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  1. #781  
    Quote Originally Posted by euroclie
    Thanks for your help!

    I suspect that shadowsmite knew that already, and that he's only trying to discover which particular API function this systrap call is pointing to (for instance, on the Treo 600, the $A349 sysTrap is for SysTrapOEMDispatch, which lets you in turn call API functions like HsChrCodeToKeyCode (0x9F) and various manufacturer specific API functions.

    I couldn't find out yet what $a81e was, though...
    Heh, yep, still have no clue what the a81e trap is... I think there is a range in the high a???'s that are for external hardware... Anyway, I've been taking a break from this, I have to fix my car since someone rear ended me and gave me false information... So now I am doing the work myself... Work is never over for a do-it-yourselfer...

    Euroclie, I wanted to add, awesome job on that website... That might just help us out... I'll have to take a look and let you know if anything needs to be updated...
    Last edited by shadowmite; 12/10/2004 at 07:10 PM.
  2. #782  
    I haven't read this thread till now. I'm also in for sending donation (10$)
    Is there any hope left ?
  3. #783  
    This is the first thread I have read completely, that is this long. So, you can see I am interested. But because of my background in RF engineering (ole time broadcast engineer type) I have a few comments and questions.

    My first comment is WiFi does, in fact, operate in the same frequency band as Bluetooth. (The 2.4 ghz band) So, at the very minimum I would suspect one could not operate both WiFi and Bluetooth at the same time. Second, if you did, I would expect alot of interference.

    This was born out recently when I tried to use a Motorola Bluetooth earpiece with my Treo 650. At first, I couldn't figure out why there was so much crackling in the received audio. Also, the person I was talking to also mentioned it. I decided to walk into another part of the house. The crackling interference went away. The Treo 650 was in my shirt pocket, by the way as I was walking around.

    I then walked up to the two WiFi connected computers in my house and discovered that the conversation almost was disconnected at this proximity because of the extreme interference. I should mention, in a different thread I had shared this discovery, I was told another user had not had the same experience. Considering that WiFi has multiple channels (frequencies) to operate in, there also may be different possible interference combinations.

    I share this story because it may become quite important to those working with this, once the software issues are worked out. And also to put a little perspective why PalmOne might not have included WiFi in the Treo 650.

    Does anyone know of any other phone which has both Bluetooth and WiFi built into the same unit? Model numbers please.

    I too would love to see a WiFi solution. But I wanted to also share the realities that I discovered. When you turn off Bluetooth in the Treo 650, does it actually turn off the whole Bluetooth radio? Or, like other Palm Pilots, when you turn off the unit, you are just turning off the light.

    A suggestion might be when a user turns on WiFi (or inserts a Wifi Card) software would automagically turn off Bluetooth. (and visa versa) This might take care of the potential interference problem while also conserving battery power.

    Thanks for viewing.
    Rees
  4. #784  
    Quote Originally Posted by ReesR
    Does anyone know of any other phone which has both Bluetooth and WiFi built into the same unit? Model numbers please.
    The i-mate PDA2K has both wifi and bluetooth built in. So does the Nokia 9500 communicator. And (while not a phone) my iPaq has both wifi and bluetooth. At home my 2.4ghz cordless phones is operating on the same band as my wifi router and they get along. I think this might be a matter of different devices being on different channels.
    Oh, so they have internet on computers now!
    --Treo 650 unlocked/unbranded with Rogers
  5. #785  
    Bluetooth and WiFi together is almost commonplace in laptops. We have two that have them. We do, however get interference between out 2.4ghz cordless phone and the WiFi routers.
  6. #786  
    Awesome, thank guys. I spent 2 hours reading the whole thread, simply AMAZING. You deserve all my respect, count on me for the $$$. Come on, you can do it...
  7. Treo Dude's Avatar
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    #787  
    I'll gladly toss in $10.
  8. #788  
    Quote Originally Posted by kschoenberg
    Bluetooth and WiFi together is almost commonplace in laptops. We have two that have them.
    Same here. My Powerbook and Dell 600M both came with Wifi and Bluetooth built in (and I regularly use a bluetooth mouse while online wirelessly).
  9. #789  
    Thanks for the feedback guys. Learn something everyday here.
    Rees
  10. wahili's Avatar
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    #790  
    ok i got $10 on it btw~!
  11. #791  
    Quote Originally Posted by ReesR
    Thanks for the feedback guys. Learn something everyday here.

    Flip on PBS you quack. You gonna tell us what a "transistor" is used for?
  12. #792  
    Quote Originally Posted by LimeyTreoUser
    Flip on PBS you quack.
    What does this have to do with anything being discussed in this thread?

    If it's some sort of personal attack, let me remind you that we don't tolerate that here!
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
    .....God bless America, my home sweet home...
  13. #793  
    Quote Originally Posted by ReesR
    And also to put a little perspective why PalmOne might not have included WiFi in the Treo 650.
    Seems more likely that Palm wouldn't want to cut into the business of the mobile phone companies that provide internet access. If you have wifi, this reduces the need to spend $15/month or more on having a cellular internet connection. Hence it's probably more about business relationships than about customer relationships.
  14. wahili's Avatar
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    #794  
    the deal with wi fi and bluetooth is this.
    In the 2.4 GHZ range Bluetooth frequency hopping spread spectrum hops between 79 different 1 mhz wide channels. wi-fi uses direct sequence spread spectrum which stays fixed in a 22mhz wide channel which is also in the same spectrum subset.

    now within this 83mhz range there is room for 11 overlapping channels.

    when bluetooth and wifi operate in the same area, the single 22mhz wifi channel basically occuppoies the same frequency space as 22 of the 79 bluetooth channels.

    bottom line, when a bluetooth transmission occurs on a frequency that overlaps in the frequency space of the wifi transmission, boom... you have a problem.

    In reality, no company has come up with an absolute fix for it. even in existing handhelds that pack both in and where bluetooth auto switches channels depending on wifi that is trading packets, interference can still occur in the form of static in bluetooth or degradation of wifi.

    ergo visavis conordantly its not a problem that cannot be fixed if the hardware makers work together on the devices in question which unfortunately doesnt seem to happen always. i came to learn this crap because of the horror of setting up a huge wireless network for an office which had all types of intererence problems. first with 2.4 ghz phones which they had to replace with 5.8ghz..

    one of their big mistakes was having eating areas near their wireless access points where their microwaves were nuking signals so its not just local interference u have to keep in mind. i didnt not know the microwaves were on the other side of the wall for quite a while while i was troubleshooting all manner of diff configs when i finally came to find out there were microwaves people were using all day on the other side of wall. hope this helps someone somewhere.

    however i totally agree and have always said sprint does not want wifi put in their phones due to their unlimited data usage which is now an advantage for them which would seem less attractive to customers if wifi was put in and also the significant upcoming danger of this leading to voip apps being developed which can tap into wifi and eventually wimax which could very well cripple the mobile telcos.
    Last edited by wahili; 12/12/2004 at 07:17 PM.
  15. #795  
    just a thought, but everyone is saying that it is Sprint that killed off the wi-fi. Could it be that palm one did not want to make the Treo as powerful a pda as the Tungsten. Otherwise they might kill off the pda (Tungsten) side of their business and end up having all their eggs in the treo basket.
  16. #796  
    Wahili....dead on with the BT and Wi-Fi info.

    Disagree with the Sprint canning wi-fi in favor of it's data plan. The two don't even compare, and they could be complementary. Evenif the Treo had wi-fi, I would keep my data, as I am not always on a wi-fi network.

    Treobloke had it right...more likely, P1 is trying to protect the Tungsten line as the "premier" line.

    As I advocated before, they should dump the Tungsten line and just have Zire's and Treo's
  17. #797  
    Exactly. If they had taken their design team off the latest Tungsten model and employed their skills onto the 650 Treo, we would have a better model today. Palm One ought to realise where their future sales will be, and the integrated market is where their main money earning potential is. Not the shrinking PDA market....
  18. #798  
    I agree, I beleive now that the lack of BT and wi-fi is not as much a physical problem or software driver problem as it is Palmone politics. They just don't want every unit to do everything. They are trying to limit technology for future releases. San Disk has an unrealeased wi-fi driver that works with the Tungsten E, it was posted earlier in this thread. I would guess that more than the power issue, it was the politics of the T5 being released that kept the driver from being released for the Tungsten E. The two models have a huge price gap. If the Tungsten E is wi-fi compatible as well as the T5 there is not really alot of difference besides an increased internal RAM(and bluetooth). Palmone would rather sell a $399 Tungsten T5 than a $199 Tungsten E. The same is likely true of the lack of wi-fi on the Treo 650, just saving something for the 700. I have heard on this forum that palmone is finally working on a bluetooth for the Treo 600. Suposedly they had a working beta version withing three days after they decided to start work on it(check 600 hardware posts).There is no chance we will see this release before Christmas as this would kill the 650 sales. Everone would buy bluetooth cards rather than a new 650. It has everything to do with marketting politics.
    This being said, I would expect there to be many revellations from Palmone come the new year. I would expect bluetooth to appear for the 600 and wi-fi for the 650, and likely a push to have a fast release of a wi-fi capable Treo 700 (including Cobalt) otherwise Palmone may have finally lost the battle to the Pocket PC world. I checked the specs on the SX66, they look pretty darn good compared to the 650.

    Man does Bill Gates have to control everything?
  19. Iceman6's Avatar
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    #799  
    Quote Originally Posted by wahili
    bottom line, when a bluetooth transmission occurs on a frequency that overlaps in the frequency space of the wifi transmission, boom... you have a problem.

    In reality, no company has come up with an absolute fix for it. even in existing handhelds that pack both in and where bluetooth auto switches channels depending on wifi that is trading packets, interference can still occur in the form of static in bluetooth or degradation of wifi.
    Everyone who builds chips for handhelds and laptops is working on this problem. For example, intel:
    http://www.engadget.com/entry/2486262171659240/

    For an earlier example, ti:
    http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,111162,00.asp

    IMO this problem will be solved by the chip makers, not by the PalmOne's of the world.
  20. wahili's Avatar
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    #800  
    no doubt about it that they are on the job to fix the issue. the question is will the people who actually supply the electronics implement the technology when it becomes available.

    the problem is these days, its not like the good old days when it was tech heads for the tech heads. these days people who can do something about it bow out to various companies for one reason another... copyright and dvds and tivo fiasco... sony bowing to their own record company by not allowing their "network walkmans" to play mp3s etc. i found it hilarious that in sony they had departments allocated to both protest file sharing (on behalf of sony records to make their musicians happy) and to protest the RIAA on behalf of their mp3 player customers who were upset with ATRAC.

    its things like this that me wonder if when they DO figure it out, will they put out what we want as consumers.... well maybe maybe not.. time will tell.

    ok but i digress.. i dont wanna change the real purpose of this thread which is a bunch of techheads who ARE for the techheads like shadowmite and the rest!

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