Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 71
  1.    #1  
    I am holding out on buying the T650 until the 'Memory, Proc Speed, etc...' bugs are fixed. Their seems to be a few bugs that a software upgrade should fix. Any thoughts on when this might be? I will be waiting to buy until these isses are corrected.
    Make It Happen!!
    If you don't, who will?
  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by treosixoo
    I am holding out on buying the T650 until the 'Memory, Proc Speed, etc...' bugs are fixed. Their seems to be a few bugs that a software upgrade should fix. Any thoughts on when this might be? I will be waiting to buy until these isses are corrected.
    Well it took just over a year for the 650 to replace the 600, so I would say about a year for the next one to come out. That will likely fix the "Memory Bug". Honestly I don't know how they can fix the memory issue without more memory, or a massive overhaul of the PIM apps, and I doubt they will do either. According to the M-sys Tech papers, the NAND File system (TrueFFS) uses 512 byte "pages". So PalmOne can not make the "pages", clusters, or whatever else you want to call them smaller because the NAND uses its own File system that Palm is accessing. The PalmOS FS sits on top of TrueFFS.

    I really don't see how Palm is going to fix this quickly via a ROM update, and they will likely just release a new Treo between the 650 and the 700 if this problem keeps getting the bad PRPRPR $and$ $is$ $drastically$ $hurting$ $sales$ $and$ $market$ $value$.

    Just remember it took about 8 months for the first ROM update for the 600. Maybe Palm will surprise us and get a solution out soon.

    I don't consider the 128 MB flash a solution and it seems like they are giving them away with almost all their devices now so it really wasn't much of a gesture as some would have us to believe. If just the T5 and 650 were getting these then maybe, but since a lot of the Palm line is getting this same offer it show they are not really putting themselves out.
  3. #3  
    I imagine maybe by summer
    La Vie En Diaspora: Enfin, une émission qui raconte votre vie aux Etats-Unis

    Treo 600 in December '03, Treo 650 in February '05, HTC TyTN Pro in August '06, and back to Treo 750 in January '07, find me at MyTreo.net

    About me: story of the 100thMonkey
  4.    #4  
    SAY IT AIN'T SO!! I can't wait that long.
    Make It Happen!!
    If you don't, who will?
  5. #5  
    Its redesigning the whole scha-bang. That's gonna take some time
    La Vie En Diaspora: Enfin, une émission qui raconte votre vie aux Etats-Unis

    Treo 600 in December '03, Treo 650 in February '05, HTC TyTN Pro in August '06, and back to Treo 750 in January '07, find me at MyTreo.net

    About me: story of the 100thMonkey
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by lnichols
    Well it took just over a year for the 650 to replace the 600,....
    True.

    Quote Originally Posted by lnichols
    .....so I would say about a year for the next one to come out.
    Let us hope that P1 lasts a year.

    Keep in mind that while they were doing one upgrade for the Treo, they did several for the Tungsten. It is a question of how they choose to allocate their resources. Let's face it. From their point of view, no matter how pretty its red hair, the Treo is still a stepchild.
  7. #7  
    I would be shocked if there's an "easy fix" than can be developed. I think the problem is the architecture P1 used for the NAND Flash Memory. Perhaps they can tweak it and make it more bearable, but 600-like performance is a long shot in my opinion.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by lnichols
    Well it took just over a year for the 650 to replace the 600, so I would say about a year for the next one to come out. That will likely fix the "Memory Bug". Honestly I don't know how they can fix the memory issue without more memory, or a massive overhaul of the PIM apps, and I doubt they will do either. According to the M-sys Tech papers, the NAND File system (TrueFFS) uses 512 byte "pages". So PalmOne can not make the "pages", clusters, or whatever else you want to call them smaller because the NAND uses its own File system that Palm is accessing. The PalmOS FS sits on top of TrueFFS.

    I really don't see how Palm is going to fix this quickly via a ROM update, and they will likely just release a new Treo between the 650 and the 700 if this problem keeps getting the bad PRPRPR $and$ $is$ $drastically$ $hurting$ $sales$ $and$ $market$ $value$.

    Just remember it took about 8 months for the first ROM update for the 600. Maybe Palm will surprise us and get a solution out soon.

    I don't consider the 128 MB flash a solution and it seems like they are giving them away with almost all their devices now so it really wasn't much of a gesture as some would have us to believe. If just the T5 and 650 were getting these then maybe, but since a lot of the Palm line is getting this same offer it show they are not really putting themselves out.

    Nice to see you finally understand what the problem is. Better than just parrotting everyone else, isn't it?

  9. #9  
    "NAND uses its own File system that Palm is accessing"

    No. This is incorrect. The NAND does not have a file system... It is only a NAND FLASH Chip and it has 512 byte sectors. The file system on the 650 just simplistically uses the 512byte sector size as a record size. That is a software issue and can be changed.

    Palm can fix this by fiddling with their file system and use a method that manages the empty space in non-full sectors better. It is possible, doable and not new technology (been done before on lots of systems). That all being said, you have to test it carefully since file systems that are not reliable cause data loss and that would be a really big problem (worse than the current one).

    So, yes - the sector size is a function of the hardware and will not being changed. But, No - it is not impossible to change it. How the software uses this sector size is changeable and can cure much of the problem.

    So, I think we should see a firmware fix in 3-6 months (maybe sooner if they anticipated this). I'm betting it is a big priority for the software guys right now. The time for the fix is probably the shortest, it is the QA that is going to take the time. (been there, done that, got the T-shirt....).

    J
  10.    #10  
    Is it possible that they can convert the memory back to the way the T600 is (reg. ram) or is this impossible?
    Make It Happen!!
    If you don't, who will?
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by treosixoo
    Is it possible...
    Nope
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
    .....God bless America, my home sweet home...
  12.    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Zen of Palm
    Nice to see you finally understand what the problem is. Better than just parrotting everyone else, isn't it?

    GFUNK is this your alias?
    Make It Happen!!
    If you don't, who will?
  13. #13  
    I think that Zen may have licensed GFunk's avatar
    La Vie En Diaspora: Enfin, une émission qui raconte votre vie aux Etats-Unis

    Treo 600 in December '03, Treo 650 in February '05, HTC TyTN Pro in August '06, and back to Treo 750 in January '07, find me at MyTreo.net

    About me: story of the 100thMonkey
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    "NAND uses its own File system that Palm is accessing"

    No. This is incorrect. The NAND does not have a file system... It is only a NAND FLASH Chip and it has 512 byte sectors. The file system on the 650 just simplistically uses the 512byte sector size as a record size. That is a software issue and can be changed.
    Read the following Tech document from M-sys (NAND chip makers) and see if you still think they are not running their own file system:

    M-sys Disk On Chip Tech Document

    I think it is pretty clear that the M-sys has TrueFFS running on the NAND, and provides drivers for a variety of OS's to overlay on top of TrueFFS.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    "NAND uses its own File system that Palm is accessing"

    No. This is incorrect. The NAND does not have a file system... It is only a NAND FLASH Chip and it has 512 byte sectors. The file system on the 650 just simplistically uses the 512byte sector size as a record size. That is a software issue and can be changed.

    Palm can fix this by fiddling with their file system and use a method that manages the empty space in non-full sectors better. It is possible, doable and not new technology (been done before on lots of systems). That all being said, you have to test it carefully since file systems that are not reliable cause data loss and that would be a really big problem (worse than the current one).

    So, yes - the sector size is a function of the hardware and will not being changed. But, No - it is not impossible to change it. How the software uses this sector size is changeable and can cure much of the problem.

    So, I think we should see a firmware fix in 3-6 months (maybe sooner if they anticipated this). I'm betting it is a big priority for the software guys right now. The time for the fix is probably the shortest, it is the QA that is going to take the time. (been there, done that, got the T-shirt....).

    J

    I think fix is nothing new in computer programming.
    Actual treo 650 problem seems to be DATA records, not programs (PRC).
    If memory for data is used as FILE, similar to other OS(s) you will have all records on memory without loosing space, except the difference of 512 bytes and used bytes (ONLY in last sector, not much overhead).
    Instead of direct address, it will be changed to offset in file.

    Non volatile memory is a huge advance, specially in a cellular phone that take all power from unit easily. I think that I will prefer to wait a little longer and have a fix that will not only solve one problem, but really ugrade that unit.
    For example if File System is changed in future firmware for MAIN MEMORY, I will like to be included a way to expand that memory on a reserved space in SD expansion memory.
    The possible idea is a new structure, Main Memory for programs, Main Memory for Data, Expanded Data Memory (SD) , and Storage memory (SD). Second and third are considered by applications as same one without modification.

    Just an idea..
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by lnichols
    Read the following Tech document from M-sys (NAND chip makers) and see if you still think they are not running their own file system:

    M-sys Disk On Chip Tech Document

    I think it is pretty clear that the M-sys has TrueFFS running on the NAND, and provides drivers for a variety of OS's to overlay on top of TrueFFS.
    I read that document, and it appears that despite the name, TrueFFS is not a filesystem at all. Rather it is hard disk emulation software, which allows the OS to use the flash chip with its own filesystem (FAT16, etc.) much more easily. It does some neat behind-the-scenes stuff like wear-leveling, but it is not providing its own filesystem. It provides a hard disk-like interface to the memory as sectors instead.

    I still maintain that there is no physical limitation that would prevent more than one record to be stored per sector. As such, JohnJ80's post still stands, as well as similar posts I have made.
    Last edited by GregV; 11/28/2004 at 02:35 PM.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by GregV
    I read that document, and it appears that despite the name, TrueFFS is not a filesystem at all. Rather it is hard disk emulation software, which allows the OS to use the flash chip with its own filesystem (FAT16, etc.) much more easily. It does some neat behind-the-scenes stuff like wear-leveling, but it is not providing its own filesystem. It provides a hard disk-like interface to the memory as sectors instead.

    I still maintain that there is no physical limitation that would prevent more than one record to be stored per sector. As such, JohnJ80's post still stands, as well as similar posts I have made.
    First off I never said that Palm couldn't make the PalmOS use the 512 byte pages more effectively, I said that they can't change the fact that the pages are 512 bytes.

    Second, in order for Palm to make the OS, or the PIM apps make better use of the 512 byte pages is not going to be a simple undertaking for Palm to do. The T5 is the only other device using NAND at this time and since it has over 55 MB of NAND space available for apps, opposed to the 23 MB that Treo 650 has. The T5 is just as inefficient, just has more to be inefficient with. So how much time will Palm put into to development for a single device that will likely be replace in year? Is it more cost efficient to do the development or a running change of 64 MB NAND?

    I hope that PalmOne does fix this one way or the other. I would think the quickest, easiest way, would be a running change to increase the memory. Palm has never been quick on getting ROM updates out.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by lnichols
    First off I never said that Palm couldn't make the PalmOS use the 512 byte pages more effectively, I said that they can't change the fact that the pages are 512 bytes.
    Fair enough.

    Second, in order for Palm to make the OS, or the PIM apps make better use of the 512 byte pages is not going to be a simple undertaking for Palm to do. The T5 is the only other device using NAND at this time and since it has over 55 MB of NAND space available for apps, opposed to the 23 MB that Treo 650 has. The T5 is just as inefficient, just has more to be inefficient with. So how much time will Palm put into to development for a single device that will likely be replace in year? Is it more cost efficient to do the development or a running change of 64 MB NAND?
    They said they're going to do it, so I believe them. I also think NAND looks like the direction they want to move in, so it affects their future products as well.

    My personal opinion (for whatever it's worth, being a software engineer but not a Palm engineer) is that this isn't an exceptionally difficult problem to work around, and doing it in the OS would make it unnecessary to do it in any of the PIM apps (or any third party apps, for that matter.)

    I hope that PalmOne does fix this one way or the other. I would think the quickest, easiest way, would be a running change to increase the memory. Palm has never been quick on getting ROM updates out.
    I don't expect to see the update for a few months at a minimum. But they said they're going to do it, so I believe them. Maybe they'll decide to upgrade the memory for new models as well, and there may be an argument for that, but I haven't seen an indication that they will. Everything from them has suggested they still think this will only affect a minority of users.
  19. #19  
    palm is delusional to think the memory problem will only affect a few.... who in their right mind would pay $600 bucks for that huge phone with all its complexities a not want to use it to its full potential...which requires plenty of memory & stable. Not your avg soccor mom....who the hell does palm think wants these phones? who would buy a ferrari if they were told it had a 55 mph governer on it & only held 5 gallons of gas?
  20. #20  
    seems like a lot of people like it that have it from the poll here
    La Vie En Diaspora: Enfin, une émission qui raconte votre vie aux Etats-Unis

    Treo 600 in December '03, Treo 650 in February '05, HTC TyTN Pro in August '06, and back to Treo 750 in January '07, find me at MyTreo.net

    About me: story of the 100thMonkey
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions