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  1.    #1  
    Treo 650 Has Memory Issue
    December 2, 2004


    Q: I know you recommended the new Treo 650 smart phone. But I am reading on the Internet that it has much less memory than the older Treo 600. Is this true?

    A: Yes and no. The new Treo 650 has the same 32 megabytes of internal memory as its predecessor, the Treo 600. And about the same portion of that memory, roughly 23 megabytes, is available to users to store programs and data, like contacts, calendar entries and e-mail. However, its manufacturer, palmOne, changed the way the new Treo manages that memory. And the result, for some users, is that the same set of programs and data that fit into memory on the older model no longer fit on the 650.
    [snip kr]
    Last edited by KRamsauer; 12/02/2004 at 07:05 AM.
    Off to iPhone land...
  2. dpuza's Avatar
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    #2  
    Offering a 128MB SD card is not a solution to the problem. I already own a 1GB card. You can't do all the same things from a card that you can from memory. This is comparing apples and oranges. If there's not enough room for your core components and cache data on the ROM, you're screwed with or without an external card. How is speed affected when running from a card vs. from the ROM? Compatibility? :-/

    I agree with Walt's "should"'s and think P1's "most users won't be severely affected" excuse is totally lame.
  3. #3  
    This is bad press of the worst kind for P1, esp. since Moss is a big booster.

    However he got it wrong....file system change has nothing to do with battery protection of memory.

    Repeat after me...button battery....button battery...
  4. alee's Avatar
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    #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    This is bad press of the worst kind for P1, esp. since Moss is a big booster.
    Man, I want to read the same article you're reading because I got a totally different impression.

    What I read is Mossberg is saying he has had no issues with being short on memory, and he believes that PalmOne is probably right that the average user won't be affected. Furthermore, he gives his own personal example of how the memory played out on his unit.

    He only recommends power-users hold off, and mentions that PalmOne could have handled it better. I've seen Mossberg tear apart a product -- and this sure isn't it.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    This is bad press of the worst kind for P1
    I tend to disagree with you on this point. You seem to treat this as Mossberg letting the cat of the bag when it comes the memory issue, but Mossberg actually ends up explaining that the memory issue isn't a big issue and shouldn't stop most people from purchasing a 650. The fact that he's addressing it as reader question indicates that the cat was already out of the bag. I think the net effect for P1 and 650 sales will be positive.

    Had he not written this people may have shy'd away based on what they'd heard, whereas now they're more likely to be reassured by this trusted source telling them that 650 is a perfectly useful product.

    Bad press would have been him ranting about how he couldn't fit all his contacts and was forced to switch the blackberry 7100r or something.
    Oh, so they have internet on computers now!
    --Treo 650 unlocked/unbranded with Rogers
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    This is bad press of the worst kind for P1, esp. since Moss is a big booster.
    Seems to me that Mossberg sugar-coated this pretty well for palmOne. It reads like palmOne wrote it for him.

    The removable battery is definitely related to the non-volatile memory. It was their chosen solution to the loss of device power when the battery is removed. Sure, a secondary battery is an alternative solution (and one they use in other palmOne devices), but NV memory is generally considered a more reliable approach (more likely that a battery will run down or fail than for NV memory to fail).
    Last edited by jimf; 12/01/2004 at 10:59 PM.
  7. #7  
    "On my new Treo 650, which I bought last week..."

    This is the most important part of his reply, as far as I am concerned. He actually spent his own money and bought a Treo 650 for himself. This is the best endorsement you can get from a reviewer.
    Last edited by Rome; 12/01/2004 at 11:13 PM.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    "On my new Treo 650, which I bought last week..."

    This is the most important part of the his reply, as far as I am concerned. He actually spent his own money and bought a Treo 650 for himself. This is the best endorsement you can get from a reviewer.

    I would have to agree. He did his review last month and still purchased one for himself last week. That tells me that even with its known shortcomings, Mossberg felt that the 650 was worth his money. He specifically states that he bought it, so I'm assuming PalmOne didn't comp him one.
    Never argue with an *****; people watching may not be able to tell the difference. - Author unknown
  9. #9  
    bad press in the WSJ - bad bad bad for P1 - hope it gets their asses movin.

    or was it all intentionally to fascinate rather sooner than later with a follow up model? and "force" 650 owners for an upgrade to wifi, more memory and other goodies?

    cant imagine they intentionally think that short sighted with that memory.
  10. #10  
    I think P1 would agree with Mossberg, the core memory should have been doubled.

    Also, there's no reasonable arguement for P1 not informing users ahead of time about the fat memory issue except for the fact that they horribly under estimated their Treo market.

    It's a good thing for P1, that I and a host of other investors I know don't reside on their board. I do know the heat is on at P1 and the statements made by them regrading memory as much for executive self preservation as for 650 users. When the results begin to fall short of forecast, and they will, the memory issue will raise it's ugly head again with vengeance.

    As I see it, P1 execs have about 90 days to fix the memory issue to avoid any club hemorrhageing.
    Last edited by JTREOB; 12/01/2004 at 11:59 PM.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    ...
    However he got it wrong....file system change has nothing to do with battery protection of memory.

    Repeat after me...button battery....button battery...
    Are you saying that the file system change isn't related to their use of NVRAM or that there are other solutions to battery protection of memory that you prefer?

    If it's the latter, "nothing to do" is a bit too strong. I'd say that even if I didn't think button batteries have other issues - potential form factor growth, the cost to support Uncle Ed calling to deal with it, etc.

    I was in tech support for a programming language compiler Long Ago, and it was difficult enough to explain to programmers that their CMOS batteries needed to be replaced.

    It (FAT) is also one step towards their desired infrastructure for bigger internal memory capacities.

    I think the Mossberg mention is a net negative. Anyone who reads him knows he likes the T600 and the take away is "the 650 is great for power users if they wait a while for the problems to be solved". I think there is a small niche of price insensitve, geek, early adopters who hear of the 650 from him and order, but I think the FUD resonates with a larger demographic.

    Then again, in proofreading this before I hit post I replaced a "their" with a "there" and a "they're" with a "their" so this whole post may all be in excess of my baseline level of cluelessness. Or I have some sort of acoustic coupler kludge in my brain that needs to be cleaned, or even better replaced with SPDIF or something. The whole translation to phonetics / sound circuitry responsible for such errors has no business being in the thought->keyboard path. Hopefully that was fixed in the 1968+ models.

    "If he were dying he wouldn't have bothered to carve 'aaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyrrrrrrrrrggggggggggg' onto the wall!"

    "Maybe he was dictating"

    (MPaTHG)

    Sorry for rambling... sleepy
  12. #12  
    It'll be interesting to see how this plays in The Market - there was a series of strange low-priced trades late last night during AfterHours - wonder if some WSJ "insider" read Mossberg's column and dumped?

    Nah...

    Since I sincerely believe "power users" are THE only users of the entire TREO line - and ESPECIALLY the geeks who make buying recommendations for companies - IMHO this cannot be a plus.

    To say the least.

    (and, I have to admit, I'm surprised that Mossberg actually commented on it! From a METAviewpoint this is more devastating than the actual words he used. It means he noticed "the problem" and thought it significant enough to use up precious column space about it.)
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by SeldomVisitor

    Since I sincerely believe "power users" are THE only users of the entire TREO line - and ESPECIALLY the geeks who make buying recommendations for companies - IMHO this cannot be a plus.
    They are power users... however there are many different levels of power users.

    All the people I know who have Treo 600s (maybe 8 or so) only install 2 or 3 large third-party apps. They would consider themselves power users compared to non-Treo users, but I would not consider them as REAL power users like me who always cram as much as they can into any device.

    If I had 3 terabytes of RAM I could fill it easily

    So I guess in my estimation only 10% of Treo users are heavy power users. The rest are 'LIGHT' power users who typically have 10 to 12 MB free on a 600, so maybe 5 or 5MB free if they upgraded to a 650.
  14. #14  
    I find his statement "I bought it last week" strange. It reminds me of Norm on "This Old House" always saying "MY" tool as he uses all the fancy and expensive equipment. I suspect both are comp'd.
    FastFrank
  15. #15  
    Two points.
    1. now that the memory issue is known, few enterprise buys will take place until its fixed.
    2. Since each user is different, there is no way to know if the memory issue will affect ones self. Most who have kept informed will hold off as well.

    It is my belief that a rom flash will not solve the issue and P1 will simply increase the memory to at least 128.
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by SeldomVisitor
    It'll be interesting to see how this plays in The Market - there was a series of strange low-priced trades late last night during AfterHours - wonder if some WSJ "insider" read Mossberg's column and dumped?
    If this is market moving news, people need to pay for attention to TC. They can make a killing. :-)
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    "On my new Treo 650, which I bought last week..."

    This is the most important part of his reply, as far as I am concerned. He actually spent his own money and bought a Treo 650 for himself. This is the best endorsement you can get from a reviewer.

    WSJ paid for it...not quite the same.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iggie
    Are you saying that the file system change isn't related to their use of NVRAM or that there are other solutions to battery protection of memory that you prefer?

    If it's the latter, "nothing to do" is a bit too strong. I'd say that even if I didn't think button batteries have other issues - potential form factor growth, the cost to support Uncle Ed calling to deal with it, etc.

    I was in tech support for a programming language compiler Long Ago, and it was difficult enough to explain to programmers that their CMOS batteries needed to be replaced.

    It (FAT) is also one step towards their desired infrastructure for bigger internal memory capacities.

    I think the Mossberg mention is a net negative. Anyone who reads him knows he likes the T600 and the take away is "the 650 is great for power users if they wait a while for the problems to be solved". I think there is a small niche of price insensitve, geek, early adopters who hear of the 650 from him and order, but I think the FUD resonates with a larger demographic.

    Then again, in proofreading this before I hit post I replaced a "their" with a "there" and a "they're" with a "their" so this whole post may all be in excess of my baseline level of cluelessness. Or I have some sort of acoustic coupler kludge in my brain that needs to be cleaned, or even better replaced with SPDIF or something. The whole translation to phonetics / sound circuitry responsible for such errors has no business being in the thought->keyboard path. Hopefully that was fixed in the 1968+ models.

    "If he were dying he wouldn't have bothered to carve 'aaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyrrrrrrrrrggggggggggg' onto the wall!"

    "Maybe he was dictating"

    (MPaTHG)

    Sorry for rambling... sleepy
    All i'm saying is that if they were going to mess with the file system, them should put a lot more (usable) RAM in. This is a "no-brainer" that was missed.

    If they wanted to maintain memory during battery switch, the button battery is perfect. Been there, done that, works fine.

    Morever, why move to "the new generation file system" when the device will never take advantage of it? I have yet to see any argument saying that this was a compelling enough reason, at least for this version of the Treo.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by JTREOB
    Two points.
    1. now that the memory issue is known, few enterprise buys will take place until its fixed.
    2. Since each user is different, there is no way to know if the memory issue will affect ones self. Most who have kept informed will hold off as well.

    It is my belief that a rom flash will not solve the issue and P1 will simply increase the memory to at least 128.
    Bingo..
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    WSJ paid for it...not quite the same.
    How do you know? I would think they'd pay for the review unit, but there's no certainty that they paid for it.

    I think the editor of Gizmodo is probably one of the better reviewers. It's probably the best and most popular of all the gadget blogs. We are talking about someone who reports on all sorts of gadgets all over the place and he's overly critical about every single one of them.

    When it comes to the Treo, though, he says:

    "Of course, in my own case, they'll have to pry my Treo from my cold, dead hands."

    http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/smart...now-026326.php
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