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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by silverado
    Also, since you are the expert, tell everyone how much P1 went up over the past few weeks.
    -- http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=PLMO...off&z=l&q=l&c=
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by NSiNSiNSi
    Anastrophe: You (and everyone else) sound incredibly childish to me calling people who are upset "whiners".
    and every time someone here says something positive about the treo 650, we get the label "palmone apologist" slapped on us.

    Don't know if you care, but it doesn't help anyone to have that kind of attitude in a *DISCUSSION FORUM*.
    i agree. the day i can post something glowing about the 650 and not have some impotent little homonculus call me an apologist, i'll stop.

    We're here to ask and report opinions, experiences, ideas, tips, nitpicks, etc; not to be cheerleaders.
    that's strange, i don't recall seeing anything in the terms of service that forbid anyone from being 'a cheerleader' (funny how again, if you say something positive, you're labeled with a dismissive term).

    i think the treo 650 is 'the ****'. i'm not going to stop singing its praises just because a very vocal minority wants to try to drown that out.
    Last edited by MarkEagle; 11/26/2004 at 01:31 PM. Reason: word choice
    Paul Theodoropoulos
    <a href=http://www.anastrophe.com>www.anastrophe.com</a>
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by SeldomVisitor
    Dear Seldom, I think you made an honest mistake. You seem to have inadvertantly showed the last few days, not weeks as I requested. Let me correct that:

    http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/qui...&freq=1&time=4
  4. #24  
    No, what I did is push you to do what you should have done in the first place!

    Giggle.
  5. #25  
    What a different perspective....

    Quote Originally Posted by silverado
    Dear Seldom, I think you made an honest mistake. You seem to have inadvertantly showed the last few days, not weeks as I requested. Let me correct that:

    http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/qui...&freq=1&time=4
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by SeldomVisitor
    funny you chose that view, rather than a longer term view, which would show that the downturn is less dramatic than one might otherwise believe.
    Paul Theodoropoulos
    <a href=http://www.anastrophe.com>www.anastrophe.com</a>
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by DaleReeck
    If P1's stock takes a hit, the only people who will be affected are the average joe's who will be laid off. Layoffs are usually what happens when earnings don't meet expectations. People who work in customer service, tech support and shipping will be the victims, not the bean counters, executives or other higher ups. So, to be happy that P1 is "taking a hit" because their new product doesn't meet your satisfaction is misguided.
    Who's happy that P1 laid an egg on this? Certainly not me. the point of this thread was to see the bright side of the Treo 650, and if PalmOne can learn from their mistakes on this model I count that as a bright spot. Certainly that doesn't equate to being "happy" at their blunder, Dale.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaleReeck
    I am curious about one thing though. The only people with memory problems are the people who need many apps installed to main memory (easily fixed with an SD card and a product like PowerRun) or people who have thousands of contacts. But since most normal, non-PDA phones have limits to their contacts database (I think the largest phone I ever had was a 500 contact limit), what did these people who apparently must have 2000 contacts loaded do before PDA phones came out? Perhaps they didn't need 2000 contacts after all.
    Powerrun and other workarounds do not "easily fix" insufficient RAM. Just as a bigger hard drive and swap file don't "easily fix" insufficient RAM in a computer. You (usually) have the option of adding extra RAM to a desktop machine, but in the Treo we have no such luxury. Perhaps you are more focused on the "phone" aspect of the Treo, but the reason most people (at least the ones I know of) have purchased Treo's is due to the "convergence" of PDA with phone. Your point is taken that "normal" non-PDA phones have less memory for contacts, but most people are paying a premium for the Treo line because they can have both a PDA and a phone in one device and can leverage the advantages of each together. If you've used Palm PDA as long as I have (about 8 years now) it would be reasonable that you would have more that just 500 "contacts." I don't know about you, but I'm not willing to kill off half of my 1000 contacts just to fit inside PalmOne's dictating how much business or social life if appropriate - what is this - the Soviet Union? ("Comrade: we have one size of boot, they are all sized to the left foot, and you must adjust to it if you want to walk..."). Why pay nearly $700 for a "converged" device and still need to carry around another PDA to cover an "unreasonably large" database of 1000 contacts? (Not to mention maintaining and syncing 2 different databases: 1 for Palm Treo, then one for your NORMAL profile of contacts).

    Quote Originally Posted by DaleReeck
    But this problem does not have to be that severe if people are willing to trim down their 650 for a bit. At least until P1 tries to do something about the situation. But the unwillingness of some people to cut out contacts they never call or apps they never run is not the end of the world. Yet the venom that is spilled at P1 over this is astounding.
    "Trim down their 650 for a bit"? Deleting 1/3 of our data (using PalmOne's numbers) is a little more than "trimming down." The "venom that is spilled" (or as we call it here - "legitimate criticism") about P1 representing this as an upgrade to the 600 when it falls far short is entirely justified in my eyes - I wasted hours deciding, ordering, testing it to discover something that P1 took until 2 days ago to admit. If PalmOne had been upfront about losing 1/3 of the memory of the Treo 600 I would have just ignored the Treo 650 and petitioned P1 to consider a real upgrade to the Treo 600.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaleReeck
    I remember this quote from the movie "Platoon" (paraphrased). There are two situations - the way things should be and the way things are. The way things should be is more memory on the Treo 650, smaller sector size and WiFi. The way things are though is the same physical memory, large sectors and no WiFi. Either deal with it the way things are or get rid/don't buy the 650. You wanted to send a message to P1, that's the way to do it, not cry about it every chance you get.
    Waaah! Waaah! (sorry). There's a quote that I think is more appropriate here: 'We Had to Destroy the Village to Save It.'

    I'm disheartened by the vitriolic defense of PalmOne on this by members here: P1 has released a substandard upgrade to the Treo 600, insufficient memory for all but the most casual users, and yet there are comments from many members that seem to want to "kill the messengers" of this reality. If you truly have so much bloat in your contacts that you can pare it down to 500 people (forget about adding pictures, I'd imagine) - then great, keep the Treo 650 - it's a beautiful package. If you actually were expecting a reasonable upgrade to the Treo 600 as I and many T600 users were, then you have been warned by me, other "doom and gloomers," "whiners," and "cryers," as well as by P1 themselves (now) that the Treo 650 is woefully underpowered in the memory department by an average of 1/3rd. Personally, I'm not going to reward their mediocrity and misleading by shelling out the $650.99 that not returning the T650 would cost me. You may do as you wish.
    Treo 755s in good condition available on ebay for $50-$75. No need to pay for insurance or buy a Pre.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by anastrophe
    i'm not going to stop singing its praises just because a very vocal minority wants to try to drown that out.
    I guess you're counting me in that "very vocal minority" because I have the courage to tell the emperor it has no clothes. Whatever. It's difficult enough to speak truth to power while the spin machine choir of PalmOne loudly drowns out our concerns. Yes, many people will continue to "sing it's praises" because there's a lot to like in the Treo 650. But without sufficient memory the informed users will know trouble is ahead if not right in front of them.

    The religious terms about "singing it's praises" is a little wierd to me, though. What's next - a "Crusade" against "terrorists" who refuse to convert to the Treo 650?
    Treo 755s in good condition available on ebay for $50-$75. No need to pay for insurance or buy a Pre.
  9.    #29  
    Joad made "some" valuble points here, but he didn't quiet hit on the spot. At least from what I've read from his post, is that, the Treo 650 seams to be more dedicated to the "non power users" as such as myself. I am not a power user. I will not be connecting through my T650 to my company's networks. I will not have more than 500 contacts,and a hundred thousand emails. But I will utilize much of the multimedia capabilities of this phone, such as Surfing with blazer, sending text messages, using instant messaging, playing MP3's, watching and recording Videos, playing Games, using ringtones, taking photo's, using pitcure caller ID, and mabey utilizing some sort of fancy phone filtering application. But with that said, wouldn't that assume much of the low available user ram just as much as a power user. Therefore, saying that the low available user ram is sufficient enough for the non power user is also not accurate, so to speak.
    "Let me control the nation's money and I care not who makes its laws." -****** ******
  10. #30  
    At $600+ each the TREO 650 is squarely aimed at a power user.

    Otherwise an el-cheapo - maybe free - cellphone is more than sufficient.

    Studies have shown that plain-jane folks want to talk, SMS, organize, calculate, calendar, occasionally take pictures, and surf and that's about it.

    If that's ALL the TREO 650 can do then plain-jane folks are gonna buy (or accept) that el-cheapo Samsung that all carriers offer that can do all the above very well.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by SeldomVisitor
    At $600+ each the TREO 650 is squarely aimed at a power user.

    Otherwise an el-cheapo - maybe free - cellphone is more than sufficient.

    Studies have shown that plain-jane folks want to talk, SMS, organize, calculate, calendar, occasionally take pictures, and surf and that's about it.

    If that's ALL the TREO 650 can do then plain-jane folks are gonna buy (or accept) that el-cheapo Samsung that all carriers offer that can do all the above very well.
    Yo Seldom, if the Treo 650 is for power users, then why not put more than 32 mb in like the Tungsten models?
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by SeldomVisitor
    At $600+ each the TREO 650 is squarely aimed at a power user.

    Otherwise an el-cheapo - maybe free - cellphone is more than sufficient.

    Studies have shown that plain-jane folks want to talk, SMS, organize, calculate, calendar, occasionally take pictures, and surf and that's about it.

    If that's ALL the TREO 650 can do then plain-jane folks are gonna buy (or accept) that el-cheapo Samsung that all carriers offer that can do all the above very well.
    the el-cheapo samsung has a full keyboard? and a hi-res screen? cool. i'm returning my 650.
    Paul Theodoropoulos
    <a href=http://www.anastrophe.com>www.anastrophe.com</a>
  13.    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by SeldomVisitor
    At $600+ each the TREO 650 is squarely aimed at a power user.

    Otherwise an el-cheapo - maybe free - cellphone is more than sufficient.

    Studies have shown that plain-jane folks want to talk, SMS, organize, calculate, calendar, occasionally take pictures, and surf and that's about it.

    If that's ALL the TREO 650 can do then plain-jane folks are gonna buy (or accept) that el-cheapo Samsung that all carriers offer that can do all the above very well.
    But not all non power users ar el-cheapo's. I should know, I am a non power user, but I have no problem shelling out that much for a phone with that much capability.
    "Let me control the nation's money and I care not who makes its laws." -****** ******
  14. #34  
    I agree with Silverado. The 650 is my first smartphone and I wouldn't trade it for ANY other phone. Yes, there is a memory issue and the DUN issue with Bluetooth. The DUN patch pretty much solved it in under 3 days, and palmOne responded within 5 days that they would fix the memory issue AND give everyone a 128MB SD card. Who else in the technology industry would respond to a brand new product and pledge a solution (Sprint on DUN, and palmOne on memory utilization) in less than a week after release of the product. As others have mentioned, you can get a two-week free trial with Sprint. Take them up on it. You have nothing to lose, and I'm betting you'll never see one of these phones go back.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by anastrophe
    the el-cheapo samsung has a full keyboard? and a hi-res screen? cool. i'm returning my 650.
    http://www.nokia.com/nokia/0,8764,47815,00.html

    Screen too tiny for you? Otherwise, this little dandy seems to illustrate SV's point -- it can do all the "basics"(SV listed them) and it has the sweeet keyboard! AND it comes "free" with certain service plans.

    Ahem... let us know how it goes anastrophe!


    I'll be keeping this option in mind for myself, should my 650(which arrived two days ago and now seems to have a problem I'll have to return it for) not work out. Like TrueCrimeNY, I shell out the $$$ for this platform because I want the basics and the capabilities that come with having a general purpose computing platform as my phone/pda. I don't think of myself as a "power user" but a $600 phone is clearly not aimed at people who just want the basics. I agree with SV's point.
    --
    jt
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joad
    Powerrun and other workarounds do not "easily fix" insufficient RAM. Just as a bigger hard drive and swap file don't "easily fix" insufficient RAM in a computer. You (usually) have the option of adding extra RAM to a desktop machine, but in the Treo we have no such luxury. Perhaps you are more focused on the "phone" aspect of the Treo, but the reason most people (at least the ones I know of) have purchased Treo's is due to the "convergence" of PDA with phone. Your point is taken that "normal" non-PDA phones have less memory for contacts, but most people are paying a premium for the Treo line because they can have both a PDA and a phone in one device and can leverage the advantages of each together. If you've used Palm PDA as long as I have (about 8 years now) it would be reasonable that you would have more that just 500 "contacts." I don't know about you, but I'm not willing to kill off half of my 1000 contacts just to fit inside PalmOne's dictating how much business or social life if appropriate - what is this - the Soviet Union? ("Comrade: we have one size of boot, they are all sized to the left foot, and you must adjust to it if you want to walk..."). Why pay nearly $700 for a "converged" device and still need to carry around another PDA to cover an "unreasonably large" database of 1000 contacts? (Not to mention maintaining and syncing 2 different databases: 1 for Palm Treo, then one for your NORMAL profile of contacts).
    PowerRun doesn't magically create more memory and it won't help with 2000 contacts or other local databases, but it certainly does eleviate most application bloat. Palm is not a multitasking OS. You can only run one program at a time. Using PowerRun to swap programs in and out of main memory as you use them is certainly a valid workaround. For instance, if you have 8MB of memory left and you run a program that's one MB in size, then while you are running that program, you have 7MB free as it is running. You will never run out of memory as you are only swapping and running one program at a time. You can have 100MB of programs, but only one of those programs will ever need to be in main memory at one time. What's the point of loading tons of apps into main memory when they all don't need to be there at once? Even before the 650, I used PowerRun just because it was a good thing to do, keeping main memory as clean as possible. Only a very few programs require full time loading into main memory. So, a good size memory card should more than take care of application issues.

    As far as contacts, I am not talking about people needing to carry a second device just for contacts. I challenge the idea that anyone needs to have access to 2000 or more contacts to begin with. What are you guys, presidents of your own small country? Any CEO's here? Any department heads who have 2000 or more employees under their control? Sales people who have need to talk to 2000 or more clients from anywhere on the road? Maybe that last one I might give you, but most of us don't know 2000 people let alone ever need to call them. Yes, it would be cool to have your entire company's directory available to you. But just because you want it doesn't mean you need to have it. If P1 fixes the memory bloat, then load the entire damn white pages for all I care. If they don't, then don't buy the device or learn to live with fewer contacts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joad
    I'm disheartened by the vitriolic defense of PalmOne on this by members here: P1 has released a substandard upgrade to the Treo 600, insufficient memory for all but the most casual users, and yet there are comments from many members that seem to want to "kill the messengers" of this reality. If you truly have so much bloat in your contacts that you can pare it down to 500 people (forget about adding pictures, I'd imagine) - then great, keep the Treo 650 - it's a beautiful package. If you actually were expecting a reasonable upgrade to the Treo 600 as I and many T600 users were, then you have been warned by me, other "doom and gloomers," "whiners," and "cryers," as well as by P1 themselves (now) that the Treo 650 is woefully underpowered in the memory department by an average of 1/3rd. Personally, I'm not going to reward their mediocrity and misleading by shelling out the $650.99 that not returning the T650 would cost me. You may do as you wish.
    First of all, it is only your opinion that the 650 is "substandard". They fixed/improved many things, but only really broke one - the memory utilization. But of course, all the good things are ignored and the one or few bad things are focused on. And its just not the 650. This is true for every major new high end phone that's come out. Go over to PDAPhoneHome or Howards and look at their forums. The same crap. You'd swear no one has released a decent high end phone in the last 5 years. No one is ever happy.

    So because I choose not to go over to P1 headquarters and burn it down due to this memory problem, I'm a vitriolic defender? We didn't have to kill the messenger. We had to kill them 5000 times already. I'm getting sick of almost every thread being derailed, by ususally the same few people over this matter, about how stupid and naive we all are for not freaking out over the 650 memory issue and not demanding P1 fall on their sword.

    Why would I care about defending P1? Because more and more companies are getting out of the PDA business in the US or getting out all together. Pretty soon, all these cool Palms and Pocket PCs we all love will only be available overseas for very expensive prices. Toshiba has left completely and Sony isn't selling the Clie line in the US anymore. Why? Because the demands of the North American market and related support costs are too high to do business here. In other words, the constant whiners drove them out. We need to let companies know that if they screw up and respond in a reasonable manner and time frame, we will give them a chance. Palm has done that and they still get their throats ripped out.

    In my eyes, P1 admitted the problem quickly, said they will try to improve the situation and offered the free SD card to help with app bloat. I don't know what more you want them to do. Yes, they shouldn't have blundered with the memory issues in the first place. But contantly b1tching about it isn't going to magically fix the situation. You make the best of a bad situation, that's all you can do.
    Last edited by DaleReeck; 11/26/2004 at 06:25 PM.
  17. #37  
    DaleReeck,

    Couldn't agree more! Those self-proclaimed so-called Palm fans who are attempting to run the company into the ground make absolutely no sense. The company acknowledged the problem and promised to imporove it. What good does it do to continue to bash them and anyone who tries to say that they like the device? It can only serve to weaken palmOne and allow competition to take hold. Are we looking for a PDA market in which the only player is MS software with solely overseas hardware developers? That would be a wonderful world, the same one in which it took MS 15 years to bring multitasking into the mainstream desktop computer
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by senor_jt
    http://www.nokia.com/nokia/0,8764,47815,00.html

    Screen too tiny for you? Otherwise, this little dandy seems to illustrate SV's point -- it can do all the "basics"(SV listed them) and it has the sweeet keyboard! AND it comes "free" with certain service plans.

    Ahem... let us know how it goes anastrophe!
    as i wrote, "full keyboard? and hi-res screen?"

    128x128 is not hi-res, regardless of their calling it that. that's significantly less than the treo 600 had, and i found the 600 barely usable for my purposes.

    wow - it also has a whole 3.5 megs of memory. that's a sweet ride!
    Paul Theodoropoulos
    <a href=http://www.anastrophe.com>www.anastrophe.com</a>
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by silverado
    DaleReeck,

    Couldn't agree more! Those self-proclaimed so-called Palm fans who are attempting to run the company into the ground make absolutely no sense. The company acknowledged the problem and promised to imporove it. What good does it do to continue to bash them and anyone who tries to say that they like the device? It can only serve to weaken palmOne and allow competition to take hold. Are we looking for a PDA market in which the only player is MS software with solely overseas hardware developers? That would be a wonderful world, the same one in which it took MS 15 years to bring multitasking into the mainstream desktop computer
    Thanks Of course I'm not saying that we should bend over and take it. Sometimes companies do get a little arrogant when dealing with customers. But if a company does what Palm did - acknowledge the problem quickly, offer to try and fix it ASAP and even offer a temporary band-aid in the meantime, what more are they to do? But of course, I knew that this would happen even before the 650 was released. The 650 would suffer the same fate as every other high end phone the last few years - a few loud people would laser in on one defect/bad design choice and rage about it, making the phone look like a piece of crap when its not. Happens every time.

    By the way, another thing about the SD card. Yeah, it's only 128MB and yeah, it probably only costs Palm about $10 each. But $10 times even a conservative number of 2000 is still $20,000 out of Palm's pocket. That's a lot of phones sold that are being cancelled out. P1 didn't have to do this, but even this gesture is spat upon by some.
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