


    Quote Originally Posted by scaredpoet
    4. Last but certainly not least: just because the network is enabled for e911 does NOT mean that your local 911 center is equipped to make use of that capability. Upgrades have to happen in the 911 dispatch centers too, and the press is rife with stories of how that "E911 fee" that people get charged on their phone bills does make it to the city governments that have to upgrade their equipemnt, but they end up spending it on other unrelated things and never actually upgrade.

    See above...

    Hope this was of some help.
    Treo 650 GSM
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterEd
    My 6620 had a little symbol plus it was a config option.
    This is a blue phone.
    Maybe the symbol means "No target practice allowed."

    http://img123.exs.cx/img123/9931/dsc12706vy.jpg
    What did the symbol on the 6620 show exactly? And what was the config option? Sorry But I want to make sure i am clear on what you are saying is all.

    Hmm, well I guess my phone does look a little different than yours besides that symbol. I certainly don't have the symbol that you do.
    Treo 650 GSM
  8.    #8  
    Interesting message. I don't have that option (blue GSM 650) but my Nokia had one similar to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by scaredpoet
    If you have a red line through the crosshairs, it's disabled.

    Try this: hit the menu button, under Options, select "Phone Preferences." Now, see if there's an option marked "Enable Location Privacy." If it's there, make sure it is NOT checked, and that should enable location based positioning.
  9.    #9  
    I don't have the Nokia any longer so I dont recall. I also believe my Audiovox SMT5600 had a similar option but I don't have the either and so I can't be sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by helpermonkey
    What did the symbol on the 6620 show exactly? And what was the config option? Sorry But I want to make sure i am clear on what you are saying is all.

    Hmm, well I guess my phone does look a little different than yours besides that symbol. I certainly don't have the symbol that you do.
  10. #10  
    Well a GSM phone doesn't need GPS, so unless they add it for some other reason... it is not for E911.
    Treo 650 GSM
  11.    #11  
    Well .. that symbol must have some meaning (unless it's left over from the CDMA models).
    Quote Originally Posted by helpermonkey
    Well a GSM phone doesn't need GPS, so unless they add it for some other reason... it is not for E911.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by helpermonkey
    GPS is required in a CDMA phone for timeing purposes (that's my understanding anyway - my CDMA knowledge is extreamly limited though).
    CDMA only requires a stable time source. Usually that's GPS, but it doesn't have to be.

    For E-911 however, Sprint and Verizion did choose to use GPS-assisted hardware in each handset, though they could have opted for a similar system as GSM if they wanted to.
  13. #13  
    The crosshairs with the red line through it does not disable e911. It disables use of other location services that the carrier offers, although no Treo 650 carriers are yet offering any such services. So it doesn't really matter yet.
  14. #14  
    bit off topic, but interesting anyway.
    On most (if not all) GSM phones you can dail for 911/000/112 (whatever the number is in your country) even if you have no SIM card or no credit left on your sim by dailing 112.
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  15. #15  
    Any phone should work to call 911 was my impression. Meaning an unactive phone will work on any network it can find that is compatible with it if you dial 911.
    Treo 650 GSM
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by helpermonkey
    Any phone should work to call 911 was my impression. Meaning an unactive phone will work on any network it can find that is compatible with it if you dial 911.
    It should, but you may need to go trough some menu's to get to it.
    The 112 trick works world wide so you don't have to think about what the local '911' number is if you are abroad..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  17. #17  
    So 112 will dial emergency anywhere in the world?
    Treo 650 GSM
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by helpermonkey
    So 112 will dial emergency anywhere in the world?
    That is what I was told when I did my first aid training...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by bkrodgers
    The crosshairs with the red line through it does not disable e911. It disables use of other location services that the carrier offers, although no Treo 650 carriers are yet offering any such services. So it doesn't really matter yet.
    Actually, SprintPCS offers a location based service, but not through any data application (PCS Vision Service). If, however, you call up 411 and have your location feature turned on, Sprint directory assistance can pinpoint your location and give you OnStar-style driving directions to where you need to go. Of course at $1.25 per call, 411 isn't cheap, but neither is OnStar.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterEd
    On the top line, in the middle of the phone screen right after the Carrier name display there is a little circle with a horizontal and vertial line going through it. While it's not documented in my manual I assume it's the GPS 911 display. Mine has a diagnol RED line going across it which seems to mean that it is NOT enabled.

    Can anyone confirm that's what that is ... and does yours have the diagnal red line going through it?

    My Nokia always showed it as available. I'm in NJ and this is the ATT Version of the 650.
    Did you add the Shadowmight overlay file. I had that symbol on mine when I used one of Shadowmight's files that 'unlocked hidden options' It is a feature of the CDMA...
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