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  1. #621  
    Quote Originally Posted by DaleReeck
    You know, considering the incredible progress that Shadowmite and friends made in less than a week with no source code or a complete understanding of how the WiFi is implemented, it pi$$es me off that P1 itself, with all it's resources and knowledge about it's own product, probably could have had drivers ready in a few days. Instead, P1 makes it sound like it would be such a huge effort for them and that they would be doing us a favor if they decide to do it. That defintely lends credence to the idea that P1 (or the carriers) do not want us to have WiFi drivers for the 650.

    At the roadshow senior P1 staff told me that it would take only a short time to write drivers enabling the 650 to use their wifi card.

    The explanation that they gave for (foolishly) not providing the 650 with that wifi capability was that it was difficult to write the software to integrate the wifi into the 650's radio spectrum.

    This was particularly the case because the POS that the 650 uses does not have the requisite wifi plumbing like does the PPC.

    They are also worried about doing anything that affects the quality/performance of their cell radio which would apparently require the carriers and the fcc to sign off on.

    (RE: the 650's SD slot -- they were clear that the issue of the underpowered 600 sdio slot had been fixed )

    The thread where this was discussed is:
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...ad.php?t=63093


    after the DC show I had a intensive talk with Greg Shirai about the 650's wifi lapse -- and about when they would be making drivers for their own wifi card.

    He explained that if it was just a simple matter of writing a 650 driver they would already have done it. Creating the software for juggling the "radios" is complex, and its still to be written for the 650.

    I pointed out that PPC devices have already mastered this issue. In response he inferred that the underlying OS plumbing of PPCs provides support for wifi -- making their integration much simpler.

    The POS -- especially the version they are now using -- does not have this capability, which forces P1 to do much more to successfully write the software etc. along with the drivers.

    Additionally, another important limitation on P1 putting out drivers for their card soon is that they need to get the carriers (& maybe FCC too??) to sign off on changes that they make that affect their system's "radio's"(i.e. range, quality, etc.)

    Therefore its much more likely that a 3rd party manufacturer will come to produce a wifi card before P1. I asked if they were cooperating with companies like Sandisk who've complained about the difficulty of working with P1 & PSRC in the past.

    He said he knew of a company -- not Sandisk -- that was working hard on making a 650 compatible wifi card, that he hoped would be out in the beginning of the year.

    I mentioned how important wifi was to a significant portion of his potential customers -- how many are already migrating to the PDA2K/6601 for example. I further said to him that there's a certain stickiness when people go to another operating platform that makes it highly likely that they will never return. He said he understood that -- and agreed that wifi was important.

    My gut sense though was that his heart was not committed to this as I would have hoped. I spoke to most of the senior P1 staffers at the show and in general they were not convinced that wifi was a killer app. They would mostly want to know what you would use wifi for if it was available. They largely believe that the majority of their potential custoers are not going to decide on the 650 on the basis of wifi. They think that wifi is mostly a geek thing. (this was especially the view of the tall thin guy -- a very nice man -- I just think he's wrong).

    (BTW, because increasingly most PPC devices have wifi onboard, 3rd party manufactures have an added incentive to get their cards to work on the 650-- so this hope is perhaps realistic.)
  2. #622  
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkEagle
    Done.

    I also deleted the 2 previous inflammatory posts.

    As for TC's part in this, we'll need to hear from marcus who made the original offer.
    Thank you Mark!
    ~ ScandaLous ~
  3. #623  
    Ok, can I get some people to try this and let me know how it goes? Please don't give up, play with it and let me know problems and things you find...

    Also, remember when loading if by hotsync, delete your ENTIRE backup folder BEFORE syncing this... Thus these are the only files added.
    Attached Files Attached Files
  4.    #624  
    I think we need to realize a couple of things with regard to wifi and posts recently that aren't about how to make the drivers work.

    1. Radios shouldn't interfere. If you shut off the phone it should be like any other Palm.
    2. There's no reason why a wifi card should need FCC or carrier approval. It doesn't for PPC devices.
    3. I don't think we can evaluate the SDIO slot unless we have an electrical engineer. We won't find useful information just searching on the web, IMO.

    There are others, but they are out of the scope of this thread. This is all covered in other threads. We can't make Palm come out with drivers, so it's to the point that we are going to have to try it ourselves.
  5. #625  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    s.
    3. I don't think we can evaluate the SDIO slot unless we have an electrical engineer. We won't find useful information just searching on the web, IMO.

    There are others, but they are out of the scope of this thread. This is all covered in other threads. We can't make Palm come out with drivers, so it's to the point that we are going to have to try it ourselves.
    With this being said, do we have any electrical engineers in the house?
    ~ ScandaLous ~
  6. #626  
    Quote Originally Posted by scandalex
    With this being said, do we have any electrical engineers in the house?
    Yes, and I am not about to research for hours with test equipment to find the threshold of power the sdio port can output. The honest truth is we have already powered up the wifi card in both a 600 and 650 now (I have at least) and they do not appear to have problems supplying the power. Now, keep in mind we have not yet established true two way communications, but if there where going to be a problem the wifi gateways would not have registered the mac address nor assigned a ip address. The power issue is minimal if existant.
  7. #627  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmite
    Yes, and I am not about to research for hours with test equipment to find the threshold of power the sdio port can output.
    I'm also in theory an electrical engineer, but I'm willing to take the lack of fried 650s as pretty good evidence for the moment. Shadowmite: seeing a soft reset as soon as I try to hit the wifi setup applet, or the wi-fi prefs. This is installing the beta1.zip files right after a hard reset

    Adam
  8. #628  
    Try a reset then run them again... This version should be quite stable I think...
  9. #629  
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamP
    I'm also in theory an electrical engineer, but I'm willing to take the lack of fried 650s as pretty good evidence for the moment. Shadowmite: seeing a soft reset as soon as I try to hit the wifi setup applet, or the wi-fi prefs. This is installing the beta1.zip files right after a hard reset
    I take that back, getting the light to blink but am not seeing any of wireless networks, working on fixing that.

    Adam
  10. #630  
    Shadowmite, I just installed the beta1 files after a hard reset. I cant get it to see my network this time. The card light blinks and thats all. I tried it under preferences and under the WiFi setup and got the same results. The last set of files (the ones that ls3mach sent me) seemed to work better, It would at least see my network ( I changed my ssid a few times just to make sure, and each time it picked up the change automatically and showed up on my active mac table) and give me an IP address. With these files, I cant even get it to register on my active mac table.

    BTW I get no resets with these files
  11. #631  
    Exactly, these drivers shouldn't reset much... To find your network try the prefs wifi screen. Turn it on and let it search there. I found that it'll usally connect from there. This is still not correct, it's a beta1 file! But it should be quite stable now I think...
  12. #632  
    You rock Shadow, Thanks for the hard work!

    I think WiFi is quite a legit need for people like me. I just moved to a place on the Ocean in Malibu. Sprint it totally unreliable here so my 650's dead in the water when I'm home (pun intended). WiFi would give me reception at home where as Sprint doesn't. I've just ordered Vonage, but it would be nice to not need them...
  13. #633  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrisonmuscle
    I have been searching many different reviews and forums on the net looking for the difference in specs between the power supply to the 650 and the 600 SDIO slot. I have found little factual information, but the information I have found has said that P1 has not updated the power supply to the SDIO slot on the 650 and has intentionally left the 650 out of the compatibility loop to the P1 wi-fi card. P1 may have done this intentionally from the start, or may have addressed the issue to late in the design process to come back and make power supply changes. Either way people atempting to use the wi-fi cards with the 650 may be risking damaging their Treo. If someone has some factual specs on the difference in the power supplies to the SDIO cards in the 650 and 600 I beleive it would be valuable to post. There is no sense working on something that the hardware will not support. I wish P1 was clearer on whether or not their hardware in the SDIO has been improved or not. We need to find out if the Treo 650 was left out of the compatibility loop because of carrier politics or hardware incompatibility.
    If I rember right, P1 told us at the Long Beach Road show that it should be able to support WiFi when the drivers were done....

    They said that they weren't going to release WiFi until it worked smoothly (ala the Zen of Palm) meaning that it would be transparent to the user when it made transitions between the different radios..
  14. #634  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmite
    Exactly, these drivers shouldn't reset much... To find your network try the prefs wifi screen. Turn it on and let it search there. I found that it'll usally connect from there. This is still not correct, it's a beta1 file! But it should be quite stable now I think...
    OK.. I'm able to see all of the wireless networks I should be able to. I have also been able to see it DHCPing on an ad-hoc network (but not an infrastructure yet). With an ad hoc, I'm able to see arp requests from the treo as well as some tcp connection attempts, but I haven't successfully connected yet.

    Adam
  15. #635  
    Don't want to add clutter to this thread, but this is very exciting and I just wanted to say...WOW...great going you all...I'm very impressed. THANKS for all you all are doing. I feel helpless just watching, but waiting to send some $$$ when told when and where. Its the least I could do and it's not much, but its something as a member of this community. Peace.
    Dana A. Max, Psy.D.
    Licensed Psychologist
    Palm III, Palm IIIc, Palm m515, Treo 650, Centro
  16. mark1107's Avatar
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    #636  
    "Ok, can I get some people to try this and let me know how it goes? Please don't give up, play with it and let me know problems and things you find..."

    Shadowmite, I am sorry from before, but since you asked for beta testers, I wanted to share with you my trials on this Beta1 test. I have a T650 with a P1 Wifi card and I did a hard reset with no backup or archive files and I did a Bluetooth hotsync to load your drivers.

    1. The first time I loaded the Beta file either through preferences or tapping on the Wifi file, it soft resets the device. After that my 650 is fine.

    2. The first turn on of the card causes it to blink. After 2 or 3 times of going through a soft reset, and playing with it, it then stays on.

    3. "I" (other users may not have to), but I had to leave the Bluetooth off. On my T650 = baby, my baby I would try to turn the Bluetooth on while the card was lit, and it would permanently freeze my baby. I would have to do a soft reset and the Bluetooth would work. If I leave Bluetooth on, and then turn the P1 card on, it would soft reset my baby. I did the ##377 in the phone menu, and it said " A reset caused on 12/4/04 at 9:21 PM while runing "Wifi":
    System Mgr. c, Line 6714 syslinker stub (): Failed to load the shared library."

    4. I use the T600 program "always on" and if you do not have it then when your baby turns off, i.e. the screen goes dark, the card cuts off. I then would turn my baby back on, and the card would not turn on. I would go to the preferences screen and go to WiFi, and I could not get the P1 card to turn on. Then I was doing a soft reset, and the card would work. I then learned if your screen goes dark, then you turn it back on, and the card does not work, then you simply pop the card out and then put it back in, and both ways (preferences-Wifi and tap[ing the Wifi setup icon, turn the card back on.

    5. It finds Wifi routers and hubs etc. (Forgive me since I am not that savy about it.)

    6. The P1 card light does not turn off when you click in the Wifi preferences to turn on and off. You need to let the screen go dark by turning your screen off with the power button, and the card turns off.

    My next question I will ask one of the smarter people on this site, but how do I set up my baby when the P1 card sees a network is available to start surfing the web either through blazer or eudora, or the old raggedy T600 version of blazer? I would like to go to Starbucks and try real hard to look cool and surf the web on Wifi.

    IMHO - these are my opinions - I hope it helps, not hurts.

    Mark
  17. ls3mach's Avatar
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    #637  
    Shadowmite, I tested and tested that setup you gave us. I was not experiencing crashes on the setup I was running, and I didnt really get any with your either. I saw no better results though. I can get an IP, but I can get no where with it. I tried to DMZ it, ping it, ping from it, manually configure and even adhoc. I got nothing.

    Lonzo
  18. #638  
    Shadow: Just to confirm, I took the risk and used the P1 card in my Treo 600. It lights up. But I can't see my router
  19. #639  
    Awesome, I'm glad to hear beta1 is working like I believed it to. I still have yet to see any connection last for more than enough time to get the IP assignment. I believe somehow we are hitting the disconnect timeout before we should, or otherwise there is a problem in the connections we are getting. But rest assured, beta1 is now nearly identical to the real T5 drivers as would be found on it after the installer runs completely. Also, the firmware I've still never seen actually upgrade the card. I'm starting to think that firmware is for the driver to reference rather than upload to the card...

    Unforunately, this is now the hardest part. Everything about the driver is now almost perfect (as perfect as we want it) and we are left with two possibilities:

    1) The driver just isn't programmed for how the 650's sdio card slot works. We aren't getting enough power to keep the connection, or there is some minor glitch in the code that I may or may not be able to fix with a patch.

    2) The fake net libraries are still needed in order to obtain a working connection. However we can't install them without upsetting the phones own net libraries. I may or may not be able to find a way around this. In addition the pm net lib has a few bytes different between the phones built in file, and the one in the T5 after this is installed. Will this matter?

    Today I'll be working under those two possible ideas above.

    If anyone else can think of some other ideas please by all means suggest them...
  20. #640  
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmite
    Awesome, I'm glad to hear beta1 is working like I believed it to. I still have yet to see any connection last for more than enough time to get the IP assignment.
    Actually, I have seen it use an assigned IP in network packet dumps. I just haven't gotten it to fully open a TCP session. It is not consistant, but I am able to sometimes get it to DHCP, ARP, and then do a SYN ACK exchange (shown below).

    My treo is 192.168.1.101... Also, the light is staying on through all of this, not going out when it fails. I loose my connection when I actually exit the program (yes I'm using the same connection to attempt a bunch of TCP sessions). This is going through a wireless router in infrastructure mode.

    14:09:18.451574 IP 192.168.1.101.14466 > 192.168.1.120.ssh: S 5881784:5881784(0) win 29808 <mss 1460,nop,nop,sackOK>
    0x0000: 4500 0030 004b 0000 ff06 374f c0a8 0165 E..0.K....7O...e
    0x0010: c0a8 0178 3882 0016 0059 bfb8 0000 0000 ...x8....Y......
    0x0020: 7002 7470 91d7 0000 0204 05b4 0101 0402 p.tp............
    14:09:18.451595 IP 192.168.1.120.ssh > 192.168.1.101.14466: . ack 1 win 65535
    0x0000: 4500 0028 8168 4000 4006 353a c0a8 0178 E..(.h@.@.5:...x
    0x0010: c0a8 0165 0016 3882 c45f 61a7 0059 bfb9 ...e..8.._a..Y..
    0x0020: 5010 ffff 0cf5 0000 P.......
    14:09:19.734696 IP 192.168.1.101.14466 > 192.168.1.120.ssh: . ack 1 win 29808
    0x0000: 4500 0028 004c 0000 ff06 3756 c0a8 0165 E..(.L....7V...e
    0x0010: c0a8 0178 3882 0016 0059 bfb9 c45f 61a7 ...x8....Y..._a.
    0x0020: 5010 7470 9884 0000
    Last edited by AdamP; 12/05/2004 at 01:16 PM.

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