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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrDoom
    Man, Monkey! Do you have a stake in how well GSM performs? You just seem to have gotten awfully agitated. In many ways you are right. It is a matter of personal preference, and what works best for what you need. So personally, you can take your GSM and shove it! I think it's the SHI##IEST technology on the planet. Having said that, everything has pros and cons. I'd love to have the option to "swap" my sim into a smaller phone sometimes, but that's about it. I realize once the GSM/CDMA war is upon us (I was actually enjoying it's abscence until I realized the GSM unit hadn't come out yet. For a few weeks I thought we'd all done a lot of growing up since the 600.) there is no stopping it, but there's no winning it either. Some people are die hard one way (appears you are for GSM) and some people are die hard another (I KNOW I am for CDMA, Sprint specifically.) and some people don't know the difference and wouldn't care if they did.
    Hey Doom,

    Yes I do have a stake in how well GSM performs. That being said, I never claimed it was better than CDMA I don't think. I can defend GSM, but I can't pan CDMA as a technology. People like to get all toutchy - feely about their cellular technologies. I am just trying to keep the info straight from my perspective (biased indeed). The other thing is I just don't like people reading poor quality info (not pointing to anyone or any post here) and then trying to make some sort of decision based off that. In the end, you are right, which one is "better" is not even important, it is what works best for you. trying to understand the technologies is a good thing though I think.
    Treo 650 GSM
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by helpermonkey
    That page was an interesting read, but it does ignore (or just not talk about) some important things. In any case, what was your take on reading it? I think that some of the missing information could lead one to come to incorrect (or possibly incorrect) conclusions aout the capactiy of a GSM system (not its spectral efficiency - which is really no ones concern but the provider who payed for the specrum).
    In my opinion based on reading that article that CDMA seem to have the upper hand. I believe CDMA will eventually come out on top because of it's higher capacity spectrum.

    More info on CDMA can be found here.
  3. #43  
    I found this article interesting as well regarding Cingular adopting GSM.

    Sorry if it doesn't quite belong in this thread.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by aznmode
    In my opinion based on reading that article that CDMA seem to have the upper hand. I believe CDMA will eventually come out on top because of it's higher capacity spectrum.

    More info on CDMA can be found here.
    Hmm, well I guess you can draw your own conclusions from it, but like I said it isn't very indepth, so there is info missing.

    As to CDMA having higher spectrum capacity, do you know what that means? Or maybe it would be better if I said, what does that mean to you? I am not trying to insult you, I am seriously just wondering why you think that is significant.

    As for CDMA winning out in the end, well what flavor? Everyone is going CDMA in the near future it seems. GSM will go to UMTS and CDMA will go to CDMA2000 (is that right - what ever they call it anyway it is 3G CDMA for them). The majority of the world will be going UMTS, if that means anything to you - not saying it should.
    Treo 650 GSM
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by aznmode
    I found this article interesting as well regarding Cingular adopting GSM.

    Sorry if it doesn't quite belong in this thread.
    man, that article must be two or three years old now...
    Treo 650 GSM
  6. #46  
    Ok first, I'm not about to pan your response based on the title of my response, I just like to say "monkey" as often as possible. Now, as for your reply, I take it back. It doesn't matter what performs best for you. CDMA. CDMA. CDMA. CONFORM TO CDMA. Heh heh. I've been on the road for the past few hours and have had far too much coffee. Still, I knew you were a GSMophile. Dirty, inferior technology of the French. Just kidding. Well, except about the French. I just can't seem to like those people.
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  7. Minsc's Avatar
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    #47  

    Ummm....the question raised in this thread is comparing two almost exactly similar devices.

    How is the fact that one is worth 80% or more of its value down the road due to its universal acceptance not an important point??

    I guess its irrelevant that I got my Treo 600 for FREE because I bought 3 at the $399 price and sold them to a German and a Swiss to make enough for mine and then some bucks on top of that.

    I guess it is pointless that I now have my current Treo 600 on ebay expecting $300 + on it so I can add $200 and get me a major uprade via the Treo 650?

    Since when did being an early adopter of technology equate to flushing money down the toilet??
    You're right, I forgot that the thread was focused on the 650 - not just a CDMA vs GSM thread. So yes, resale is important. But as someone else alluded to, that price diff. can be made up pretty quickly with Sprint's dirt cheap data plan. I pay $10/month for Vision. Judging by all the talk lately, you're lucky to have that unlimited MW plan. Because trust me, paying $45/month for Cingular's "new" data plan is definitely flushing your money down the toilet.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by DrDoom
    Ok first, I'm not about to pan your response based on the title of my response, I just like to say "monkey" as often as possible. Now, as for your reply, I take it back. It doesn't matter what performs best for you. CDMA. CDMA. CDMA. CONFORM TO CDMA. Heh heh. I've been on the road for the past few hours and have had far too much coffee. Still, I knew you were a GSMophile. Dirty, inferior technology of the French. Just kidding. Well, except about the French. I just can't seem to like those people.
    Doom,

    Can I ask if you have a stake (as you put it) in CDMA's success?

    I am not what I would consider a GSMophile, but like I said before I am involved with GSM profesionally. I don't really know CDMA very much, and don't have a whole lot of time to learn about it.

    cheers,
    monkey
    Treo 650 GSM
  9. #49  
    Stop. Sprint unlimited data and unlimited SMS is $15.00/month. in 8 months your $40 resale delta is moot. Not everyone has their company paying for their service, and if they did, why would they care so much about a $40 resale difference anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Treominator
    I "pay" $19.99 for unlimited Media Works package including 1500 SMS and 400 MMS / month (my company pays for it).

    Show me how your data package deal is a vast improvement....
    PIII,PIIIx,V,Vx,M505,M515,TT,T3,650,700p=>>iPhone
    There's more to life than technology....but not a whole lot more
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohmster
    Stop. Sprint unlimited data and unlimited SMS is $15.00/month. in 8 months your $40 resale delta is moot. Not everyone has their company paying for their service, and if they did, why would they care so much about a $40 resale difference anyway?

    I can tell by your tag line about owning Vaja cases (plural), that you don't think twice about blowing too much money on gadgets.

    I do care about my $$ and the G$M dollar goes a long way because a) the Treo is universal and b) EVERYONE wants one EVERYWHERE on this planet c)I can change chips bewteen other GSM phones d) I have multiple carriers to choose from e) the phone is too expensive to begin with and I do not want a paperweight if I switch carriers f) EDGE g) when I travel abroad I can actually use the tremendous power of my expensive phone wherever I am.
    I have detailed files.
  11. #51  
    Really? Who said I bought multiple cases? Ever get a gift(s)? Throwing money? Go reread my posts. The underlying message is I'm on Sprint because for my lifestyle, it is cheaper. Period.

    You don't have to sell me on the advantages of GSM (Look again at my tag, note the comment about GSM). I lived the last 18 months in the UK. It's great. That's not the point, the point is what is right for you may not be right for everyone. Yes, the rest of the planet may be on GSM, but who cares if you are 98% of the time in the US and on a plan that makes day to day domestic usage cheaper? When I go abroad, I will take my SE-T68i.

    ...and all this over a noted $40 dollar difference in sales price on ebay?

    Last post from me on this one....

    Quote Originally Posted by Treominator
    I can tell by your tag line about owning Vaja cases (plural), that you don't think twice about blowing too much money on gadgets.

    I do care about my $$ and the G$M dollar goes a long way because a) the Treo is universal and b) EVERYONE wants one EVERYWHERE on this planet c)I can change chips bewteen other GSM phones d) I have multiple carriers to choose from e) the phone is too expensive to begin with and I do not want a paperweight if I switch carriers f) EDGE g) when I travel abroad I can actually use the tremendous power of my expensive phone wherever I am.
    PIII,PIIIx,V,Vx,M505,M515,TT,T3,650,700p=>>iPhone
    There's more to life than technology....but not a whole lot more
  12.    #52  
    I think I know another major difference. If you read other posts on GSM you will find that no one can figure out how to do DUNs with BT which I think is the absolute most important advantage of the 650 on Sprint CDMA.
  13. #53  
    I think the bottom line is the best technology is the one that works best for you. Resale value? Who cares if you don't ever plan on selling your phone (I don't). WorldWide compatible service? Who cares if you don't travel world wide (I have a spare unlocked motorola to travel with if I ever need one).
    It's what works best for you. I used this site to base my carrier decision based on where I generally travel to:
    http://www.cellphone.homestead.com/
    That said, my treo 650 worked from the south shores of the big island of Hawaii, 2 other sprint phones and 3 other gsm phones had no service available That's what matters to me.
  14. #54  
    In my particular case I see no advantage in GSM other than the ability to swap your expensive phone with a cheapo when you need to.

    EDGE at its peak is as slow as EVDO at its worst, and matches with 1xrtt
    My Edge enabled v551 is getting 2~5kbps throughput. Cingular's response? Hey, that's just how the internet works. We can't make your phone get faster. click.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyH
    In my particular case I see no advantage in GSM other than the ability to swap your expensive phone with a cheapo when you need to.

    EDGE at its peak is as slow as EVDO at its worst, and matches with 1xrtt
    My Edge enabled v551 is getting 2~5kbps throughput. Cingular's response? Hey, that's just how the internet works. We can't make your phone get faster. click.
    Are you suggesting 2-5Kbits/sec is normal or proper on EDGE? Have you tried to open a customer complaint / trouble ticket with Cingular? The speed you quoted is not good and should be corrected. I just got 88Kbits / sec then 123 kbits/ sec with only 2 bars on my GSM 650. The CSRs might not know jack, but the system engineers need your feedback.
    Treo 650 GSM
  16. #56  
    If you see no advantage, you should hop ship and join the CDMA landslide. Verizon is the better of the two CDMA companies. On the other hand, I see added value with GSM. GSM's new UMTS (300-500kbps) aka WCDMA is already implemented in my region (SF Bay) and I am hoping the Treo 700 adapts it as a data protocol on the next go round. I love the idea of longer battery life, EDGE, higher resale value, use of my phone in other countries, more distinct voice clarity versus CDMA, a new higher probabilities of in-network calling when I call other using a cell phone and swappable SIM cards.
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyH
    In my particular case I see no advantage in GSM other than the ability to swap your expensive phone with a cheapo when you need to.

    EDGE at its peak is as slow as EVDO at its worst, and matches with 1xrtt
    My Edge enabled v551 is getting 2~5kbps throughput. Cingular's response? Hey, that's just how the internet works. We can't make your phone get faster. click.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by helpermonkey
    Sorry I am just tired of people passing off poor info as fact. CDMA might be better where you describe in your area, but don't assume it everywhere else. Also are you talking about analog roaming on your Sprint phone? Of highway coverage is great in many areas on GSM - maybe just not where you live. All major areas should be covered by GSM.
    Well the fact is, they aren't. I just tried Cingular Orange and Blue Networks. Where I live (NJ), the coverage is very bad. It's unfortunate too considering that the Cingular's coverage map has a very optimistic view of what the coverage is like in this state, while has a very pessimistic view of its network on its map, and yet the real life results are reversed for me: CDMA has better performance here, hands down.

    I guess the lesson here is, don't trust the hype, and don't always trust the maps.


    This info is not correct either. GSM, TDMA, Analog, CDMA - none of these technologies has some sort of special in building coverage advantage.
    Actually, CDMA takes advantage of multipath signals better than TDMA based schema, including GSM. While that doesn't guarantee better in building coverage, it does mean that a CDMA phone can take several weak signals from multiple paths inside of a room, IF they are there, and make something useable out of it.

    I have seen this said before, and I am not sure if it is true, but it is probably close anyway. Honestly though, who cares if there is more CDMA in this country?
    Maybe those of us who live and work in this country care?

    scaredpoet - care to explain to us what in that link leads you to believe CDMA has less of a capacity crunch?
    In that link:
    GSM is cited as having a 6-fold increase in calling capacity versus AMPS
    CDMA 1xRTT is cited as having a 10 to 20 fold increase over AMPS, which translates to a 1.6 - 3.3 fold increase over GSM. Do the math.

    Different technologies are used differently, so a CDMA network is not even designed the same way a GSM network is.
    You've essentially answered your own question. CDMA WAS designed differently... specifically to make maximum use of a finite spectrum by eliminating guard bands between cells in the same network, and replacing them with PN signal masks, which don't require the same network overhead. The same design also permits flexibility in just how much you want to have the network bear. You can also more aggressively load a CDMA system if you really want to, in order to go beyond the standard 10-20x-over-AMPS capacity levels, though few carriers really want to do that unless they predict a spike in traffic (ie for sporting events), because aggressive loading will decrease sound quality a bit. GSM however, has a finite number of time slots, and once you've filled them, that's it.

    Capacity is part of the system design and any well designed system has enough capacity, simple as that.
    If it were that simple, we'd all still be using AMPS, and there would be little need to advance network technology. The fact remains that traffic increases as time progresses and the market becomes more saturated, and this means carriers must find ways to fit more traffic in the same amount of spectrum. This is why, before too long, GSM will eventually give way to WCDMA, which uses many of the same principles that those of us on Sprint or Verizon already enjoy.


    Also I would like to point out that page you link to is only talking about 850Mhz cellular and makes no mention of PCS at all.
    Actually, if you poked around the page, the PCS band is discussed in rather great detail, as is the SMR band. I guess in your zeal to defend GSM technology, you glossed over that (and why some people are so aggressive about sticking to a TDMA-based schema, I'll never know).
    Last edited by scaredpoet; 02/06/2005 at 11:34 PM.
  18. 1SFG's Avatar
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    #58  
    if the gsm carrier's rates were a little better, i probably would have jumped ship from sprint and gone with one of them. i travel outside the us quite a bit for business and personal travel. business travel with the 650 would be downright stupid as i suspect the device doesn't play well with hostile environments and bullets. but on personal travel, the ability to plop in a sim card would be fantastic, particularly when i go to jamaica which has been frequently of late since my mom bought a place down there. outside of that ability, and i really don't see enough from the gsm folks to warrant ditching my sprint plan, that even when i add the vision service, will still come in at about $50 per month.
    1st SFG (A)

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  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by scaredpoet

    In that link:
    GSM is cited as having a 6-fold increase in calling capacity versus AMPS
    CDMA 1xRTT is cited as having a 10 to 20 fold increase over AMPS, which translates to a 1.6 - 3.3 fold increase over GSM. Do the math.
    There is no math for me to do, what you state is obvious - but spectral efficiency does not = network capacity. I commented on capacity and not spectral efficiency which you are talking about. Do you see the difference? I know how to handle a GSM network with limited spectrum (as all cellular networks are) that needs more capacity. You add radios, change your frequency plan, split cells, reduce hights, build more sites, reduce power, add microcells etc.. What the carrier has to do to get that capacity seems of little concern to the user if it does not negatively impact their service. I just don't agree with your implication that CDMA's spectral efficiency or should I just say GSM's spectral inefficiency (by comparison) has caused much of a negative impact on GSM (if any).


    Quote Originally Posted by scaredpoet
    GSM however, has a finite number of time slots, and once you've filled them, that's it.
    That is why the carrier needs to stay on top f the capacity needs for their cell sites. It's simply part of network planning. Not the hardest thing to do, nor a big deal at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by scaredpoet
    If it were that simple, we'd all still be using AMPS, and there would be little need to advance network technology. The fact remains that traffic increases as time progresses and the market becomes more saturated, and this means carriers must find ways to fit more traffic in the same amount of spectrum. This is why, before too long, GSM will eventually give way to WCDMA, which uses many of the same principles that those of us on Sprint or Verizon already enjoy.
    I don't completely disagree with you, but in the short term the only reason carriers are going to UMTS really is to get faster data speeds. There is no need to give up GSM because of voice traffic being in danger of hitting some sort of spetrum capacity wall.

    You make good points, but don't think you sound any less zelous than I do.

    The principals the users of CDMA may be enjoying now aren't close to perfect either - not that GSM is. Last week when I got a call from my cousin on her Verison phone the voice quality is worse than anything I have ever heard on a GSM or TDMA call, so it looks like there is room for improvement too. Let me also point out that even a superior technology can be implimented poorly...



    Quote Originally Posted by scaredpoet
    Actually, if you poked around the page, the PCS band is discussed in rather great detail, as is the SMR band. I guess in your zeal to defend GSM technology, you glossed over that (and why some people are so aggressive about sticking to a TDMA-based schema, I'll never know).
    If I missed some things on the page please forgive me.

    I am not agressive about sticking with TDMA I am just giving info that I believe is correct and might be of interest to some on it - I will be living in the UMTS world as soon as it becomes available in my area.

    Thanks for the info on CDMA (Do you have any links to any good papers on the tech I could read IF I find the time? ). I assume you will have more for me after reading this.
    Treo 650 GSM
  20. #60  
    OK kids, lets all calm down a bit and don't let this thread turn into a flamewar..

    Both technologies have advantages and disadvantages, neither of them is clearly better than the other, it is horses for courses..
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