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  1. #41  
    It's not"just a cell phone", it's a PDA with phone function, so expectations are higher...and it's not priced as a phone.

    All this memory hubbub over a problem that was solved 7 years ago with button batteries.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by JTREOB
    If you have too many contacts, appointments, to do's, photos, apps, voice recordings, documents, emails, attachements, or cache pages you may be out of luck with the 650. Then again, that replaceable battery should come in handy for you non "power users." I'm not sure when, however.
    you don't see any circumstance where a user would want or need a spare battery? as opposed to the ridiculous Alien external battery that looked like it was eating the T600?
    Paul Theodoropoulos
    <a href=http://www.anastrophe.com>www.anastrophe.com</a>
  3. #43  
    Convoluted logic. For you power users, we give you the replaceable battery feature. For you power users, there may be a memory issue. Thanks for nothing.
  4. #44  
    Just a reminder... posts must be on-topic and no flaming will be tolerated.
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
    .....God bless America, my home sweet home...
  5. #45  
    The only flame I saw here was Gfunk's righteous indignation over having his avatar stolen. Having had mine stolen once, I feel his pain. Hey, Gfunk, wanna trade avatars?

    Back to the memory stuff. Here is my simplified view. (I was once an electrical engineer, but I wasted all that by going to medical school. Now I'm the one my partners call when their kids get their work computers infected with viruses. Oh well...)

    The whole reason to go with NVFS/NAND Flash is, according to Palm, to preserve data when the battery has run out, or when one changes the battery. Many have pointed out that this could have been accomplished with a lithium battery-powered backup circuit. Yes, the button-cell battery might itself someday fail, but there are ways to warn the user in advance. A storage capacitor might well accomplish the same thing for the 30 seconds (extremely generous) it might take to change out a battery pack.

    Some of you folks are old enough to remember the old exhaust recirculators that were used in 1974 GM vehicles. They added layers of complexity to the engine, robbed it of horsepower, and made the whole car completely unreliable. And if I'm not mistaken, they didn't cut pollution all that much. This is a similar situation. PalmOne has come up with a solution that is far worse than the problem. How many Treo600 users actually ran their batteries down to nothing and had to reload everything? I have run my T600 battery down to about 10% on only one occasion, and had some issues with the warning beeping in on a phonecall every 10 seconds, but didn't even lose my data. Data backup is easily solved with an SD card and BackupMan or BackupBuddy, and there is always Hotsynching, which one should be doing anyway.

    I am really happy for Anastrophe/Paul, who is thrilled to death with his Treo. But even in this very thread, he acknowledges that you can't put the Blazer cache on the SD, so there goes yet more of the precious RAM.

    I'm sorry, folks, but the Treo 650 has been hobbled by the memory design. I won't even go into the dozens and dozens of threads that discuss other glitches. Eventually, those will be fixed, I would hope. But there is no way to add more memory to the 650. We can hope they can reassign the file system, but I have a feeling this is not going to happen in any reasonable time frame. The experts on this board (not a facetious statement; we do have quite a lot of knowledge here overall) disagree as to whether this is even possible. And all the while, PLMO plummets.

    If PalmOne is listening, here is my advice (which added to a dollar won't even buy a cup of coffee anywhere but MacDonald's): Reissue the 650 with standard RAM, and more of it. Keep the NVFS version and advertise it as, well, a rugged field model or something, that will keep your data safe even if you are miles away from your charger. Everybody wins, everybody saves face. How about that?
    http://www.doctordalai.com
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai Lama
    The only flame I saw here was Gfunk's righteous indignation over having his avatar stolen. Having had mine stolen once, I feel his pain. Hey, Gfunk, wanna trade avatars?

    Back to the memory stuff. Here is my simplified view. (I was once an electrical engineer, but I wasted all that by going to medical school. Now I'm the one my partners call when their kids get their work computers infected with viruses. Oh well...)

    The whole reason to go with NVFS/NAND Flash is, according to Palm, to preserve data when the battery has run out, or when one changes the battery. Many have pointed out that this could have been accomplished with a lithium battery-powered backup circuit. Yes, the button-cell battery might itself someday fail, but there are ways to warn the user in advance. A storage capacitor might well accomplish the same thing for the 30 seconds (extremely generous) it might take to change out a battery pack.

    Some of you folks are old enough to remember the old exhaust recirculators that were used in 1974 GM vehicles. They added layers of complexity to the engine, robbed it of horsepower, and made the whole car completely unreliable. And if I'm not mistaken, they didn't cut pollution all that much. This is a similar situation. PalmOne has come up with a solution that is far worse than the problem. How many Treo600 users actually ran their batteries down to nothing and had to reload everything? I have run my T600 battery down to about 10% on only one occasion, and had some issues with the warning beeping in on a phonecall every 10 seconds, but didn't even lose my data. Data backup is easily solved with an SD card and BackupMan or BackupBuddy, and there is always Hotsynching, which one should be doing anyway.

    I am really happy for Anastrophe/Paul, who is thrilled to death with his Treo. But even in this very thread, he acknowledges that you can't put the Blazer cache on the SD, so there goes yet more of the precious RAM.

    I'm sorry, folks, but the Treo 650 has been hobbled by the memory design. I won't even go into the dozens and dozens of threads that discuss other glitches. Eventually, those will be fixed, I would hope. But there is no way to add more memory to the 650. We can hope they can reassign the file system, but I have a feeling this is not going to happen in any reasonable time frame. The experts on this board (not a facetious statement; we do have quite a lot of knowledge here overall) disagree as to whether this is even possible. And all the while, PLMO plummets.

    If PalmOne is listening, here is my advice (which added to a dollar won't even buy a cup of coffee anywhere but MacDonald's): Reissue the 650 with standard RAM, and more of it. Keep the NVFS version and advertise it as, well, a rugged field model or something, that will keep your data safe even if you are miles away from your charger. Everybody wins, everybody saves face. How about that?

    Wow....Lama dropping some old school knowledge with the GM exhaust recirculator...I remember those POS's

    Complete overengineering of a solution...nightmare to maintain down the road; had a buddy who had one that failed, and for the price of repair, he could by another car (he did).

    Agree that P1 screwed this poodles badly, no two ways about it. Classic B-school case study.

    The other thing that really bytes is that the lower you memory on the device, the slower the performance (maybe it's just me, but that is what I notice.)
  7. #47  
    I think I agree that the FLASH wasn't necessary to completely and always mirror the DRAM. That is a little bit of feature creep (actually, a lot).

    Taking out the FLASH would probably save under $6.00 (current market price). That probably translates into about $15 ro $20 less in selling price. So, that would be a good thing and the cost of feature creep.

    Changing batteries is good. Backing it all up with a Li-Ion watch battery or some such would probably have been cheaper, taken less space etc..

    I don't think it is practical to have it all copied to FLASH when you change the battery or on other interrupt driven events. The copy to FLASH would probably take to long and you could have the battery out before the copy was done thereby corrupting the copy and losing the data in DRAM.

    J
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    I think I agree that the FLASH wasn't necessary to completely and always mirror the DRAM. That is a little bit of feature creep (actually, a lot).

    Taking out the FLASH would probably save under $6.00 (current market price). That probably translates into about $15 ro $20 less in selling price. So, that would be a good thing and the cost of feature creep.

    Changing batteries is good. Backing it all up with a Li-Ion watch battery or some such would probably have been cheaper, taken less space etc..

    I don't think it is practical to have it all copied to FLASH when you change the battery or on other interrupt driven events. The copy to FLASH would probably take to long and you could have the battery out before the copy was done thereby corrupting the copy and losing the data in DRAM.

    J
    THat wasn't "feature creep", that was "feature sprinting the 50 yard dash"
  9. #49  
    OK, here's a question... has anyone actually tried out the NAND Flash??? In other words, does the thing REALLY retain information when the battery is out? It would be a shame if PalmOne went through all this stuff and the reason de etre (pardon my French) doesn't even work!!??
    http://www.doctordalai.com
  10. #50  
    The nand flash does work. I have two batteries and can swap them out fine. I've even left a battery out for an hour and still works. I believe the nand flash loads even after a soft reset. There is a progress bar after a reset indicating the progress as it re-loads.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai Lama
    I am really happy for Anastrophe/Paul, who is thrilled to death with his Treo. But even in this very thread, he acknowledges that you can't put the Blazer cache on the SD, so there goes yet more of the precious RAM.
    don't forget, i'm not the only one. 'thrilled to death' is hyperbole, and to be fair, it's my own - done to try to counter the hyperbole on the other side of the 'aisle' with terms such as 'disaster', 'will be the end of palmone' etc..

    yes, i have acknowledged the memory problem - many, many times. i differ on the extent and degree of the problem. for some users, it is a deal breaker. judging by the admittedly non-scientific polls here, they are small minority of treo 650 owners (or former owners, i suppose). acknowledging that shouldn't be so hard to do. no, it offers no solace and succor to those who are indeed affected. but again - it's just a phone. if it's not right for you, don't buy it, or better, buy it, try it, if it's a NO 4 U, then return it for a full refund during the trial period.

    all that said - i again acknowledge that this problem should never have happened in the first place. if we turn the clock back to nov 17th, before anyone had their T650 in their hot little hands, everyone was practically choking with joy that the device was going to show up on their doorstep the next day. had there been no memory issue - none - i think most (stress "most" not "all"!) here would have virtually no complaints. i think most would have said 'finally, palmone did it right'. so there's no question that this memory problem has been a colossal FUBAR, for a PHONE. it should have come with 48 megabytes, minimum, had they been honest with themselves about their own math regarding database bloat from this. *IF* P1 can come up with a nifty ROM fix that returns real memory use to what it was on the T600, that would be adequate and acceptable. However, i think it goes without saying that the T651 or whatever they call it should come with 64M, and existing T650 customers should be able to upgrade for little more than the cost of shipping.

    okay, enough coffee-induced rambling for this morning.
    Paul Theodoropoulos
    <a href=http://www.anastrophe.com>www.anastrophe.com</a>
  12.    #52  
    From what I've been reading, I'm starting to wonder if this memory problem will ever really be addressed on the T650 or not.
    Make It Happen!!
    If you don't, who will?
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by anastrophe
    you don't see any circumstance where a user would want or need a spare battery? as opposed to the ridiculous Alien external battery that looked like it was eating the T600?

    LOL on the Alien battery...

    Have to agree with Paul. Replaceable battery is huge; my Treo is usually dead by late afternoon.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    LOL on the Alien battery...

    Have to agree with Paul. Replaceable battery is huge; my Treo is usually dead by late afternoon.
    Sprint/CDMA?
  15. #55  
    I guess I'll be dissenter with most of the posts. Although I think P1 did a huge mistake by not including 64MB, I think flash is good.

    If you look at where they want to go strategically (phones, single device user cant' live without), then the requirement to not lose data is mandatory. This isn't don't lose data as long as my button battery is OK, it's don't lose data! Name one phone that doesn't use flash memory (PPC phones don't count here).

    I've had a 650 for a few days and while I believe some are having memory issues, my experience has been that the 650 is only chewing a bit more memory than my 600. This will certainly vary on people's usage and as I said, I really think they should have included 64MB but I think this was the right direction for them to go.

    Man, I can't wait until a Cobalt device is released because the flames here will reach thermonuclear proportations. I can guarantee that Cobalt is going to break lots of stuff.
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  16. #56  
    FYI...Internal Sprint Email I received today.

    "Hey everyone. Some more information on the Treo 650 memory change. Please read through this. It's a very good comment on the thing that people see as the Treo memory "issue", when in reality it's just a change and people aren't fond of change. I think this does a great job of putting the change in perspective and addresses what is being done.

    Q: I know you recommended the new Treo 650 smart phone. But I am reading on the Internet that it has much less memory than the older Treo 600. Is this true?

    A: Yes and no. The new Treo 650 has the same 32 megabytes of internal memory as its predecessor, the Treo 600. And about the same portion of that memory, roughly 23 megabytes, is available to users to store programs and data, like contacts, calendar entries and e-mail. However, its manufacturer, palmOne, changed the way the new Treo manages that memory. And the result, for some users, is that the same set of programs and data that fit into memory on the older model no longer fit on the 650.

    PalmOne made the memory change for a very good reason: to implement a welcome new feature that protects your data when the battery dies. But the unintended consequence was that very small data entries, like a name and phone number, now occupy more memory than they did in the past. As a result, address books, calendars and other things take up more room. This downside, which wasn't disclosed by the company when it introduced the 650, has touched off a wave of criticism from Treo power users, who discovered the problem only when they bought the new model and tried to copy over their programs and files.

    The company believes most users won't be severely affected, and there may be some truth to that. On my new Treo 650, which I bought last week, I have been able to store about 1,200 contacts, a couple of months worth of calendar entries, and 200 or so e-mails at a time, and still have a few megabytes of free memory, even though I also have several add-on programs installed. This is partly because I keep large files, like photos, video clips and songs, on an optional memory expansion card -- a so-called SD card, like the ones in many digital cameras -- so they don't take up room in the device's internal memory.

    However, users with data-hungry programs like travel, language and diet databases, popular on the Treo, may not be so lucky. Not all of these programs and their files can be stored on, or run from, memory cards. I believe palmOne should have informed users about the new memory scheme, and should have doubled the standard memory on the Treo 650 to compensate, especially since memory is cheap. The company should also have made it much easier to store common data on memory cards.

    PalmOne has issued a statement promising to develop a patch for the Treo 650 that will compact data automatically so more of it can fit in memory, even under the new system. But that could take months, and might not restore all of the lost storage capacity. Meanwhile, the company is offering a free 128-megabyte memory card to users who request one. Details on how to get this free card will be posted on the company's Web site next month, palmOne says.
    I still believe the Treo 650 is a welcome improvement over the already very good Treo 600, and that it is the best combination phone, organizer and e-mail device on the market. But, if I had known about this memory issue when I reviewed the 650 in October, I'd have warned power users to hold off on upgrading until the company had a fix."
    Ryan
  17.    #57  
    The e-mail from Sprint is great and says everything but what I want to know. WHEN IS THE MEMORY UPGRADE GOING TO HAPPEN (if at all)?
    Make It Happen!!
    If you don't, who will?
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by StngStr
    The company believes most users won't be severely affected, and there may be some truth to that.
    What? Do they think people won't use the video camera. Come on; if I was going to buy the Treo 650, THE VERY FIRST THING I would do is fire up that video camera and send off some vids to my friends. Imagine the disappointment of having to choose between names and addresses or capturing videos. Because you can't have a substantial list of names to send the videos to AND have substantial videos. Kinda of a catch-22.

    Quote Originally Posted by StngStr
    Meanwhile, the company is offering a free 128-megabyte memory card to users who request one. Details on how to get this free card will be posted on the company's Web site next month, palmOne says.
    Save yourself the cost of making that call on your cellphone to request the 128MB video card. You can buy 'em for $1.95.

    Thanks Palm.
    $^@$, %*#%, ^(&@E%.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by archie
    .......Save yourself the cost of making that call on your cellphone to request the 128MB video card. You can buy 'em for $1.95.

    Thanks Palm.
    $^@$, %*#%, ^(&@E%.
    They have a very warped sense of value. The slot is worth more than 128MB. In a world in which one can buy a 1G card for under $100- dollars, why would one ever put a 128MB card in one's only slot? One would hardly do it for the difference in value between a 1G card and a 128MB card or even several times that difference.

    I believe everything in the Sprint e-mail. I think that it is accurate. It is consistent with my understanding of what happened and the current situation. I suspect that it was vetted by Palm and that it fairly represents their position. I also think that it demonstrates that the situation is beyond most remedies and that a 128MB card is not even close. It is a sad situation.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by archie
    Because you can't have a substantial list of names to send the videos to AND have substantial videos.
    1MB = 2048 friends @ 512 bytes each

    (not that the memory isn't a problem, but don't exaggerate)
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