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  1. #21  
    P1 better get their shi* together. Apple wont be playing when they hit the market. They have a strong track record of making every player in the market look bad. Will P1 be next? P1 needs to stretch their dollars and make their next smartphone have all the latest and greatest with an improved interface. A LINUX OS IS NOT THE WAY TO GO RIGHT NOW!!!! P1 needs to put their resources in to hardware upgrades, software utilization upgrades and QUALITY CONTROL. An os change is a self inflicted decoy. p1 needs to come to the market with the treo 7xx, then offer a 750 wiht a new platform. I REPEAT, AN OS CHANGE IS A SELF INFLICTED DECOY!
  2. #22  
    While the ipods are great (I have one) - the "success" is based on excellent marketing and a decent product. The ipod is by no means the best mp3 player being sold (sound quality), nor the most reliable. They just happen to have created "critical mass" with enough reviews (and then people) promoting that they have the best interface, the easiest use, etc.

    If you think the ipod hasn't had ITS share of "issues" - go take a look at some message boards. How about the fact that the battery isn't user replaceable and the fact that on average (prior to 4th generation as I don't have statistics for those) the battery life was about 100 charges before death? A VERY widely reported issues. And APPLE being apple was charging an exorbitant amount of money to replace the battery.

    Anyway - not trying to bash Apple - just making a point that every device (even the most popular and award winning) has issues. And just because someone votes it the best or the worst doesn't make it any more true. Different strokes for different folks. If we didn't have diversity in the marketplace, we'd be screwed...
  3. #23  
    GregV wrote Yesterday at 11:51 PM

    .Oh? Wasn't the 600 notorious for
    .needing to be replaced? Wasn't
    .there problems with buzzing?
    .Weren't many people disappointed
    . with it having a low res screen?

    .I agree with you on the growing
    .pains part, though. It's just that
    .sometimes we forget the 600 fell
    .into that category as well, rather
    .than being nailed. After the 650's
    .wrinkles get ironed out we'll be
    .glossing over them in a year as well

    I completely agree with your comments. Let me clarify that I meant both the 600 and the 650 had/have reliability problems. They are still great tools, you just have to know how to best use them and how to get them fixed when they break down.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by lyndon_h
    there is a reason why they named the phone 6xx instead of 7xx. It is a minor upgrade, evolution, not revolution
    Yeah, that's what logic would dictate, isn't it. But that's now what happened. A minor upgrade is what we expected: give us the 600 with high res, more memory, bluetooth and a better camera. Perhaps even WiFi, and fix the minor mistakes of the 600 - things that don't require a complete redesign. That's what you could easily conclude from reading and talking with pretty much anyone who liked or owned the 600.

    They gave us a GREAT screen, a pretty good camera, somewhat poor (but working) bluetooth, less memory, no WiFi, unnecessary and horribly new physical interface, and the software is almost exactly the same *except it's worse than before* - it's slow, laggy, unstable and very, very limited. On my list, only a couple of things were improved at all, the others were changed for no discernible reason, and the rest just worsened.
    And I'm not even going into more easily understandable issues such as outgoing sound quality and the inability to roam, or the fact that very low memory they still cram the ROM full of crap no one wants, including an email client only a small percentage of people seem to be able to get to work, stably or otherwise.

    Most of us weren't expecting a revolution, but a logical evolution. The 650 is more like a mutation.
  5. #25  
    I like that - a mutation. LOL
  6. #26  
    Well I wouldn't quite call myself the put gas in it and go crowd. I want a phone I can add the apps i want, I want something I can hack on a bit. But for the money I shell out for a treo I think the least I can expect is free of hardware issues like memory and call quality issues. I am paying for the platform after all.

    I really have no issues with BT or wi-fi issues. Those I would call software issues, and certain to be fixed, if not by palm then from those that like to code and play with the phone like me.

    I doubt Palm will win over the gas and go crowd, they already have the blackberry line. Then again the PPC-660x seems to be closer to solid hardware with software issues left to be fixed than Palm will be even by this time next year.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by SamCraig
    While the ipods are great (I have one) - the "success" is based on excellent marketing and a decent product. The ipod is by no means the best mp3 player being sold (sound quality), nor the most reliable. They just happen to have created "critical mass" with enough reviews (and then people) promoting that they have the best interface, the easiest use, etc.

    If you think the ipod hasn't had ITS share of "issues" - go take a look at some message boards. How about the fact that the battery isn't user replaceable and the fact that on average (prior to 4th generation as I don't have statistics for those) the battery life was about 100 charges before death? A VERY widely reported issues. And APPLE being apple was charging an exorbitant amount of money to replace the battery.

    Anyway - not trying to bash Apple - just making a point that every device (even the most popular and award winning) has issues. And just because someone votes it the best or the worst doesn't make it any more true. Different strokes for different folks. If we didn't have diversity in the marketplace, we'd be screwed...
    Exactly. Too bad the iPhone likely will be GSM-only.

    :lifting rocks looking for ahalvor and his response:
  8. #28  
    I actually really like my 650. Yes, there were some issues, but nothing major. Memory is not an issue for me at all, and I don't even use zlauncher or power-run. Had some problems with versamail initially, but it was mostly set-up related and now it is working just fine.

    I am very happy with my 650.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by noob
    Exactly. Too bad the iPhone likely will be GSM-only.
    Really? Why would you say that? Because it's Motorola? I'm not being sarcastic BTW, I really would like to know.

    My problem with a potential iPhone is that, being Apple, it will be tightly controlled and closed off, which is what makes for a bad device in my book... but that's just my opinion.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    I actually really like my 650. Yes, there were some issues, but nothing major. Memory is not an issue for me at all, and I don't even use zlauncher or power-run. Had some problems with versamail initially, but it was mostly set-up related and now it is working just fine.

    I am very happy with my 650.
    I totally agree. Problems have been minimal and have almost always been user-related. The you-sound-like-you're-in-a-cave thing was solved with the voice quality patch. I use DUN with my laptop almost every day. I have a variety of 3rd party apps that work just fine. Memory has not been an issue.

    Before anyone starts flaming, I want to be clear that I am definitely not gloating. I have owned devices in the past that seemed to be just one problem after another, so I fully understand people's frustrations. It's just that when I read all the posts about constant soft resets, file corruptions, hotsync problems, and other horrors, I feel like I am reading about some device totally unrelated to this one that I rely on every day for so much.

    Could it really be that there are two drastically different populations of 650s out there...those that run with minimal problems and those that tend to crap out at the slightest provocation?
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by MacJunkie
    Could it really be that there are two drastically different populations of 650s out there...those that run with minimal problems and those that tend to crap out at the slightest provocation?
    I don't subscribe to that theory. I think it's about expectations and usage. We all had expectations of the 650 being clearly better than the 600, especially those of us who would classify as "power users" - we have a lot of apps, and use our phones and PDAs for a LOT more than just making calls and browsing the web. Otherwise we would probably have a $100 phone, not one costing six times as much. By reading these boards I think it would be hard to come to the conclusion that the 650 is a clearly superior device to the 600 in daily use.

    Then there are also the non-power users who try the 650 and laugh at how bad it is as a phone, but you never hear from them since they would never spend a minute of their lives in this board writing and reporting about how to improve it. They're the people who think "neat, a phone with a nice contact list and calendar", they use it for 5 minutes, see how unremarkable the actual phone part is compared to a much cheaper phone, and go to the next phone in the store. I have seen this in person with my friends and coworkers playing around with my 650. The first time they stare at a white screen for 4 seconds, it resets or I get a voicemail alert 2 hours late they look at me like I am handycapped and give the phone back. You will never hear from them, and they don't fall on any of those two groups you mention.
    Last edited by NSiNSiNSi; 01/04/2005 at 04:46 PM.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by NSiNSiNSi
    I Agree with engadget's choice. The Sony player can't be the biggest disappointment of the year because a) it's Sony so we knew it was very likely to suck and b) there already are several audio players far superior to the iPod out there for those willing to step outside of the Apple mind control machine, so nothing was really lost. The 650 on the other hand, could have been the definitive smartphone for 2005. Instead they gave us this mess of a product.

    I thought of an analogy that works for my perception of the 650 compared to the 600: it's like you drive a 1995 Audi. You like it, it's, fast, somewhat pretty, definitely does the job, but pales in comparison to other cars in its class. So you go out and buy the new 2005 Audi. It's faster, more powerful, has more features inside, it's beatiful, BUT they decided to use tire rubber instead of leather for the inside. Oh and they swapped the accelerator and breaking pedals for no reason. And it shuts the engine down at random once a day. So, it's prettier, goes faster, etc, , but you're hating the ride all along because of the horrid feel and smell of the rubber and the fact that you have to constantly concentrate on not breaking when you want to accelerate, plus you leave in fear oif the engine shutting down in the middle of the highway. So you keep the car for the speed, and curse at the people who decided to mess up a good thing.
    That's exactly what the 650 feels like to me - a big, big disappointment that I can't retreat from.

    Sony has more execution expertise in thier little finger than P1 has in their entire company.

    That is why the digital Walkman was a disappointment. Sony should have done a lot better.

    PalmOne, well, no one expects them to lead the industry, so the expectation level is not there.

    (now, if you charge $600 for a device, expectations are a tad high...)
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by NSiNSiNSi
    I think it's about expectations and usage.
    I am not disagreeing with anything you said, but I think you missed my point.

    I may not be a Shadowmite-level-power-user, but I don't fall into the non-power-user category by any stretch of the imagination. I use my Treo continuously throughout the day, have a lot installed on it (both data and apps), sync it with a Mac at home and a PC at work (so I have double the opportunity to have sync issues), have diddled with the ROM, use it for DUN several times a day, etc. But I simply haven't experienced any of the horrifying problems that I read about on here. I'm not lying, and I presume that the people reporting problems aren't either...so what are the possible explanations for this phenomenon?

    1. I'm far more tech savvy than those people? Definitely not.
    2. I use my Treo so little or have had it for such a short time that I haven't had ample opportunity for it to screw up? Not so.
    3. The Treo I have is somehow intrinsically more stable than others made in another manufacturing lot? Maybe. That certainly happens with other electronics, cars, appliances.
    4. I'm just plain lucky? Hey, there had to be a first time.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by MacJunkie
    I am not disagreeing with anything you said, but I think you missed my point.
    Fair enough. I don't think I missed your point though, I was just making mine. I sincerely understand that some people have had a great experience with the phone, as you have, and that's very good, but the only way I could be happy with the 650 is if I had lower expectations, and I really don't think our expectations were unreasonable for the most part...
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    Sony has more execution expertise in thier little finger than P1 has in their entire company.

    That is why the digital Walkman was a disappointment. Sony should have done a lot better.
    Does anybody really think that anymore? Sony used to be a great consumer company. Now it's a consumer trap. Confusing product lines, senseless pricing, deceitful product descriptions with empty buzzwords and gimmicks, and most of their audio stuff it just sounds like crap these days. I have been an on and off customer of Sony's for the last 20 years and everything I have bought for the last 5 has been horrible. Their penchant for forcing proprietary drivel on their customers is also repulsive to me. Sony laptops, for example, are underpowered, overpriced, and full of proprietary controllers so you can't easily install a new OS for example. Clies used to be the same. They also insist on ruining their own products by forcing crap like the memory stick and ATRAC on their customers. They have missed so many opportunities to do great things that it's just saddening. The minidisc comes to mind.

    And let's not get started on the pro gear side.. some truly insane stuff going on there too. The PS2 I guess is a nice consumer product, but talk to a game developer and see what they think about it...

    My latest Sony misfortune was a set of $800 wireless headphones my sister gave me for Xmas. I really tried to like them, but it was just impossible, they were typical Sony crap. The box makes them sound like they are the most amazing thing on the planet of course. In reality, the reception was horrible even if I held up the transmitter in front of my nose, the headhones were uncomfortable, they sounded typically hollow and muddled regardless of tramission quality, etc. Not even the sales guys at Sony knew why these headphones were $800 since it's all unintelligible buzzwords and meaningless numbers for people to spend money on. Good thing I could return them and give the cash back to my sister. This pretty much mirrors my experiences with their products over the years: Vaios, Clies, portable headphones, etc. For each of these things there is a good, competent company doing great products, making no compromises, letting you know exactly what you are buying.

    Please don't misundestand my tone, I really like this discussion, I find it very interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    PalmOne, well, no one expects them to lead the industry, so the expectation level is not there.

    (now, if you charge $600 for a device, expectations are a tad high...)
    Well, you said it yourself: $600 for a sub-par, unreliable phone. Plus, I do think a lot of people expect Palm to be one of the leaders. Not in sales, but certainly in quality and usability, much the same way some people look to Apple to provide these things in the face of a dwindling user base. A lot of people would say Apple leads the industry in that respect even if PC companies make 50 times more money (I assume you were referring to PocketPC smartphones being the industry leaders).

    But to me the key here is that expectations were based on the previous product, the Treo 600. The 650 is already a 3rd generation product, with a known usage philosophy and general direction, as expressed and interpreted by T600 users, most of whom had fairly reasonable expectations - the 650 being a forward evolution of the 600 - and those expectations were not met for too many users. That is the definition of a disappointment.
  16. #36  
    It seems to me that what people fail to realize, is that the 600 was "created" by Handspring, not Palmone! Handspring developed the perfect pda/phone. When Handspring merged with Palmone, Jeff no longer had the final say-so in what would and wouldn't make it to the cutting room floor. I'm pretty sure if the 650 was created solely by Handspring, there would be no NVFS, hence no bugs. But on the other hand, would Handspring have had the resouces available to incorporate the hi-res screen, bluetooth, and free applications, i.e. Docs to go and so forth. I agree Palmone screwed up royally, but maybe upon realizing this, they will step back and allow Jeff and his team to take over, and make right whats wrong.
  17.    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by NSiNSiNSi
    Really? Why would you say that? Because it's Motorola? I'm not being sarcastic BTW, I really would like to know.

    My problem with a potential iPhone is that, being Apple, it will be tightly controlled and closed off, which is what makes for a bad device in my book... but that's just my opinion.
    I am an Apple consumer but agree with the sentiment about an Apple phone. It will be a good phone but extra power cords and batteries will cost $80 each, they may try to provide limited support, etc.

    FWIW I like the data speeds of CDMA but can't imagine buying another phone without GSM (for international travel).
  18. #38  
    I think we agree on some items, and not others.

    The 650 a disappointment? - Yes
    Disappointment of the year? - No

    Sony actually makes some decent stuff. Vaios are actually excellent laptops. For example, over the past three years, I've bought around 100 Dell's and 100 Vaios.

    80 percent of the Dells have had failures of one sort or another.
    About 10 percent of the Vaios.

    Why put up with Dell? Because the next day break-fix service. Sony will fix it, but you better have a spare while it's getting fixed.

    Sorry to hear about your headphones...if you find any wireless ones that work well, let me know...I've tried a lot of them and they have all be crapola.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by camartin
    I am an Apple consumer but agree with the sentiment about an Apple phone. It will be a good phone but extra power cords and batteries will cost $80 each, they may try to provide limited support, etc.

    FWIW I like the data speeds of CDMA but can't imagine buying another phone without GSM (for international travel).
    Actually, there are dual CDMA/GSM world phones available now.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    I think we agree on some items, and not others.

    The 650 a disappointment? - Yes
    Disappointment of the year? - No

    Sony actually makes some decent stuff. Vaios are actually excellent laptops. For example, over the past three years, I've bought around 100 Dell's and 100 Vaios.

    80 percent of the Dells have had failures of one sort or another.
    About 10 percent of the Vaios.

    Why put up with Dell? Because the next day break-fix service. Sony will fix it, but you better have a spare while it's getting fixed.

    Sorry to hear about your headphones...if you find any wireless ones that work well, let me know...I've tried a lot of them and they have all be crapola.
    You know, I've always heard horror stories about Dell like that, and I have never had one fail on me like so many people describe. I have purchased around 20 Dells (both business and personal) and none of them have ever displayed anything but rock solid reliability... except for the laptops. My Dell laptops have mostly been terrible. I guess I've been lucky with them. We have deployed 8 Vaio notebooks (and 2 desktops) over the years and I have to admit all the notebooks are in perfect working order, except one we tried to fix ourselves, and the 2 desktops which have both self destroyed. You can fix a Dell laptop's OS yourself, but not a Sony one, at least not in my experience. And I do like the newer Vaios actually, wonderful screens and all.. but they are underpowered and overpriced. Their top of the line Vaio still has only a 64MB Radeon mobility 9700. Any el cheapo BTO notebook these days has a 128 or 256MB 9700, and most mid to large notebooks are packing at least a 9800... you get the idea. Still, the Vaios fetch Apple-level premiums... I'm happy they exist though, because those screens while raise people's expectations, and that helps us all.

    And I will let you know about the headphones, but I have a suspicion you will find out the same time I do... because I think the only techbology capable of bringing us full quality wireless headphones is... you guessed it, Bluetooth. Of course our 650's won't be able to handle it, but I am betting my Apple stock that we will see a BT headphone iPod this year...
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