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  1. pmdied's Avatar
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    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joad
    Treo 650 with effective 14MB internal for people who think $599 is doable, but not $624 or whatever. Basically people qho bought it to show off.

    $699 Treo 650 Pro with minimum 128MB internal memory chip for people who want to use it for what it's built to do. Even leave off the stupid backup flash because anyone who really uses it is charging it anyhow. Pro sells through PalmOne, no issue with carriers and PalmOne make out like bandit.

    As it is now, at least they'll have plenty of stock for refurb units.
    Now you're thinking....Handspring did the same thing with their line of Visors.
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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    But a free $99 BT headset? Go figure that one.
    Wasn't that only for P1 pre-orders? It certainly doesn't or won't apply to every unit the sell.
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
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  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkEagle
    Wasn't that only for P1 pre-orders? It certainly doesn't or won't apply to every unit the sell.
    I believe it was only for pre-orders, but I still it's relevant that they obvious have $100 of margin room (not that they paid $100 for the BT headsets I'm sure) for some small number of headsets, but they don't have $6-25 or whatever amount it is to make it 64MBs.

    I think even if Palm ate the costs of the extra memory completely, they'd be out ahead from the number of extra people buying it due to the fact that it's not so limited in memory.
  4. hub
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    #24  
    Let's face it. The P1 suits had their heads up their butts when they made the decision to stay with 32MB. I would bet that people in marketing and also in development tried to tell them they needed to add more memory, but, of course the suits, who know the least about many things, ignore the people who have the facts. Otherwise, they couldn't keep the myth going that they are better than the people below them.
  5. #25  
    In boston the guy said that during the initial designing he wanted 64mb, but the upgrade to 64mb would have been $8-10, and today would cost around $6/unit.

    Like someone said, that number times the number of first production units = alot of money. The guy in boston also said that the 32mb decision was based on LOTS of consumer surveys.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by maswell
    Like someone said, that number times the number of first production units = alot of money.
    Of course it's lots of money. However, it's also a lot of money to be able to sell another pile of devices.

    In other words it's not like Palm loses $6 million if it puts in an extra $6 in a million devices. The money is at least partially made up by the fact that 1.1 million devices will now be sold instead of the 1 million previously. That extra 100,000 devices at the profit margin should add up to quite a bit. If the margins are just around 16% that makes each device sold a $100 in Palm's pocket. In that case it takes very few extra sales to add up to the $6 million. I'm thinking around 60,000.

    And yes, I'm just making up the number of devices, margins, etc. for sake of example. While the numbers could be off a bit, the principle remains that a little extra cost could spurn more sales and hence more total return.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    Of course it's lots of money. However, it's also a lot of money to be able to sell another pile of devices.

    In other words it's not like Palm loses $6 million if it puts in an extra $6 in a million devices. The money is at least partially made up by the fact that 1.1 million devices will now be sold instead of the 1 million previously. That extra 100,000 devices at the profit margin should add up to quite a bit. If the margins are just around 16% that makes each device sold a $100 in Palm's pocket. In that case it takes very few extra sales to add up to the $6 million. I'm thinking around 60,000.

    And yes, I'm just making up the number of devices, margins, etc. for sake of example. While the numbers could be off a bit, the principle remains that a little extra cost could spurn more sales and hence more total return.
    Obviously I agree with you. I think this is a good example of tech-blind number crunchers shooting your project in the leg.
  8. #28  
    I got the same response at the DC show. So I decided to start asking so of the different software reps about how much mem they use. I was very suprised. Even the P1 employees don't know half of the apps out there exsit. Most of them us email, and phone. You will never max it out that way. That's for sure. I think it is so stupid that our hopes and opinions didn't matter in the whole memory desicion. Even though we begged for it. But, it is also funny in the sense that P1 really screwed up by not listening. I think we both lose in this one. P1's sells WILL suffer and we are not happy. BONE HEADS.
  9. #29  
    ....I think it's a little more involved than just swapping out a memory chip or two in order to increase the memory.

    See this: http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...ad.php?t=63268

    Specifically...http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...08&postcount=7
    --Inspector Gadget

    "Go Go Gadget Pre!!"
    Palm Pre on Sprint

    Palm V--> Palm IIIc--> Visor Prism--> Visor Phone--> Treo 270--> Treo 600--> Treo 650-->
    Treo 700wx--> HTC Touch Diamond--> Palm Pre & HTC EVO 4G.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by smileyboy
    Most of them us email, and phone. You will never max it out that way. That's for sure.
    Umm, yeah you will surely max it out with e-mail. I have maxed out my Treo 600 that way. Of course, I just had to pare down my e-mail and it was fine. The point is that there's a reason why gmail has a gig of storage. Email can take up a lot of space over time.
  11. RobM's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by maswell
    In boston the guy said that during the initial designing he wanted 64mb, but the upgrade to 64mb would have been $8-10, and today would cost around $6/unit.

    Like someone said, that number times the number of first production units = alot of money. The guy in boston also said that the 32mb decision was based on LOTS of consumer surveys.
    I am sure that the assumption of the consumer was that the memory installed would be equivlent. In this case, the memory size is the same, but storage charcteristics are different, which I dont think they took into account.

    rob
  12. #32  
    Anyone know what the memory architecture of the 650 is? Is the memory embedded in the processor or off? I found 2 tidbits of info below from Palminfocenter:

    "The Intel PXA27x processor family will be offered in multiple configurations of clock speeds running from 312 up to 624 MHz, and with as much as 64 megabytes of stacked Intel StrataFlash memory. "

    "The Intel PXA270 processor at 312 MHz has a suggested list price of $32 (USD) in 10,000 unit quantities."

    Is the StrataFlash the same animal as the NAND Flash? The 650 uses the bottom of the barrel 312 mhz processor. Does the 312 mhz processor have lesser amount of StrataFlash? Can someone with access to Intel data sheets look it up?
  13. #33  
    I am with badmojo, I would fedex the $100.00 bucks for 1 gig phone!!
  14. #34  
    Several things on the issue:

    In Chicago, the P1 types knew less about some of the software available for the 600 than I did. They did not know/realize, for example, that with Mapopolis you always need enough memory to move the maps to RAM even if you use an SD card.

    A vendor at the show, who was there trying to sell his product for the 650, was griping about P1 not putting enough memory in the thing. In fact, his product crashed due to "insuffiencent memory" while he was trying to demonstrate it.

    One really lame explination a P1 type said at one point in trying to justify the low memory was that. "Although memory is inexpensive right now, you cant be certain what will happen to the price in the future."

    I brought up reported problems with with T5 memory and they simply said, its a different type of memory and the software companies will have to rewrite some programs. Even though the memory was a big discussion, they never mentioned the 512k issue.

    There are workarounds, and ways to get by without a doubt and this may turn out not to be a big problem for many of their users. But to release a device with LESS available/usable memory than the product it is replacing is simpy embarassing.

    What focus groups. I would like to know. And even if that is the case and some people were not using all there memory, who cares? This is supposed to be a device that you can do new things with. I never ran photoshop on my old 8066 machine, or a 3-D realtime war game either because I couldn't. Once the machines grew, then the programs followed and that let to demand for more machines then more programs and so forth.The 650s memory is a step backwords the like of which I can't think of a similar example.

    Some of the folks at P1 seem to have realized the problem, others know it now. Peter even comes close to admitting that it was a huge screw-up. I would love to have someone spill the beans on how this really happend. Would be a great marketing case study.

    So will this hurt 650 sales. Yes. It already has. I have decided NOT to buy them for my business, thats around 25 units. I will probably get one for myself, since its better than my current 300 and I can use the workarounds. I'm sure there are others as well, and this bad buzz on the web is going to hurt some. Will they still sell a lot of these, im sure they will, but it does put a cloud over what should have been the greatest high end cell phone/smartphone rollout of all time
  15. g.711's Avatar
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    #35  
    Can't they, P1 offer a $50 memory upgrade, they send you a new phone with 128 meg and you send them the old one. Show be easy and they can hit us for a few more bucks. Call it the Treo6128.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by midmofan
    Several things on the issue:


    One really lame explination a P1 type said at one point in trying to justify the low memory was that. "Although memory is inexpensive right now, you cant be certain what will happen to the price in the future."

    And before you ask, yes he REALLY DID say that, lol. It had several of us chuckling after the presentation. Comments like, "well, I know, it will get even cheaper!"
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by maswell
    In boston the guy said that during the initial designing he wanted 64mb, but the upgrade to 64mb would have been $8-10, and today would cost around $6/unit.

    Like someone said, that number times the number of first production units = alot of money. The guy in boston also said that the 32mb decision was based on LOTS of consumer surveys.
    I wonder how much money it costs PalmOne and Sprint to send RMA kits and have so many returned phones that now must be sold as "refurbs" because of this fiasco? Pass THAT figure on to the "bean counters."

    So all the pent-up demand of people who have been using the Treo600 over the past 13-14 months and are aching to upgrade have had the brakes slammed on their exuberance.

    Many CAN'T upgrade into this phone because it has too little memory for them for even the same application/data set they've been using for a year in their Treo 600's. I was so hot for the 650 that I placed orders with a couple sources just to have a few phones around for my friends if it passed muster. After discovering the truth of the memory problem firsthand, I can't wait for the RMA kit to arrive because I'm sick of looking at such a beautiful doorstop, especially when I now have to compare how readable the screen is and how improved the camera has become.

    So instead of an easy $600 sale, Palm gets $0 and Sprint gets $0, and I retain my old 600 and wait for the 650x or whatever.

    Hope that $6 or $8 or whatever savings pays off for you, PalmOne. (There's a sucker born every minute, they say).
    Treo 755s in good condition available on ebay for $50-$75. No need to pay for insurance or buy a Pre.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by g.711
    Can't they, P1 offer a $50 memory upgrade, they send you a new phone with 128 meg and you send them the old one. Show be easy and they can hit us for a few more bucks. Call it the Treo6128.

    Several possible problems:

    It might not even be possible to upgrade the thing as they have it designed without effectivly starting from scratch. I don't know that, but its possible.

    They have thousands of the current weak 650s out there. What to do with them? What to do with ones sent back if there is an upgrade? Even if they can build new ones with more memory, it might not be possible or cost effective to upgrade old ones. What then?

    There are a lot of folks that probably don't need more memory for what they are using the phone for right now. So I think our best hope is that they start working on a "650 plus" that they will only release AFTER they have cleared out the stocks of the 650s they have on hand. Then they can offer a discount to people (as you suggest) who send the old 650s back for the new version. Unlike a recall, stopping to retrofit whats in stock or comming out with a new phone quickly for an immediate return/upgrade program, that method allows them at least to unload what they have on the people who dont care about more memory and who wont send them back in. In other words, they don't spend the extra time, effort and money on those who don't care about the memory anyway while at the same time clearing out the "old" stock. The ones that do get sent back in then, even if it is cost-prohibitive to upgrade them, can be used as refurbs for returns of the "weak 650s" for those who don't care to upgrade.

    As much as I would like other ways of handling the problem, that would seem to be to be the most cost-effective way for P1 to deal with the issue.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by midmofan
    Several things on the issue:

    In Chicago, the P1 types knew less about some of the software available for the 600 than I did. They did not know/realize, for example, that with Mapopolis you always need enough memory to move the maps to RAM even if you use an SD card.
    Having attended user groups for years, I get this vibe from a lot of Palm/One reps, too. Like they have a lot of bright MBA kids fresh out of college that play MP3's and fool around with the things, but would never actually use them for much more than that. Corner a PalmOne rep and try discussing mapping software, PDAnet, attachments, sizes of movie files and pictures, even basic questions about backing up to SD and hotsyncing and chances are good you will get the experience of a blank stare. I'll betcha I can guess the makeup of most of their "extensive focus groups."

    With Jeff Hawkins back at Palm/One, this memory issue should never have been able to be dictated by "the suits." With 128MB chips, the apps would have become even more creative and usable, and hence would have driven higher and higher sales. Instead, these 32MB chips have stunted the growth of an otherwise steller upgrade and the sales (and return) figures will reflect that. Hopefully, Palm will fire a few suits and hire a few more geeks - ones that know that you can (with sufficient internal memory) run very useful mapping programs on their devices.

    This should be a litimus test for anyone at Palm - if you don't know the basics of what you are selling - why are you there?
    Treo 755s in good condition available on ebay for $50-$75. No need to pay for insurance or buy a Pre.
  20. #40  
    Although I didn't read Jeff Hawking's book on intelligence (honestly, who would read a book on intelligence by a guy who makes PDAs versus a Ph.D. in psychology...), I would expect that P1 show signs of intelligent life.

    Isn't it enough to not include WiFi or a 1 MP camera? And we all were pretty sure they wouldn't throw in the same damn camera from the 600. Now there’s this ridiculous memory issue. What the hell was anyone over there thinking?

    And it doesn't look like a single one of them were reading the Treo 600 board over here. Sure, we wanted bluetooth and got it, as well as a higher res screen etc. but I chalk this up as being a coincidence and not due to any concern for their customers. This memory issue is proof of that. I mean, I don't recall reading all over the boards "Help! I never charge my Treo battery and my memory got erased. What is to be done of this?" Who gives a red cent about this "wondie-shmondie" T650 memory anyway? One would expect the owner of a $600 phone would be sure to charge the device when necessary. There are far more pressing matters to address, such having enough memory to store e-mail AND phone contacts.


    All this talk about it now being too costly for palm to offer upgrades, replacements, etc. are a damn shame. But after this insult to the consumer's intelligence, I think its time for palm one to get slapped in the face -by hand one, no doubt.
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