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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by alee
    While I agree that there should have been more memory, I see no foul in what he said.

    The average WSJ reader also isn't dissecting Mossberg's letter like we are here on TC. I would summarize the overall impression it delivered as well-balanced.

    1. Mossberg says yes the memory is different. and you end up with effectively less space but you gain memory that doesn't get lost
    2. He says he agrees that most people will not have a problem
    3. He gives his own personal profile 1000+contacts/1000+calendar/+3rd party
    4. Says PalmOne could have handled it better
    5. Says PalmOne is planning to fix it

    We could sit around and nit-pick it to death, but I think reading it for the first time, it's certainly not tolling the bell. Mossberg does not candy-coat when he doesn't like something, and I maintain this is not his way of saying it sucks.
    Good points. And let's not forget that he spent his own money and bought one for himself. There are a lot of people out there who will buy simply because that's what Mossberg buys.

    Furhermore a lot of these Treo 650 will be bought by corporations who don't want anything more other than email and PIM function. These are the same companies that would otherwise buy a Blackberry.

    Time will tell.
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    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by GoodNamesRTaken
    I'm a long time PALM and Handspring user, and I *cannot* upgrade to the Treo 650 without deleting quite a bit of data and apps that need to run in onboard memory.

    The decision was more or less made for me, and that really shouldn't be the case. No?
    You are correct. But if PalmOne alienates you and me as a customer but takes 50% marketshare from the RIM/Blackberry crowd, they have still succeeded, whether we like it or not.
  3. #63  
    More memory will not fix the delays, crashes, resets, phone-homes, etc.

    This pig can't fly.
  4. #64  
    I think voting with his wallet is an important point that really should not be overlooked. And as far as P1 comps or WSJ expense accounts, I personally don't know the facts of WM's situation (or his tax return deductions), but it would be very surprising if he accepted such gifts given his prominence as a reviewer. NYT's David Pogue made a big deal about this very issue in his blog column recently. He doesn't accept gift products and other perks to avoid actual or perceived conflicts of interest and buys all his loot himself.
  5. #65  
    I don't consider myself a "power user" however I usually have 1-2 Meg free on my 600 (depending on how often I clean my email inbox) and my 256Meg card is 90-95% full.
    I was an early adaptor for the 300 and 600 but will wait until the memory problem is fixed before I upgrade to the 650. Not all programs can be run from an SD card and I'm not going to pay to "upgrade" and either carry around another card or buy a 500 Meg or 1 Gig card just to do the things I can do now on my 600. The screen, camera, bluetooth etc are nice but not enough to offset the memory problem.
  6. #66  
    What Mossberg and others keep missing, IMO, is that, in the long run, it will NOT be the power users that willl be hurt most by the memory problem, but the average guy.

    The power users know how to use ZLauncher and play with the SD cards and are able to swap apps back and forth and will, otherwise, find ways around the problem.

    The average guy has no inclination or desire to go throough all that even IF they understand how to do it. Sure, at first they will be ok (IF they dont have TOO many contacts) But just wait until they add a cool mapping program, or vioce dial or a South Beach Diet database. Then they will start having problems and they won't be able to work around it like the TC folks will and wouldnt want to even if they could..
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by alee
    You are correct. But if PalmOne alienates you and me as a customer but takes 50% marketshare from the RIM/Blackberry crowd, they have still succeeded, whether we like it or not.
    P1 is NOT going to take 50% marketshare from the RIM/Blackberry crowd. NOT with this device (and the reason has nothing to do with the memory.) Blackberry's sell because they are super-reliable, they are very simple, they have a very clear sense of what their purpose is and they do that very well.

    If I were running P1 and I wanted to get a foothold into the Enterprise market I would focus on sales people and push advanced CRM managment, inventory checking, and order processing applications that sales people on the road need but can't get from a Blackberry. ($600 or even $700 doesn't matter if it's cheaper than a $2000 laptop that my sales team doesn't need anymore because of these applications.) I would also focus on making sure my device is VERY reliable (including drop-proof) because Enterprise IT managers don't want constant hassles rebooting devices for complaining sales reps who need them to make sales. If you can successfully establish a foothold in this market and you have a user-base of professionals who use your device trouble free you now have a compelling agruement to get other Enterprise customers to consider switching from their super-reliable, easy to use Blackberrys.

    The 650 is fine for me because I don't mind tinkering, I can reset, reinstall, restore and trouble-shoot all by myself (with extra help from friends here) AND because if I'm out and I can't make a call or retreive email it doesn't cost me money, but in the professional market people don't have the time, inclination or luxury of being able to "play" with their devices and a missed call can mean lost revenue. Good luck prying Blackberry users away from their Blackberry's with anything even slightly less reliable and more complicated.
    Oh, so they have internet on computers now!
    --Treo 650 unlocked/unbranded with Rogers
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by alee
    You are correct. But if PalmOne alienates you and me as a customer but takes 50% marketshare from the RIM/Blackberry crowd, they have still succeeded, whether we like it or not.
    Reasonabiltiy needs to pervade here. You don't capture enterprise or few other users for that matter when you have a perceived problem. Problems don't increase ones chances of success. Fact is there's a memory issue for which P1 even admits. This device is going no where without a proper fix. That I am sure.
    Last edited by JTREOB; 12/02/2004 at 09:40 PM.
  9. alee's Avatar
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    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by Boobookins
    P1 is NOT going to take 50% marketshare from the RIM/Blackberry crowd. NOT with this device (and the reason has nothing to do with the memory.) Blackberry's sell because they are super-reliable, they are very simple, they have a very clear sense of what their purpose is and they do that very well.
    Of course that was an exaggeration on my part... nobody wakes up and takes 50% of the market by storm. However, what I'm trying to reason out here is that just because it doesn't suit *our* needs, doesn't mean that it doesn't suit the needs of the larger consumer-base. If PalmOne did take 50% away from RIM by screwing all the power users they'd still have a successful device, despite all the power users left wanting more.

    In short, what if this was never meant to answer the call of the power user? Just because it's the flagship model within a series now doesn't mean it was meant for those craving the larger storage needs.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyril
    They are power users... however there are many different levels of power users.

    All the people I know who have Treo 600s (maybe 8 or so) only install 2 or 3 large third-party apps. They would consider themselves power users compared to non-Treo users, but I would not consider them as REAL power users like me who always cram as much as they can into any device.

    If I had 3 terabytes of RAM I could fill it easily

    So I guess in my estimation only 10% of Treo users are heavy power users. The rest are 'LIGHT' power users who typically have 10 to 12 MB free on a 600, so maybe 5 or 5MB free if they upgraded to a 650.
    Agreed. I really do not think the memory issue will effect most Treo users - at least at first. The problem is that everyone is used to having 100GB+ hard drives in their computers and Tivos, 40GB ipods, etc. Memory, what used to be a precious commodity to be valued like gold, has become cheap and plentiful. Any potential need to manage it will be seen as a negative.

    Additionally, carrier salespeople may become hesitant to recommend a Treo over another smartphone (assuming their commission is not adversely effected) due to the potential of customer dissatisfaction and subsequent returns.

    The real shame here is that P1 could provide a simply awesome solution - If they can enable any app to be run from SD and integrate this in with the OS well enough, they can state that their goal was to keep the price low for the casual user while enabling the utmost flexibility and expandability with SD. Unfortunately, there will be far fewer of us saying "wow, this is just a fantastic response by P1 - see, you just don't get this customer service from MSFT!". The damage will have been done and support will fall off for what seems to me to be a great device thus far.
    HP 95-LX > Pilot 5000 > Cassiopeia 105 > Cassiopeia 115 > Handspring Visor > Palm M505 > Toshiba e740 > Palm Tungsten C > Palm Tungsten T3 > Dell Axim X30 > Treo 650
  11. #71  
    In short, what if this was never meant to answer the call of the power user? Just because it's the flagship model within a series now doesn't mean it was meant for those craving the larger storage needs.[/QUOTE]

    This whole discussion borders on foolishness.

    The device runs $600. Does that sound like a price range for the casual user?

    For $600 the owner should not have to entertain the thought of managing contact or application volumn. When a 600 user can not transfer their data in full to a newly improved 650 model due to storage limitations, there's a serious issue at play.
  12. #72  
    >"This whole discussion borders on foolishness.

    The device runs $600. Does that sound like a price range for the casual user?

    For $600 the owner should not have to entertain the thought of managing contact or application volumn. When a 600 user can not transfer their data in full to a newly improved 650 model due to storage limitations, there's a serious issue at play."


    A beautiful post that really sums it all up!
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by DaleReeck
    Of course, the third option that Mossberg says what he means and means what he says is impossible, right? The only possibilities are that it has to be a conspiracy or stupidity if he doesn't agree with your view of the 650, right? Well, the memory problem doesn't affect me to any great degree, so I guess "some users" is accurate after all.

    And don't kid yourselves that everyone would think that the Treo 650 would be "the smartphone to beat" if it didn't have the memory issue. The whiners would simply laser in on another problem and rage about that one. No one is happy around here unless they are b1tching about something.

    I have yet to see any major new phone or device released in the last three years that wasn't roasted in the forums. TC, Phonescoop, PDAPhoneHome, Howard's Phone forum, they are all littered with posts on how every new phone is crap. I am beginning to think it's more of a problem with the users and not the devices.

    Glad that you're happy with the unit. You're in the minority though. I guess you're one of those few "non-power users" that Mossberg's referring to if you're satisfied with the unit. Anyone who uses the device regularly and maximizes it's capabilities will soon reach the outer limits due to the memory allocation problem.
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    #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by JTREOB
    The device runs $600. Does that sound like a price range for the casual user?
    It's too expensive for a phone; however, it's only a bit more than a premium PDA. I say it falls into the disposable consumer device, priced for the holiday and special holiday gift.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by alee
    It's too expensive for a phone; however, it's only a bit more than a premium PDA. I say it falls into the disposable consumer device, priced for the holiday and special holiday gift.
    The problem I have with that assessment is the fact that it's a phone. It's becoming more and more common to use your cell phone as your primary phone. This being the case, it has to then first function as a phone, and be as reliable and easy to use as a "dumb" cell. To make it worse, in order for this device to go to market, it has to be carried by a cell provider. This means it gets marketted as a "cell phone", regardless of its other capabilities.

    So while it's only a little more than a premium PDA, I think those not in the know would see it as a seriously expensive phone.

    c
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by alee
    It's too expensive for a phone; however, it's only a bit more than a premium PDA. I say it falls into the disposable consumer device, priced for the holiday and special holiday gift.

    Disposable! That would be the most correct you've been all day.
  17. #77  
    Glad that you're happy with the unit. You're in the minority though. I guess you're one of those few "non-power users" that Mossberg's referring to if you're satisfied with the unit. Anyone who uses the device regularly and maximizes it's capabilities will soon reach the outer limits due to the memory allocation problem.
    And yet every poll on TC seems to contradict this. Most folks seem happy with theirs. Personally, I'm what would be considered a "power-user", yet I have over 10Mb free (thanks to ZLauncher). It seems that folks who are unhappy want to convince themselves that they're the majority, and try to bully everyone else into silence.

    Okay, you can now post the inevitable "shut up...you're a Palm tool...you're obviously not as much a power user as me...." message.
  18. #78  
    Just to set the record straight: I paid for my Treo 650, and for the Treo 600 before it, with my own money. And I paid full price. It is unethical for journalists and reviewers to take free products, or even discounts, or to keep for themselves items lent for review. I never do this. If I want a product, I first return the review unit, then buy one for myself at normal retail prices. I do have an expense account, of course, but when it comes to very personal products, like the Treo or iPod, I buy them with my own money so they are my own property and not the Journal's.


    -- Walt Mossberg
    Wall Street Journal
  19. #79  
    The negative perception by others of any lacking ethical practices perhaps resulted from what some see as a serious issue being inadequaetly explained away by P1 and then repeated in the WM column without serious enough critique.

    There are many a 600 and 650 users livid over the memory issue.
    Last edited by JTREOB; 12/02/2004 at 11:39 PM.
  20. #80  
    Mr. Mossberg, you have presumably read this entire thread concerning your article. You can see that many of us are interpreting it in widely varying ways. Some think you are being quite positive, saying that very few will be affected, and some think you are pointing out a serious flaw and that you are disappointed. Tell us, please, how bad a mistake do you feel PalmOne made with this memory issue? Is it just a minor little problem, or a "disaster" or somewhere in between?
    http://www.doctordalai.com
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