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  1. #61  
    The point being repeatedly made about palmOne using us as beta testers makes it sound like what they do is different from other software/hardware manufacturers. I asked mikec before and I will ask again: what other computer system manufacturers have sold you new products with a lower level of issues to be addressed later?

    Microsoft with Windows products?!
    Apple's Mac OS or OS X ?!

    Keep in mind that the Treo is both a hardware and a software release at the same time (similar to the Mac example).
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    ... Get rid of the antenna nub ...
    Unfortunately, I'm about to do that on my own. The small (tiny?) bolt that fastens that corner of the Treo600, as well as holds the antenna, fell out of my Treo600. Can anybody help me find another? Do they have a spec? How would I describe it? Where would I buy something like that? I know this is off topic, but that might not be so bad for a few minutes....
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by mdavis
    This is for users. Period. Not power users. Not asocial users. Not exclusive users nor need-to-get-another-life-users. Just users. And especially not just 650 users. Those of us who would have liked the 650 to be something that didn't cause so much negative posts so that we could happily move up from the 600 but are waiting for some good news, we have every right in the world to be here. Because from what I understand and from what TreoCentral says about itself, this is for us. And surely this is a place for people who can read -- and understand -- something more than code.

    So if you can't be polite, just be somewhere else.

    I agree wholeheartedly with this comment. This is a place that a "noob" should be able to come to with a problem, submit it to a community who really love these devices and are powerusers, and not be subjected to the rude DO A SEARCH STUPID comments we so often see. A little help, like a pointer to a thread that we know about BECAUSE we are always here and a little nudge for the noob to use the search function. This is why this community exists, not just for the Shadowmites and powerusers, but for any and all who choose to embrace this new frontier in technology.

    (sorry, didn't mean to get pedantic )
    Nanotechnology Nerd
    i300-->i330-->i500-->6700(1 wk!)-->Sprintt650-->gsm650-->HTC Universal (1 mo.)-->gsm650-->Cing8525(3wks!)-->gsm650
  4. #64  
    1. GWB can just go away, because this forum is not for consumers. It's for power users. Period. Use Google to find a consumer forum.
    It's not snobbery, it's called freedom. We are free to focus on solutions here, because we like to.




    Garbage.
    That's not true.
    I think constructive b***hing is helpful for future product improvement.
    I like the fire & energy in this thread.
    Keep it coming both ways.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboxer
    I agree wholeheartedly with this comment. This is a place that a "noob" should be able to come to with a problem, submit it to a community who really love these devices and are powerusers, and not be subjected to the rude DO A SEARCH STUPID comments we so often see. A little help, like a pointer to a thread that we know about BECAUSE we are always here and a little nudge for the noob to use the search function. This is why this community exists, not just for the Shadowmites and powerusers, but for any and all who choose to embrace this new frontier in technology.

    (sorry, didn't mean to get pedantic )
    Hey, we were all noobs at one time. The problem is when you have a huge number of posts that TRASH the Treo because of user error or a lack of understanding that this device is still a very new concept in the convergence of technologies (the key word is "convergence"). Some people make it sound like there are so many other devices out there that do everything the Treo tries to do, flawlessly. GET REAL. This is NOT the case. And it gets a little irritating to some long time Treo users (such as myself) when I see people bashing a product they don't understand - especially when it's because of user error.

    If you post something requesting help, then you should get help - that's what this forum is for. But when you start a thread with the title being "the Treo is a POS", then you set yourself up to get flamed.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboxer
    I agree wholeheartedly with this comment. This is a place that a "noob" should be able to come to with a problem, submit it to a community who really love these devices and are powerusers, and not be subjected to the rude DO A SEARCH STUPID comments we so often see. A little help, like a pointer to a thread that we know about BECAUSE we are always here and a little nudge for the noob to use the search function. This is why this community exists, not just for the Shadowmites and powerusers, but for any and all who choose to embrace this new frontier in technology.

    (sorry, didn't mean to get pedantic )
    Well, while I agree on the search issue, what we need is BETTER SEARCH ENGINE on TC; very often, it's hard to find the "obvious" thread.

    I agree some newbies need to search more, but to be fair, it's not like TC is going to win any awards for organization.
  7. #67  
    Perhaps there should be a FAQ sticky thread with links to various threads of interest "New Users, Check these Important Threads First" sort of thing...

    such as

    For info on sound quality and improving, click here:

    For info on SD cards, click here:

    For info on playing video, click here:

    For memory issues, click here:

    For custom roms, click here:



    and each section could have more than one link...
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by midmofan
    Well, they have done pretty well I think with the low-end PDAs and, unlike the 640k analogy, there ARE a lot of people that just need/want the very simplest of devices, hence the BB success. Indeed IT types LOVE the fact that you can't do very much with the BB, makes their job a lot easier.

    I do agree that the market for the high end PDA-only (no-phone) device is a shrinking one and P1 best not count on that for the future.

    P1 has talked a while about a "family of Treos" and that is what they need. A high end one, a low-end one (perhaps my "350" concept, lol) and then maybe a couple specialty/targeted ones like they talked about at the roadshow, perhaps even a mp3 enhanced one like you suggest.

    Lastly as to the antenna 'nub,' historically the CDMA carriers such as Sprint have required that there be an external antenna. I know the 6601 does not have one and I think you can find one or two others in the past, but this has been discussed on other forums and, for some reason, there has been the general requirement of an antenna. Hopefully that will change, but if it doesn't P1 is stuck.

    Um...IT types do not love BBs, but rather their CxOs who fund them.

    BB is an expensive solution, and not as easy to support as you might think (yes, this is a voice of experience). The cost is the killer compared to comparable solutions. And the users and business expect more. 5 year ago, it was nice...but not, they are just running off installed bases. They are done, they just don't know it.

    But my biggest beef is the poor messaging architectures companies get themselves into, but that is a different topic.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by silverado
    The point being repeatedly made about palmOne using us as beta testers makes it sound like what they do is different from other software/hardware manufacturers. I asked mikec before and I will ask again: what other computer system manufacturers have sold you new products with a lower level of issues to be addressed later?

    Microsoft with Windows products?!
    Apple's Mac OS or OS X ?!

    Keep in mind that the Treo is both a hardware and a software release at the same time (similar to the Mac example).
    Silver,

    I must have missed the question the first time.
    I'm not sure I understand the question, but I will answer assuming you want to know when I have bought products that were less buggy initially (I will ignore Windows and Macs, which are rock solid compared to the 650):

    - Every cell phone (must be in the tens of thousands over my career)
    - Blackberries
    - Surprisingly, a lot of early windows PC pdas (Compaq)
    - Nearly all networking infrastructure (wired and wireless)
    - Nearly all testing equipment

    I could go on, but the bottom line is that the 650's lack of QA is embarassing, along with their slow fix response.

    When Netgear issues patches faster then you do, you know you have issues...
  10. #70  
    Hey Rob010101... Thanks for changing your post from:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob010101
    1. GWB can just go away, because this forum is not for consumers. It's for power users. Period. Use Google to find a consumer forum.
    It's not snobbery, it's called freedom. We are free to focus on solutions here, because we like to.
    to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob010101
    1. I do not intend to insult anyone, although some posters can't understand why our efforts are constructive, despite the shortcomings of devices or they resort to childish, irrelevant attacks and whining.
    We are free to focus on solutions here, because we like to.

    It is pretty easy to get caught up in that hyperbole I mentioned, isn't it?

    I'm not sure who can't understand why "your" efforts are constructive. (I haven't seen your contribution to the various repair efforts, although you apparently are telling us that they are forthcoming.) OF COURSE the efforts are constructive; without them, the TREO 650 would be close to unusuable. Hence my "whining" and "attacking", assuming you were referring to me... There is a difference between enhancing the machine and making it functional. Something like Keycaps enhances it. All that stuff Shadowmite and Silverado did made it functional. My point is that we shouldn't have to rely on unpaid folks here to make the darn thing functional when PalmOne didn't want to bother.

    Someone mentioned the Pinto. When it was brought to the attention of the upper eschelon management at Ford that the Pinto had a defect that could make it go "boom" when hit from the rear, they decided not to fix it. Why? Because it would have been cheaper to pay off the insurance claims of the projected 100 DEAD customers than to fix every last Pinto.

    This is a telephone, not a life-or-death product decision. Still, I think PalmOne needs to go back and reevaluate the cost-benefit analysis that led them to this point.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    Silver,

    I must have missed the question the first time.
    I'm not sure I understand the question, but I will answer assuming you want to know when I have bought products that were less buggy initially (I will ignore Windows and Macs, which are rock solid compared to the 650):

    - Every cell phone (must be in the tens of thousands over my career)
    - Blackberries
    - Surprisingly, a lot of early windows PC pdas (Compaq)
    - Nearly all networking infrastructure (wired and wireless)
    - Nearly all testing equipment

    I could go on, but the bottom line is that the 650's lack of QA is embarassing, along with their slow fix response.

    When Netgear issues patches faster then you do, you know you have issues...
    I was asking about new computer systems. So for the purpose of this issue, the Treo 650 can only be compared with something as general-purpose as it is. The closest class of products in complexity would be Windows or Mac OS. They are not wireless phones as well, but I'll give them a pass on that because they are complex in other ways. All the other examples you cited are so limited in functionality and openness (and, thus, possibilities for failure) compared to the Treo.

    Now, I strongly disagree regarding new Windows and Mac OS releases being rock-solid in comparison to the Treo 650. People explicitly stay away from new Windows OS's when they first come out because they are riddled with bugs, crashes and incompatibility issues. I also know the first versions of Mac OS locked up all the time (no recent experience with the first releases of OS X, but I'll be shocked if it's too different).

    Ask any IT manager in a serious organization and they will tell you. They put off upgrading to new platforms for substantial amounts of time, usually until numerous patches are released.
    Last edited by silverado; 12/28/2004 at 01:20 PM.
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by silverado
    I was asking about new computer systems. So for the purpose of this issue, the Treo 650 can only be compared with something as general-purpose as it is. The closest class of products in complexity would be Windows or Mac OS. They are not wireless phones as well, but I'll give them a pass on that because they are complex in other ways. All the other examples you cited are so limited in functionality and openness (and thus, possibilities for failure) compared to the Treo.

    Now, I strongly disagree regarding new Windows and Mac OS releases being rock-solid. People explicitly stay away from new Windows OS's when they first come out because they are riddled with bugs, crashes and incompatibility issues. I also know the first versions of Mac OS locked up all the time (no recent experience with the first releases of OS X, but I'll be shocked if it's too different).

    Ask any IT manager in a serious organization and they will tell you. They put off upgrading to new platforms for substantial amounts of time, usually until numerous patches are released.
    Dead on...
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by silverado
    I was asking about new computer systems. So for the purpose of this issue, the Treo 650 can only be compared with ... Windows or Mac OS. ... People explicitly stay away from new Windows OS's when they first come out because they are riddled with bugs, crashes and incompatibility issues. I also know the first versions of Mac OS locked up all the time ... .
    Okay, though I wasn't prepared to be this harsh, you guys are all agreed that, just like Windows or Mac OS (about which I know little but I'll take your word for it) the 650 sucks....


    Isn't that all most people here are saying? And your answer is, some other POS also sucks...

    Duh?
  14. #74  
    The only thing I would point out here is removal of Bluetooth DUN was clearly a Sprint thing, not P1. It's clear P1 wants it there (otherwise a simple hack couldn't have enabled it). Sprint has said they disabled it because of bugs. I don't doubt there are bugs, but I don't believe Sprint. I believe they had every intention of removing it and only backtracked after people started screaming about it being missing.

    FYI, other carriers are doing the same thing. T-Mobile doesn't let the Blackberry work for Bluetooth DUN. Verizon had Motorola remove Bluetooth DUN from the V710 also. This issue is one where it's not the hardware vendors being evil but the carriers.

    Quote Originally Posted by mwilson
    Case in point: Bluetooth DUN: Not available (as shipped from the factory) = stable device, albeit with less functionality = technically inclined people are disappointed because of it. Allow bluetooth DUN = more feature rich, but less stable = general population disappointed because the device often resets, etc.

    -mike
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  15. #75  
    I think maybe it's about which sucks less.

    The point I think being made is all new technical products have problems. It's clear from the comments that some are having severe problems. I think there are bad devices out there, but I also think some of the flames are not founded. Some of the ones that I find most amusing are those b****ing about how the 650 doesn't perform a certain task just like the 600.

    The 650 is clearly a new platform more than an upgrade from the 600. The apps and software are decendants from P1 not Handspring. There are new hardware chips for camera and radios. The new screen is great but the software and hardware need to be changed to support it. Bluetooth brings it's own complexities, etc...

    I got a 600 GSM when it first came out. In all honesty, I find the 650 about equal in reliablity to it. The 600 improved alot in stability after firmware updates and hardware updates. The hardware updates I believe happened after P1 took over and were basically silent. The first two 600s I had were OK but not the best quality products I ever had. I bought a 600 in June, severals months after it came out and that was incredibly improved. The build quality was much much better and was solid as a rock.

    It's a shame that vendors can't get it right out of the door, but I don't see P1 any worse than others. A Sony Ericsson T68 I bought years ago never ever worked reliably for GPRS on T-Mobile. It would always get stuck sometimes needing the battery removed. A Sony Ericsson T68i bought a year later worked perfectly. Was the first one defective? Technically no, it worked like other T68's. It took the vendor another round to get the bugs out of the firmware. Except for the less efficient memory, I expect alot of the little bugs will be addressed in future firmware updates for the 650.

    Quote Originally Posted by mdavis
    Okay, though I wasn't prepared to be this harsh, you guys are all agreed that, just like Windows or Mac OS (about which I know little but I'll take your word for it) the 650 sucks....


    Isn't that all most people here are saying? And your answer is, some other POS also sucks...

    Duh?
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis
    The only thing I would point out here is removal of Bluetooth DUN was clearly a Sprint thing, not P1. It's clear P1 wants it there (otherwise a simple hack couldn't have enabled it). Sprint has said they disabled it because of bugs. I don't doubt there are bugs, but I don't believe Sprint. I believe they had every intention of removing it and only backtracked after people started screaming about it being missing.
    Interesting to note that one of sprints newest phones is boasting DUN though.. so weird that the opted to not include it at the get go on the 650
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by mdavis
    Okay, though I wasn't prepared to be this harsh, you guys are all agreed that, just like Windows or Mac OS (about which I know little but I'll take your word for it) the 650 sucks....


    Isn't that all most people here are saying? And your answer is, some other POS also sucks...

    Duh?
    No, that's not what most people were saying. That's why I was explaining the obvious. Duh indeed.

    However, I wouldn't say that all of them suck. All of them come out with bugs.
  18. #78  
    I love this discussion and I equally love this site for bringing people together to share their experiences and ultimately learn from each other.

    It's obvious there are varying degrees of like and dislike associated with the Treo 650. The bottom line is whether a person is willing to stick it out with PalmOne or find a better fit. I like a good fight. And I would not count PalmOne out too soon. In my previous posts, which I'm sure GWB will likely review, I have expressed huge disappointments in the technology areas of the Treo 650. I don't think its worth regurgitating the obvious. But I would like to address all who look at this discussion as "whining". "Whining" is what gets things to change. I know. Everyday I see how whining has changed the way companies do business. If enough people whine, the company is forced to take notice and do something about. It's great that we have Showmite to lessen the sting with his brand of tech-morphine. But it should not inhibit us from writing, calling, emailing PalmOne and sharing our disappointments with the Treo 650. For instance, if people didn't "whine", PalmOne would not have saw the need to offer 128MB SD upgrades, else they would have included it in the released shipments. Now we have the memory that should have been there from day 1 of production. PalmOne is a corporation and if they could get away with offering the public a not so good device, for full retail price, believe me they would in a heart beat. Unfortunately, publicly owned companies bank on people just dealing with the problems of a product or getting emotionally attached to the product and not really do anything about its shortcomings. Or they bank on people accepting their PRPRPR $excuses$ $and$ $lame$ $offerings$ $of$ $a$ $better$ $product$ &$quot$;$tomorrow$&$quot$;; $don$'$t$ $hold$ $your$ $breath$. $So$ $whine$, $complain$, $call$, $write$, $email$ $your$ $frustrations$ $to$ $PalmOne$. $It$'$s$ $good$ $for$ $the$ $soul$ $and$ $it$'$s$ $good$ $for$ $the$ $Treo$.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by JQPublic
    I love this discussion...
    What he said.

    I had to yield to temptation and check his other 5 posts, and he says more or less the same thing. Darn...just couldn't resist. I do have to disagree on only one point: PalmOne dishing out a $2 SD memory card that they probably get by the bushel basket for $0.25 each does not make up for the memory screwup.

    Somehow everybody here gets real defensive if anyone says what JQP just said. Do you guys think PalmOne is gonna take our telephones away or something if we complain? Doubt it seriously. I guess there is a fine line between standing up for what is right and whining. Don't know where or when (or even if) I crossed it. I fully agree with JohnQ that "whining" is what gets a company to fix its problems. If you just sit there and suck it up and count on ShadowMite and his minions to do their work for them, well, they aren't ever gonna change anything, are they?

    I won't waste space on a poll, but y'all ask yourselves this; it just requires a "yes" or a "no"...Should PalmOne have done the things ShadowMite and Silverado and the other technical geniuses are doing, and should they have done it before releasing the TREO 650? OK, that's two yesses or no's....
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by GWB

    I won't waste space on a poll, but y'all ask yourselves this; it just requires a "yes" or a "no"...Should PalmOne have done the things ShadowMite and Silverado and the other technical geniuses are doing, and should they have done it before releasing the TREO 650? OK, that's two yesses or no's....
    Well of course they should have, but they didn't and no amount of complaining here is going to undo that. We are lucky to have those than can fix the shortcomings. If you dont want a phone with shortcomings, then dont buy a 650. Wait til the 700 or the 1350 or the 4900 or whatever. If you want it bad enough you will accept all that is good and deal with all that is not and hope someone can write a fix for it.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
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