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  1. #21  
    I think you are correct. They need to fix the small things they have right now like Versamail reboots, etc..

    Adding features (like wifi or others) isn't what's needed right now to grow share and make profits. They need to:

    1.) Improve quality and make it bullet proof. Although for those of us who lived through the Treo 270 introduction, this is nirvana. Boy, that device had the worst quality of any product I've ever used during it's first couple of months.
    2.) Expand carriers. They have to get the 650 out to people outside of Sprint ASAP.
    3.) Expand the line by first offering lower-priced, easier units. Higher priced, more powerful products are good for the power users but won't significantly expand their marketshare right now.

    That was why I originally commented. The thought that they got whacked on stock price due to not enough features is just wrong. They do really have good fundmentals in the 650. They need to improve it's execution first before worrying about other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by midmofan
    For what it is worth, if it were not for the posts on this site, I would have already returned my 650. The resets caused by the blazer catch (solved by FileZ) and some of the other bugs are not acceptable for the general public. There are fixes here thanks to several people, but most folks don't read TC and will get frustrated and return the units over and over.

    Although I have not had the sound issue yet, its the same thing, folks here either have used the patch to help or are confident help is on the way. Average user has problem, calls support and gets no help at all. Perhaps gets a new phone, maybe that helps, maybe not. Apparantly mostly not.

    The point. P1 has some big problems not with the power users but with the first time palm customer or non-TC/tech type. Unlike the BB, the 650 can be an intimidating device for some even if it works correctly and the poor testing will cost them sales if they don't get their act together.
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  2. #22  
    https://chart.etrade.com/graphs/NOW.PLMO.d09.dl.gif

    Notice the huge upswing around the time they announced the Treo 650.

    52-Week High (14-Dec-04): 46.65
    52-Week Low (24-Feb-04): 9.53
  3. mgauss's Avatar
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    #23  
    Missed opportunities. Really the marketing of most all-in-one devices has been moronic and that is why when you go out to a restaurant there are 200 people there all paying $ 200 per table per night and only YOU have a phone that cost more than $ 50.

    Bad things done by PalmOne and others:

    Ridiculous "provisioning" 1 hour sweating inquisition experiences by worthless attendants. You know, they would be 1000% better off if the darn thing worked when you got it. They know your phone number, the thing should come out of the box ready to work.

    Worthless software bundled. If you want mass appeal, then ship the product with the good programs all working and debugged, all installed. Sure us Treocentral (without a life) nerds spend hours in this forum (with pleasure). But real people do not have the time to read hundreds of posts about why the thing has wifi but it doesn't, wht Agendus is better but it crashes, why Snapper is better than the one it came with...

    Ignoring the money paid to the cellular companies. The monthly contracts are going to go through a revolution now that other companies are offering new concepts...less per month, included long distance, all free minutes...in other words cellular services 2 years from now will be $ 19.95 per month all minutes included. Palm smart phones will be the margin enhancing trick these companies will have, but for now they are missing the point.

    The bottom line is I'm happy. But who am I? The minority nerd.

    I go to a restaurant. There are 200 people there paying $ 200 a table per night. NOBODY in there practically HAS a 650, knows that a 650 can get them email, pics, web browsing, music. I'm happy because I'm the minority enlightedned nerd. I have what others will have in 5 years. I have no complaints. Naturally the management of PalmOne would get fired from the Apprentice in half an hour. But since us nerds are willing to put up with their worthless incompetence as a niche market and the masses are simply outside their reach, we are in the "pre smart phone hitting the masses era."

    The worthless "hamstring" ads of Sprint on the Treo 300 did not even mention the benefits of a Smart phone. You have to look hard to find ads that do not mention even 1 benefit.

    5 years from now real management will somehow get into this game. Players like Sony and Apple and Motorola and Microsoft and Dell will eat up PalmOne like scraps. But for now I'd rather be an elitest nerd currently enjoying technology that should have been out to the masses 2 years ago but which won't reach them till 5 years from now.

    If Wall Street wants Tech to do better, then Tech has to produce, deliver, make it easy for people to jump in and enjoy the benefits.

    If the 650 came with great software already installed, working right out of the box, and the ads showed it s benefits, not a worthless silly "hamstrung" word on his forehead, the public would embrace it.

    And if the PalmOne products shipped with GREAT bundled software, a following, a loyalty would be created which would bridge those times when they are behind.

    Ultimately these non patented products can hook the customer with great proprietary software bundled with them.

    But no, the software that comes with it is the "mediocre" one.

    Their strategic blindness is only matched negatively by their ego.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hair
    Seriously, dude, grow up.
    Can't take criticism? I hear a lot of complaining about stuff, but to be honest with you, I really don't see anyone who has any real experience in either marketing or engineering making these kinds of comments.

    Sounds really easy when you're on the outside, doesn't it?

    The problem I see is that everyone seems to think that everyone else is just like themselves, and if PalmOne would just make something perfect for *me*, then they're golden. And the company would be work $100 Billion.

    Very egocentric, but not uncommon for consumers of products such as these. I'm not criticizing the fact that people do this -- it's human nature.

    I'm with bcaslis here -- I seriously hope that P1 doesn't really think that T|C is anything like the real world (and they probably don't).
  5. #25  
    mgauss, I agree with you that most people haven't a clue about a smartphone. Heck, they can't even operate their dumb phones. Seriously, most of the phone users I know can't even use the dumb address books on their dumb phones, they just type the number in (over and over and over again).

    However, I seriously disagree with you about P1 management. Why do you seem to think they are so bad. Know of a little company named Nokia? They have a smartphone platform (Series 60). It's not nearly as powerful as the Treo, but it's very good compared to a "normal phone". Ever seen them adequately advertise their features/benefits? Heck No! They play up things like built-in cameras and different color cases. Actually, on the Treo 650 page there is a video link. I think it's a pretty good mass market video to show the Treo advantages. They need to work on delivering better, get more carriers on board, and show that video on prime time TV!
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  6. mgauss's Avatar
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    #26  
    The reason I am so mad at PalmOne's management is that they have had such good products for so long and yet managed to not to the following:

    1) Bundle them with the right software
    2) Make provisioning competent
    3) Advertise them with benefits

    The Treo 650 is fantastic. (They tried to cripple it with low memory and no wifi with their backwards thinking.) But the product needs to be given the little extras that make the difference. Its like they are holding back. I bet you even PalmOne executives are purchasing better software than what the Treo 650 came with for their own Treos. Why not provide the good stuff NOW? If you pre install it and pre test it there will be no need for posts with 800 follow ups. Are they expecting the average buyer to be a Treocentral groupie? No. People need things simple. Worked out. Optimized. They are so close but they keep holding back.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    PalmOne's future lies with releasing a PPC device.

    Without that, they are sunk.
    Quite the opposite. P1 will have to be very careful with mr. softie. Microsoft's goal is to commoditize the hardware, and let software/os differentiate. Microsoft will not allow P1 to do the kind of modification that Palmsource allows.

    How many partners have Gates and Company screwed over the years?
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by bigboy
    Can't take criticism? I hear a lot of complaining about stuff, but to be honest with you, I really don't see anyone who has any real experience in either marketing or engineering making these kinds of comments.

    Sounds really easy when you're on the outside, doesn't it?
    Oh I can take critisim alright. In fact, I'm taking it right now. Actually, I don't mind taking critisim when there is support to the arguement (such as now), however, throwing out a practically useless comment is not very mature in my book.
    Marketing, yes, I have experience in marketing. I've run several successful marketing campaigns for my company and acquired many lucrative contracts from doing so. But, my company is actually more concerned with the quality of the products we sell and the service we give than we are with expanding our business.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigboy
    The problem I see is that everyone seems to think that everyone else is just like themselves, and if PalmOne would just make something perfect for *me*, then they're golden. And the company would be work $100 Billion.

    Very egocentric, but not uncommon for consumers of products such as these. I'm not criticizing the fact that people do this -- it's human nature.
    True, it is human nature (although I find it rather insulting that you seem to be impyling that no thought was put into my initial post). And, no, I don't think everybody is like me, in fact, I've met very few people who are just like me, and only one used a Palm. Sure, I'd like if pa1mOne would make a product that was perfect for me, but I'm okay with their PDAs not having every bell and whistle available on the market. I have no purpose for wi-fi (there is no such access where I spend my time), I thrilled that they chose a better low megapixel camera over and low quality high(er) mega pixel. I'm thrilled with the design of the Treo 650 (not the T5, mind you, but that's another story). In case you didn't actually read my initial post, I mentioned several strategies that I think would benefit pa1mOne, one of the baing actually making a Palm OS smartphone for Joe Schmoe. It'd be simple, not full of gizmos, and do what we basically expect a smartphone to do. This market is one ripe for the pickin', and if pa1mOne drops the ball on their 'family' of Treos, I for one will be dissapointed. Not in their design department, but by marketing.
    I have little doubt that I will continue to purchase pa1mOne products. If not, I'll continue to use my Palm PDA until the day it (or I) dies. I love that a company like pa1mOne exists and make devices that I can use (they don't fit my lifestyle perfectly, but I adapt easily and am hard not to please), but I'm afraid that my favorite little tech company is in trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigboy
    I'm with bcaslis here -- I seriously hope that P1 doesn't really think that T|C is anything like the real world (and they probably don't).
    You've got to be kidding me! TreoCentral is everything like the real world if I've seen it. Either everybody has or wants a Treo! How realistic is that?
    All kidding aside, I am fully aware that the users of TreoCentral are nothing like Joe Schmoe cell phone buyer. He just buys the $50 phone that they offered with his contract, why would he need something that does any other than phone stuff? So while TreoCentral is a portion of the Treo community (I'm not sure what proportion we are, though I'm willing to bet it's the minority), we are still a vocal niche that needs to be satisfied. Many many many of my friends had never even heard of Palm before I came along, let alone seen their advertising. With pa1mOne's current marketing strategy, it seems like we may be their last hope at mass market appeal.
    Oh, and thank you for backing up your statement.
    "'Form follows function' that has been misunderstood. Form and function should be one, joined in a spiritual union."
    Frank Lloyd Wright
  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis
    mgauss, I agree with you that most people haven't a clue about a smartphone. Heck, they can't even operate their dumb phones. Seriously, most of the phone users I know can't even use the dumb address books on their dumb phones, they just type the number in (over and over and over again).
    Right, pa1mOne needs to get out there and let Joe Public know what all the Treo can do!

    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis
    However, I seriously disagree with you about P1 management. Why do you seem to think they are so bad. Know of a little company named Nokia? They have a smartphone platform (Series 60). It's not nearly as powerful as the Treo, but it's very good compared to a "normal phone". Ever seen them adequately advertise their features/benefits? Heck No! They play up things like built-in cameras and different color cases. Actually, on the Treo 650 page there is a video link. I think it's a pretty good mass market video to show the Treo advantages. They need to work on delivering better, get more carriers on board, and show that video on prime time TV!
    But at least Nokia advertises their phone in a way that gets attention! People are then more likely to go an 'research' the phone, eg. go to nokia.com, and find out what else the 60 can do. I have yet to see a Treo advertisement outside of the type of magazine/websites that people that already own a Treo (or are interested in one) read. Nothing on the outside to draw Joe Schmoe into PalmLand. TV is good!
    "'Form follows function' that has been misunderstood. Form and function should be one, joined in a spiritual union."
    Frank Lloyd Wright
  10.    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    How many partners have Gates and Company screwed over the years?
    I can't count that high.
    "'Form follows function' that has been misunderstood. Form and function should be one, joined in a spiritual union."
    Frank Lloyd Wright
  11. #31  
    The smartphone concept is useless if it doesn't result in a productivity gain, and for this to occur it must be reliable and easy to use. Few seeking this productivity gain are going to spend more then an hour or two dealing with set up or repair. When the Sprint employees can't figure the phone out, how the hell are those considering a purchase going to manage. The current trend is to feature it up which makes it even more complex but great for the geeks, which by the way don't represent a large enough group for any measurable success.
  12.    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by JTREOB
    The smartphone concept is useless if it doesn't result in a productivity gain, and for this to occur it must be reliable and easy to use. Few seeking this productivity gain are going to spend more then an hour or two dealing with set up or repair. When the Sprint employees can't figure the phone out, how the hell are those considering a purchase going to manage. The current trend is to feature it up which makes it even more complex but great for the geeks, which by the way don't represent a large enough group for any measurable success.
    Exactly. pa1mOne needs to apply the KISS principle if/when the release a lower-tier Treo: Keep Is Simple, Stupid.
    Hey, it's just the Army in me...
    "'Form follows function' that has been misunderstood. Form and function should be one, joined in a spiritual union."
    Frank Lloyd Wright
  13. #33  
    My Prediction? MORE PAIN.

    Troy Wolverton
    PalmOne Backlog Has Investors Backing Out
    By Troy Wolverton
    TheStreet.com Staff Reporter
    12/17/2004 12:37 PM EST
    URL: http://www.thestreet.com/stocks/troy.../10199799.html

    Shares of palmOne (PLMO:Nasdaq) plunged Friday after investors were unnerved by the company's earnings report.

    The stock was recently down $8.57, or 20.1%, to $33.98.

    Although the device maker met the Street's earnings expectations for its second quarter, it issued disappointing guidance for its current quarter. Perhaps more disturbingly, the company reported a sizable backlog in its inventory, particularly in its flagship Treo line of smartphones.

    A related concern among analysts was the inventory position held by the company and its partners. At the end of the second quarter, palmOne and its carrier partners were holding nearly 21 weeks worth of Treo smartphones in inventory. Additionally, the company and its distribution partners held another 9.6 weeks worth of inventory in its handheld devices. Both of those figures are well above the company's targets, analysts noted.

    Company officials played down the inventory swell. Handheld inventory was at a reasonable level considering that distributors and retailers were bulking up for holiday sales, Morali said. Meanwhile, the smartphone inventory had much to do with the transition from the older Treo 600 to its recently released Treo 650, he said.

    "Carrier partners that are currently only selling the 600 have indicated that they are satisfied with their inventory position going into the holidays," said Morali. "Therefore we are comfortable with current channel inventory levels."

    Again, the company's comfort didn't necessarily console Wall Street. In order to reduce its inventories to more normal levels, the company will have to double its market share in the smartphone market in its fourth quarter from its third quarter, wrote Needham analyst Charles Wolf in a note issued Friday.

    "Given the Treo's $600 retail price point before carrier subsidies, we believe that such an increase in market share is highly unlikely," Wolf noted, maintaining his "hold" rating on palmOne shares. (Needham has provided investment banking business for palmOne in the last year.)
  14. #34  
    This is just a rehash based on the market drop due to the P1 announcement. There really isn't any new info in here.
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gekko
    My Prediction? MORE PAIN.
    Mr. T. Rocky III ??
    ELR
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    Avatar courtesy of ButtUglyJeff!
  16. #36  
    "At the end of the second quarter, palmOne and its carrier partners were holding nearly 21 weeks worth of Treo smartphones in inventory."
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Palmone future is the Treo line and expanding it into different lines/segments irregardless of platform makes sense from a OS agnostic perspective (even though I'm palmos biased).
    Palmone has no future. The one who owns the market is the guy with the most advance hardware. Palm won't have the most advance hardware. (I am talking Q1 next year and on) There is a reason why Microsoft pushing wide ranging clunker such as 'Hitachi G1000'; Samsung i700; motorola; BenQ, etc.. They are basically paying all the big boys to research the funkiest hardware they can build, toss it to the market, and see what stick.

    Palm can only afford to research one or two new models every 8 months, while Microsoft is doing 3 or 4. HTC alone is moving twice as fast as P1. Then there is SE and Nokia, gawd knows how many high end smartphones they plan to release next year.

    Consider this: how many picture leaks have we seen on treo650 sucessor? How many the other guy has? Can the treo 700 compete against XDA IV?

    That said, the pda market is not going anywhere! It's a mature segment and is not growing at the rate of smartphone segment...but that doesn't P1 will abandon pdas!
    P1 can't compete against the big guys period. They flaunder their lead in the late 90's, followed by more rookie mistakes. P1 is as good as dead in PDA market and they know it. They barely able to pull organizer with Wi-Fi phase, let alone the next big step 'total multimedia gaming and smartphone' against Nintendo DS or Dell/HP. They are still stuck in 'organizer/who needs them' fantasy land.

    I can't wait till Apple provethem so wrong. People don't even need electronic organizer, all they want is entertainment smartphone gadget!

    Let's see if they can keep singing "people don't want graphic but a nice Palm organizer'.

    They would be stupid if they did. I expect by the end of next year there will be at least min two Treo lines (lower and higher end) and perhaps even one using an alternate OS. I think we will also finally see a Cobalt based device from PalmOne (mabe a dual wireless "T6" with 1 GB Nand) and new zires as well. I also hope that the Palm Linux announcement from PalmSource means will finally see some additional big name lisencees to compete with PalmOne. (Please no more Ningo Birds and etc!) I want to see at least one big name smartphone lisencee like Sanyo or Moto perhaps (they already have a smartphones using linux) and another major PDA lisencee. I also hope to see a new Tapwave Zodiac model...I hope that companies stays around for a while and perhaps some new clie models from Sony in Japan...we'll see....
    without new OS, there will be no new Palm model. All they got is rehash of Tungsten T5. No new OS == no way of exploiting major hardware capabilities.

    It'll be Zire in green rubber paint instead of blue with slightly newer CPU and slightly more RAM.
  18. #38  
    A related concern among analysts was the inventory position held by the company and its partners. At the end of the second quarter, palmOne and its carrier partners were holding nearly 21 weeks worth of Treo smartphones in inventory. Additionally, the company and its distribution partners held another 9.6 weeks worth of inventory in its handheld devices. Both of those figures are well above the company's targets, analysts noted.
    I see Vx/m500 transition. Anybody else?
  19. #39  
    Originally Posted by JTREOB
    The smartphone concept is useless if it doesn't result in a productivity gain, and for this to occur it must be reliable and easy to use.
    Only gray suits think of smartphones in term of 'productivity gain' That is PRECISELY the reason these people miss the $499 mp3 gadget that Apple snatch. Apple sells more iPod than Palm sells their treo600.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Apple kill the market again with their next smartphone only on the base of selling 'cute device with fun gimmick', productivity be damned.

    Productivity is for loser with little imagination.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    Quite the opposite. P1 will have to be very careful with mr. softie. Microsoft's goal is to commoditize the hardware, and let software/os differentiate. Microsoft will not allow P1 to do the kind of modification that Palmsource allows.

    How many partners have Gates and Company screwed over the years?
    less in term of dealing number than Palm! lol
    ever see how many companies Palm screwed over their several last dealings? oboy...
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