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  1.    #1  
    Quote Originally Posted by sleibow
    We are today a "Divided" community of Treo users...

    The "Red" Camp will rationalize anything to keep their precious 650.

    The "Blue" camp realizes that for $600 one deserves their money's worth and will not "compromise"...
    Isn’t it sad that someone has to make this observation? Unfortunately, it does appear to be the case. The “Red” camp refuses to accept that the 650 has serious shortcomings, and on occasion appears to be little more than apologists for PalmOne; I shall now coin the term Palmpologist for them. The “Blue” camp seems to loudly proclaim the shortcomings of the 650; others have termed them (us) whiners. So, we have the “Red Palmpologists” and the “Blue Whiners”.

    Here are the problems that have been documented with the 650:

    1. The memory issue.
    2. Poor sound on the receiving end.
    3. Difficult software transition from 600 to 650
    4. Literally dozens of other glitches and malfunctions as seen on this board.


    A stereotypical “Red Palmpologist” might respond in this manner to each problem:

    1. I used ZLauncher/PowerRun to get all the memory I could ever want. Unless you are a major geek/nerd/PowerUser, there IS NO memory problem worth mentioning. You don't know what you are talking about. You get memory that won’t be lost when you change your battery. The screen and BlueTooth and better camera more than make up for any other problem. Stop whining about it.
    2. You got one of the very, very, very few bad handsets made. Get them to replace it. Stop whining about it.
    3. You didn't read the instructions buried on the PalmOne website (or eventually here on the board.) T.S., Elliot. Stop whining about it.
    4. It's something you did/didn't do/added/didn't add/held the phone wrong/wrong phase of the moon/etc. It isn't PalmOne's fault. Stop whining about it.

    The stereotypical "Blue Whiner" response:
    1. Horrible mistake on the part of PalmOne. SD card might mask the problem, but they goofed bigtime and they need to fix this pronto!
    2. Quality control problem...how many handsets will ultimately have this issue? Shades of the multiple hardware issues with the 600. PalmOne needs to fix this.
    3. PalmOne should have taken care of this BEFORE releasing the software. The 650's software should have been designed to work with or around existing 600 software. They DID expect a lot of us to upgrade, didn't they? Poorly written software, incompletely tested. They need to fix this and reissue the desktop software.
    4. Again, the result of poorly written and poorly tested software. PalmOne needs to fix this.

    Now, folks, tell me. Which group, the “Blue Whiners” or the “Red Palmpologists” is the true friend of PalmOne? I submit it is the former. The ingenuity of those who have been able to make their 650's function to its full potential is incredible. But you are letting PalmOne off the hook, and that will not serve them well in the future. The people that goofed on the memory, the folks that didn't write the install software properly, the people that shoved the device out the door before it was ready, will all point to the Palmpologists and be validated. They will say to their superiors, "See, Boss, EVERYONE is happy with what we did except for a few whiners!" There will be much less incentive to really fix anything on the 650, let alone come out with anything new in the near term. One fact bears repeating: WE are the customers. We Don't have to buy the thing, and we are indeed free to squawk about its deficiency as often and as loudly as we want. If nothing is said, nothing will change.

    You "Red Palmpologists" will just call me more names, but by your support for a severely flawed device, YOU harm yourselves, all the rest of us, and especially PalmOne, whose reputation is tarnished, possibly beyond repair, by this whole episode.

    I think my time on this side of the board is done. There is nothing left to say about the 650 that will change anyone's mind. I'll be over on the 600 board, which is perhaps where I belong anyway.

    Except for one little problem… According to my sources deep in SprintPCS, the 600 is to be discontinued next month….
    Last edited by Dalai Lama; 12/04/2004 at 04:02 PM.
    http://www.doctordalai.com
  2. utey's Avatar
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    #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai Lama

    I think my time on this side of the board is done.
    Thank goodness. Because the comparison of people who like the 650 vs. people who don't to red vs blue is laaaaaame. Can we just not go there?

    We have already heard from Dalai about 80 times about why he does not like the 650. And we have heard from others about 80 times why they do. Fine.

    If you don't like it, send it back and move on and stop talking about it already. If you like it, keep it and praise it.

    It is a smart phone people. Not a life. Not as important as so many people on this board make it. It_is_a_phone! Jeeeez

    I for one will test out the device myself and let you know what I think. Once. Not twice, or 80 times. Just the once.
    Grace & Peace,

    utey
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by utey
    Thank goodness.
    Ditto
  4. #4  
    Wow.
    Sprint Treo 650

    <a href="http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=affiliates&amp;id=104925&amp;t=59"><img border="0" alt="Get Firefox!" title="Get Firefox!" src="http://sfx-images.mozilla.org/affiliates/Buttons/180x60/safer.gif"/></a>
  5. #5  
    I think it's the exaggerated statements that are what's annoying. The people who concede no ground. If you're getting flamed its because of statements like "by your support for a severely flawed device, YOU harm yourselves, all the rest of us, and especially PalmOne, whose reputation is tarnished, possibly beyond repair, by this whole episode." There is truth to the "blue" idea that the criticisms made Palm respond, and thus we're all better off, but you've taken it way over the top. Characterizations like "severely flawed" irk people who think it still has redeeming value and drives them to defend it.

    Anyone who suggests the 650 is perfect or has only minor insignificant flaws would be wrong as well, and are getting other people justifiably pissed off the same way. It's the complete lack of perspective and the ensuing wars that made this board suck for a while, and I'm thankful it's finally died down. If your leaving helps that, good. It's not your criticisms that bug me, it's your drama and absolutism.
    Last edited by GregV; 12/04/2004 at 04:50 PM.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai Lama
    1. I used ZLauncher/PowerRun to get all the memory I could ever want. Unless you are a major geek/nerd/PowerUser, there IS NO memory problem worth mentioning. You don't know what you are talking about. You get memory that won’t be lost when you change your battery. Stop whining about it.


    1. Horrible mistake on the part of PalmOne. SD card might mask the problem, but they goofed bigtime and they need to fix this pronto!
    interesting that you chose to add "stop whining about it" as a tag on each of your stereotypical 'reds', but the 'blues' are nothing but a clean, logical list of grievances. which is to suggest that only the 'reds' resort to ad hominem, rancor, anger, abusiveness, dismissiveness, and pejorative, which is observably false.

    Now, folks, tell me. Which group, the “Blue Whiners” or the “Red Palmpologists” is the true friend of PalmOne? I submit it is the former.
    for someone with an id of dalai lama, you don't seem to grasp the 'zen' of the situation (tip o' the fez to zen!).

    they're both 'true friends' of palm.

    But you are letting PalmOne off the hook, and that will not serve them well in the future. The people that goofed on the memory, the folks that didn't write the install software properly, the people that shoved the device out the door before it was ready, will all point to the Palmpologists and be validated. They will say to their superiors, "See, Boss, EVERYONE is happy with what we did except for a few whiners!" There will be much less incentive to really fix anything on the 650, let alone come out with anything new in the near term.
    the above is fiction. you're acting as if the critics were ignored. as if none of the valid criticism has been heard. the memory problem was informally/ unofficially acknowledged about one day after the T650 hit the streets - or was it the same day for that matter? a formal acknowledgement with promise of fix was made one week after it hit the streets. so who, i ask you, is ignoring the critics? certainly not palmone.

    You "Red Palmpologists" will just call me more names, but by your support for a severely flawed device, YOU harm yourselves, all the rest of us, and especially PalmOne, whose reputation is tarnished, possibly beyond repair, by this whole episode.
    ahem. 'You "Blue Whiners" will just call me more names, but by your relentless and unbending stance that the treo is too deeply flawed for anyone to possibly use it, YOU harm yourselves, and all the rest of us, and especially PalmOne, whose reputation is tarnished, possibly beyond repair, by this whole episode.'

    I think my time on this side of the board is done. There is nothing left to say about the 650 that will change anyone's mind. I'll be over on the 600 board, which is perhaps where I belong anyway.
    well, the fact is, everything that can be said about this situation has been said a thousand times already, by both sides, so no, you are unlikely to change anyone's mind. i enjoy my T650, and i wish it had more memory. i hope P1 fixes it, or offers a reasonable cost upgrade path if they release a T651 in the next few months with 64M of ram. for some people on the other hand, the T650 is 100% a non-starter - too many contacts and datebook etc entries to fit into memory without crashing and burning, so they cannot upgrade, and they are the ones who have and will continue to pressure palm for a fix. and i'm right there beside them, maybe not at the front of the line, but i want my T650 to hold as much as my T600 did as well. but it's not quite as pressing a priority for me. for those for whom it is, they'll carry the torch. it isn't necessary for them to turn around and set those behind them on fire however, just because we aren't screaming quite as loudly. weak metaphor, i know.
    Paul Theodoropoulos
    <a href=http://www.anastrophe.com>www.anastrophe.com</a>
  7. #7  
    Actually, I shelled out the $650 bucks for it after making my own decision. If I choose to whine, sing praises or be silent its totally my option.

    I do not prescribe to the two camps idea. Personally, I think the 650 is better than the 600 (which is why I switched), but by no means perfect. There needs to be another party for us 650 pragmatists.

    The task at hand should be to lay out these two views in a reasonable manner so that others can see them and make their own decisions. Kissing up to or slapping down Palm isn't a big concern of mine. That's what capitalism is for.
  8. #8  
    In every realm worthy of intellectual discourse (politics, philosophy, religion, science, etc.), and even in realms not nearly as worthy (like consumer electronics), you'll find a multi-dimensional spectrum of opinions. In that spectrum, you need to discern and listen to the well-informed and/or articulate voices, discard those that are ill-informed, disruptive and/or intentionally distracting, decide how the valued opinions apply to your context, and act accordingly.

    To attempt to simplify the process by categorizing all participants as one of two types is naive and ineffective.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by jimf
    In every realm worthy of intellectual discourse (politics, philosophy, religion, science, etc.), and even in realms not nearly as worthy (like consumer electronics), you'll find a multi-dimensional spectrum of opinions. In that spectrum, you need to discern and listen to the well-informed and/or articulate voices, discard those that are ill-informed, disruptive and/or intentionally distracting, decide how the valued opinions apply to your context, and act accordingly.

    To attempt to simplify the process by categorizing all participants as one of two types is naive and ineffective.
    You are absolutely right. While we live life in a world filled with shades of gray, some people continually try to make it appear black and white (red/blue, conservative/liberal etc...). Fear and laziness make it tempting to do this but we must not fall victim.
  10. #10  
    Not red, not blue, I view myself as green.

    I was pissed about the memory, and palm has made a effort to address it. (that gives me a little of the red spectrum - yellow)

    If it isnt addressed in what I feel is a timely manor, I will lose the redish tint and turn all blue again.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai Lama
    Isn’t it sad that someone has to make this observation? Unfortunately, it does appear to be the case. The “Red” camp refuses to accept that the 650 has serious shortcomings, and on occasion appears to be little more than apologists for PalmOne; I shall now coin the term Palmpologist for them. The “Blue” camp seems to loudly proclaim the shortcomings of the 650; others have termed them (us) whiners. So, we have the “Red Palmpologists” and the “Blue Whiners”.

    Here are the problems that have been documented with the 650:

    1. The memory issue.
    2. Poor sound on the receiving end.
    3. Difficult software transition from 600 to 650
    4. Literally dozens of other glitches and malfunctions as seen on this board.


    A stereotypical “Red Palmpologist” might respond in this manner to each problem:

    yada, yada, yada
    ….
    Gosh that was a long post rehashing all the same "stuff" thats on 2000 other posts. What was your point again? Some people like it, some don't, some want to return it, some don't... We know all this. Everyone is different.

    Can we stop posting the same stories over and over?

    Now I'm whining...
    ELR
    >> Drop by! <<

    Avatar courtesy of ButtUglyJeff!
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by jasondeno
    There needs to be another party for us 650 pragmatists.
    Hmmm... red and blue make "Purple Pragmatists"!
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
    .....God bless America, my home sweet home...
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by Otter Emperor
    Gosh that was a long post rehashing all the same "stuff" thats on 2000 other posts. What was your point again? Some people like it, some don't, some want to return it, some don't... We know all this. Everyone is different.

    Can we stop posting the same stories over and over?

    Now I'm whining...
    Now can we stop posting the same stories about the same stories about people posting the same thing..... oh, yeah
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai Lama
    I think my time on this side of the board is done.
    Please don't go. I beg you. Please!
  15. #15  
    Personally I think everyone should discount all that Dalai says because he "only" has 321 posts.
    Nobody Died when Clinton Lied!!
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by JustMike
    Personally I think everyone should discount all that Dalai says because he "only" has 321 posts.
    the 'number of posts' argument really is just about the stupidest one that comes up here from time to time. every single TC member started with exactly one post. dalai lama has 321 posts, and has been here since sep 2003. i have 290 posts, and i've barely been here a month.

    all it means is that i'm a wordy s. o. b., it doesn't mean i have any more credibility than dalai. in fact, i have less, as my sum total experience in the world treo is two weeks with a T600, and two and a half weeks with a T650. my total experience with treos is a tiny fraction of his and a great many other TC contributors.

    it's all just words.

    and it's just a phone.
    Paul Theodoropoulos
    <a href=http://www.anastrophe.com>www.anastrophe.com</a>
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai Lama
    I think my time on this side of the board is done.
    Nice knowin' ya! Though of course we all know the above quote just isn't true. You enjoy beating your complaints to death, and if you felt the need to argue the sky was blue, I'm certain you have the skill to make everyone wish to god it just wasn't true.

    By the way, it's interesting that you use the term "apologist" to refer to anyone who disagrees with you. I tangled once with a guy who used similar language as you, in a sprintpcs forum:

    http://tinyurl.com/5pzn7
    http://tinyurl.com/5n9fq

    The similarities in tactics are actually quite astounding.
    Last edited by scaredpoet; 12/04/2004 at 09:55 PM.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by anastrophe
    the 'number of posts' argument really is just about the stupidest one that comes up here from time to time. every single TC member started with exactly one post. dalai lama has 321 posts, and has been here since sep 2003. i have 290 posts, and i've barely been here a month.

    all it means is that i'm a wordy s. o. b., it doesn't mean i have any more credibility than dalai. in fact, i have less, as my sum total experience in the world treo is two weeks with a T600, and two and a half weeks with a T650. my total experience with treos is a tiny fraction of his and a great many other TC contributors.

    it's all just words.

    and it's just a phone.
    It was a joke Paul
    Nobody Died when Clinton Lied!!
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by JustMike
    It was a joke Paul
    i know. it was a meta-comment, Mike.
    Paul Theodoropoulos
    <a href=http://www.anastrophe.com>www.anastrophe.com</a>
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by anastrophe
    i know. it was a meta-comment, Mike.
    Unfamiliar with that one.
    Nobody Died when Clinton Lied!!
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