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  1.    #1  
    Please forgive yet another thread on this topic. If it would bother you to read what I have to say, then please feel free to skip this thread. Don't bother to post yet another post about yet another thread. I will skip those myself.

    I have been called a "Drama Queen", an *****, laughable, a kook, and probably some others that never made it to the screen. Oh, I forgot arrogant, harsh, silly, foolish, presumptuous, and the author of a "million posts" on the memory topic. I am sorry if I offended anyone. Many agreed with what I said. Many did not.

    I ask your indulgence in permitting me one more such post.

    I am seeing many posts from happy Treo 650 users, and that is good. I do not want PalmOne to go out of business, unlike our friend SeldomVisitor. I do want them to address their error. More on that later.

    Silverado deserves tremendous praise and thanks, from us and especially from PalmOne. He has singlehandedly found a workable solution to a serious problem. P1 really ought to give him a free Treo, or something equally valuable.

    I want everyone to consider the memory situation in light of the following analogy....

    The 2003 model Toyota Camry had, say, 180 horsepower from it's four cylinder engine. (Please don't hold me to the numbers, it's just a story!) It ran on regular gasoline. Toyota is now selling the 2005 Camry with a V6 engine and a newly redesigned ignition and fuel injection system. It is rated at 175 horsepower, but is supposed to be so smooth and otherwise improved that you don't notice the difference. However, once you get it home from the dealer, you notice the kick of the engine is not quite what you had with the old Camry. Some research reveals that due to the new ignition and injection, Toyota had to measure horsepower with a different system, and the true, EFFECTIVE horsepower on the OLD scale is really closer to 120. You are, shall we say, displeased. Fortunately, Silverado is the master mechanic down at the dealership. He has ingeniously discovered that with a bolt-on turbocharger, costing only another $2000 or so, which is only 10% of the cost of this $20,000 car, and with the use of Premium gas instead of Regular, you can boost your HP back up to 175 or even beyond.

    The memory deficiency does represent a similar situation, but the discrepancy is more blatant. This, I think, is the core of my irritation. 32 MB is 32 MB, except here, it isn't. We are promised a certain amount of memory in the T650, albeit slightly less than that of the T600. But in the T650, the promised amount is effectively not the delivered amount. If, and I emphasize IF, PalmOne knew about this discrepancy up front, it borders on fraud and false advertising. However, I am perfectly willing to chalk it up to a mistake, perhaps a miscommunication between management, marketing, and engineering.

    Silverado's fix is an incredible achievement, although it fixes a problem that should not exist. However, the solution adds cost and at least some complexity that should not have been necessary.

    I'll buffer my earlier statement, the one that seemed to set so many of you on your ears....

    PalmOne has acknowled the memory situation in various emails as an error, a discrepancy, a problem. Many of you on the board are satisfied with Silverado's work-around, but I don't think it lets PalmOne off the hook and it should not be proposed as the real solution to this problem. I respectfully request a public acknowledgment of the situation, and guarantee of a solution. I still think Tuesday, November 23, is a reasonable date for PalmOne simply to declare its intentions. The actual solution should give us a Treo 650 with a proper amount of memory. Given the block-size problem, a proper amount becomes something on the order of 64 MB, and since redevelopment is probably necessary, 128 MB might as well be considered. Given the fiasco at the moment, I believe the price point of the new unit should not rise more than $50. For those who have already taken delivery, I think a rebate of $100 is in order, which will cover the cost of ZLauncher or the equivalent, as well as an adequately-sized SD card; these loyal early-adopters should be given the alternative of trade in to the revamped T650 (T655? T650a?) when (not if) it becomes available. To solve the problem of current inventory, I would suggest selling off any units that remain at $100 discount.

    This solution will restore our faith in PalmOne. The failure to publicly propose a solution quite soon will tell us that none will be forthcoming. I, for one, would be very hesitant to purchase any future PalmOne device under those circumstances.

    I hope this modest proposal will meet with everyone's approval, especially that of the PalmOne executives who must ultimately make it happen.
    http://www.doctordalai.com
  2. #2  
    If you use MSMount to run databases directly from SD card without needing them to be copied to RAM, then memory isn't a problem...
  3. #3  
    Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "Let me control the nation's money and I care not who makes its laws." -****** ******
  4. #4  
    Well said.

    Unfortunately, F1 will never do it.
    Just like they promised, with no intention of delivering, BT or Wi-Fi in the 600.

    The 650 will sell like hotcakes to the sheeple who do not care or will not notice.

    F1 neither has the management saavy, intelligence, nor execution ability to do anything other than take the money and run to the next version.

    F1 is acting just like Apple in the 80's - take you loyal customers and throw them under the bus.

    And what is Apple now? Basically a glorified MP3 hardware maker.
    I doubt F1 will be that successful.

    In this market, you need to be 3 steps ahead...and F1 keeps taking one back each year.

    Nice post, but let's face it, it's over. Not today, or tomorrow, but it's done.
  5. #5  
    I still dont get the F1 thing...

    ... Anyway, a solution is not going to happen.

    This may be the SECOND time that PalmOne / Handspring has done this. Does anyone remember the WiFi/Bluetooth that was to become available for the T600???

    Im still looking for the solution to that one...
  6. alee's Avatar
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    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai Lama
    For those who have already taken delivery, I think a rebate of $100 is in order, which will cover the cost of ZLauncher or the equivalent, as well as an adequately-sized SD card; these loyal early-adopters should be given the alternative of trade in to the revamped T650 (T655? T650a?) when (not if) it becomes available. To solve the problem of current inventory, I would suggest selling off any units that remain at $100 discount.
    Apologies in advance, but this is laughable.

    There is no obligation to buy a Treo 650, and furthermore there is an adequate period to evaluate and, if necessary, return the product. The early adopter assumes certain risks, but if they don't like the product, they can return it. Offering a blanket rebate is just not good business sense.

    You are effectively asking PalmOne to devalue their product and take a loss, and based on what? There is no evidence that there is a problem moving the Treo 650. There is also little evidence that the memory is indeed a barrier to selling the product. It is entirely too early to make any such calls. The media seems to like the product, and unless they go back on what they've said, the Treo 650 is going to sell like gangbusters.

    This is not a product with a "fault", and this is not something that was discovered after the product has been out for 6+ months. You have a choice that is entirely yours... return it or keep it. You're within your return period, and you have discovered a shortcoming. If it doesn't meet your needs, box it up.
  7.    #7  
    I'm going to respond to this genre of post once, and that's it. Please reread what I said above. Let me state it more clearly. Because of the memory issue, the onboard RAM amount is MISREPRESENTED. You are effectively not getting the amount that is promised on the box, in the manual, or anywhere else. Whether the unit is usable as it stands today depends on what you plan to do with it. I'm glad you are happy with yours, Mr. Lee. Many other people are not happy at all. PalmOne has adknowledged that this is a problem in emails posted on other threads. I do not think it is "laughable" in the least to ask them to remedy this situation.
    http://www.doctordalai.com
  8. #8  
    What Albert said.

    That suggestion is so silly.... if the 650 doesn't meet your needs, buy something else. Either the market will support the current 650 or it won't.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

    Treo600 --> Treo650-->PPC6700-->Treo700P-->Treo755P-->Treo800W --> Touch Pro-->Palm Pre --> EVO 4G
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai Lama
    I'm going to respond to this genre of post once, and that's it. Please reread what I said above. Let me state it more clearly. Because of the memory issue, the onboard RAM amount is MISREPRESENTED. You are effectively not getting the amount that is promised on the box, in the manual, or anywhere else. Whether the unit is usable as it stands today depends on what you plan to do with it. I'm glad you are happy with yours, Mr. Lee. Many other people are not happy at all. PalmOne has adknowledged that this is a problem in emails posted on other threads. I do not think it is "laughable" in the least to ask them to remedy this situation.
    This "misrepresentation" has happened with every single palm produced. The ones with 2MB, 8MB, 16MB, etc., never had that 'actual' capacity. There is always loss because of ROM programs, formatting, etc. Also, when you buy an 80 gig hard drive, you aren't truly getting 80 gigs. Sorry, it's a fact of life in the technology industry, so looks like you need to go after every guilty party, not just P1 and it's 650.

    I agree with Albert. If you aren't happy, by all means, get rid of it and find a device that fits your needs.

    The internet sure can cause pandemonium. It's not that bad guys...
  10. alee's Avatar
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    805 Global Posts
    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai Lama
    I'm going to respond to this genre of post once, and that's it. Please reread what I said above. Let me state it more clearly. Because of the memory issue, the onboard RAM amount is MISREPRESENTED. You are effectively not getting the amount that is promised on the box, in the manual, or anywhere else.
    You may as well take your case to the next level and approach Seagate, Western Digital and other hard drive manufacturers as well. When you buy a 120gb hard drive, you also don't get 120gb of space.
    Whether the unit is usable as it stands today depends on what you plan to do with it. I'm glad you are happy with yours, Mr. Lee. Many other people are not happy at all. PalmOne has adknowledged that this is a problem in emails posted on other threads. I do not think it is "laughable" at all to ask them to remedy this situation.
    I don't have a Treo 650 yet, but I do anticipate the chance when I can evaluate it and see if it fits my own needs. I am, however, trying to be realistic.

    The only "problem" here is that PalmOne hasn't met the needs of power users by not supplying enough RAM. Folks here on TreoCentral represent the power user crowd, and will always be pushing the limits of what the manufacturer expects their average user to do. It's the same on every message board... there are the regular users, and the enthusiasts. The enthusiasts are always the loudest faction, even if they represent less than 5% of the total sales.

    PalmOne does have a responsibility to better educate the consumer so that people don't wonder what happened when they restored their Treo 600 data. However, it really ends there.

    Nobody wants to hear they are not included in their favorite company's target users. However, as an enthusiast and a power user, I'm ready to accept that the Treo 650 will not meet my every expectation. Whether it suits my needs at all is yet to be seen, but if it doesn't, it's no big deal. PalmOne loses my sale, and that's that.
  11. #11  
    Dalai Lama,

    If you don't like Treo 650, don't buy it. If you already have it, return it and get your money. All these $100 rebate/discount nonsense only makes you sound like, excuse my French, a *****. You have been compalining all weekend about how unuseable and useless the new Treo 650 is because of the new memory system, and now, for a meager $100, you are willing to change you stance!!! Have some back bone!!!

    There are many other posts here on TC that prove for 99% of Treo 650 customers, the memory is most likely not an issue. (How many have 10,000+ contacts?) And for the remaining 1%, there are already possible solutions like zlauncher.

    As for your horsepower analogy, it is inadequate as well. What if this new Toyota Camry's new engine is a hybrid, instead of a traditional gasoline one?? And buying a smartphone based purely on hardware specs is as stupid as buying a car based solely on horsepower alone. The Ford Taurus probably has more horsepower than the Toyota Camry, but you don't see many people saying that Taurus is a better car than the Camry, do you?
  12.    #12  
    Sigh. OK, one last clarification. We are all well aware of the fact that a 100 GB hard drive doesn't really offer you 100 GB of usable space. However, if I buy one from Seagate, or Western Digital, or Quantum, or Hitachi, or IBM, I expect to get at least roughly the same amount of usable drive space. Because of the block issue, the quoted memory of the Treo 650 is EFFECTIVELY less than expected, based on the experience with the Treo 600. It should have been slightly less than that of the 600; in practice, it is considerably less. There was no reason to believe that a different measuring stick had to be used with the 650 than with the 600.
    http://www.doctordalai.com
  13. #13  
    OK, this thread was not intended to solicit a flame war or comments defending P1. It seems that the real message of the thread gets lost in the opportunity to be contrary.

    I have my new Treo. I have space in my memory, but I agree that this problem has been acknowledged by Palm and we should not have to find ways to make a product work. Yes, we can find another phone or PDA, BUT THATS NOT the purpose of this thread.

    We need Palm to hear it's customers who have valid concerns and opinions. So, would those of you that seem to want to debate the purpose of this thread, please find another............maybe create one entitled, I just want to argue or something.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    Well said.

    Unfortunately, F1 will never do it.
    Just like they promised, with no intention of delivering, BT or Wi-Fi in the 600.

    The 650 will sell like hotcakes to the sheeple who do not care or will not notice.

    F1 neither has the management saavy, intelligence, nor execution ability to do anything other than take the money and run to the next version.

    F1 is acting just like Apple in the 80's - take you loyal customers and throw them under the bus.

    And what is Apple now? Basically a glorified MP3 hardware maker.
    I doubt F1 will be that successful.

    In this market, you need to be 3 steps ahead...and F1 keeps taking one back each year.

    Nice post, but let's face it, it's over. Not today, or tomorrow, but it's done.
    I hope you are joking; because the independent analytical ability and common business sense was so lacking in your post, I can't believe that anyone would write the above post as a serious piece.
  15.    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    Dalai Lama,
    ... All these $100 rebate/discount nonsense only makes you sound like, excuse my French, a *****. You have been compalining all weekend about how unuseable and useless the new Treo 650 is because of the new memory system, and now, for a meager $100, you are willing to change you stance!!! Have some back bone!!!
    Gee, a new title to add to my collection. Thanks.

    For what it's worth, I haven't posted since yesterday afternoon, but if you wish to fill in those intervening 30 hours with your perception of my rants, please feel free.

    It seems that I am harsh and arrogant if I propose a severe solution, such as recall, and a "*****" if I propose something reasonable. Would requesting $200 make me more of a *****, or less of one, or simply a higher class version?

    The theme of several of these posts seems to be that I am, um, silly to expect PalmOne to do anything, when Peter Skillman's own email suggested that a "fix" is in the works. I really don't understand your antipathy toward this. Either PalmOne will do something, or they won't. If I want to post my ideas for a solution, I will do so. Why it bothers you guys so much I will never understand. If I don't like the T650, I won't buy it. It takes the same passive effort for you to skip my posts. Please feel free to do so.
    http://www.doctordalai.com
  16. #16  
    Well, you have to give this one to Dalai Lama. His point is not that a product was considered that did not meet his needs. His point here is that he made a purchase decision based on the representation from P1 that the product had approximatly the same memory capability as the 600. Since new limitations based on the memory allocation units were not alluded to in any way - including the 3 hour roadshow presentations Dalai's accusation is well grounded. P1 has represented the device to be as capable as the 600 memory wise as the change in the chunk size was never revealed. I attended the Long Beach event, and asked a few questions about memory personally. Clearly capacity is not just a raw number but also an implication of usability.

    P1 people are the first to point out that 32 MB on a palm OS device can often lead to more capability than 64 MB on a PPC device. Because of the effeciency of the Palm OS. Now we are faced with a memory allocation scheme that uses memory less effectively than on the 600 hence the capability is less. This should have been pointed out. Not doing so is according to Dalai Lama a "misrepresentation" and I think that he has a valid point.

    If this misrepresentation was in advertant (palm was ignorant of the issue) than they should step up, and provide a remedy.

    Any other complaints about wi-fi bluetooth etc are not part of this discussion, but the memory cluster size is clearly a "bug" or problem that needs to be addressed.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai Lama
    I'm going to respond to this genre of post once, and that's it. Please reread what I said above. Let me state it more clearly. Because of the memory issue, the onboard RAM amount is MISREPRESENTED. You are effectively not getting the amount that is promised on the box, in the manual, or anywhere else. Whether the unit is usable as it stands today depends on what you plan to do with it. I'm glad you are happy with yours, Mr. Lee. Many other people are not happy at all. PalmOne has adknowledged that this is a problem in emails posted on other threads. I do not think it is "laughable" in the least to ask them to remedy this situation.
    You know what? I am going to sue Microsoft unless they give me a $200 rebate. Bill Gates has promised me a virus-free OS for years, and all they have done so far is to ask me to download more patches week after week. Windows is broken and we have a fiasco here. Windows get bigger and more resource hungry every year, and the price keeps going up. I remeber that the original MS DOS cost less than $40, and now a copy of XP Pro cost me $200!!!! And to add insult to injury, during all these time, PC hardware price has dropped from $5000 to less than $1000!!!

    Microsoft must be doing some thing illegal to get away with sh*t like this. Oh, isn't Microsoft a convicted monopoly???
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by ericshmerick
    This "misrepresentation" has happened with every single palm produced. The ones with 2MB, 8MB, 16MB, etc., never had that 'actual' capacity. There is always loss because of ROM programs, formatting, etc. Also, when you buy an 80 gig hard drive, you aren't truly getting 80 gigs. Sorry, it's a fact of life in the technology industry, so looks like you need to go after every guilty party, not just P1 and it's 650.
    This misrepresentation hasn't happened in any previous Palm product except for the T5. Those are the first two to use this new chunking system which results in the same program taking up the same amount of memory. What it comes down to is that 32 (23 usable) on the Treo 600 is not the same as 32 (23 usable) on the Treo 650 and there's nothing on the box to tell you that. That's misrepresentation. With the hard drive, things have been that way for a long, long time. The rules of hard drives didn't suddenly just change on everyone like the rules of memory on Palm devices did. That makes the two cases entirely different.

    Now Albert Lee is right that everyone can simply return the product. Everyone has the choice and wouldn't be any worse off than if they hadn't ever bought the product.

    As to giving everyone $100 back, I think Palm is doing that to some degree. The thing is that it's not in cash, it's in the form of BT headset. So PalmOne could give you the $100 off, but then they'd probably just turn around and not give you the headset. A lot of people would consider it a plus because they might not need a BT headset, but the overall value would put you back to where you started. Or to put it another way, sell the BT headset, and buy Zlauncher and a good SD card.

    Good car analogy, it just doesn't account for the fact that you can always trade your Camry back in and get an Accord or other option that doesn't change the horsepower rules on you.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai Lama
    It takes the same passive effort for you to skip my posts. Please feel free to do so.
    Likewise.....
  20. #20  
    my post was dead serious.

    I can back it up with concrete examples.

    as far as business and common sense, I wi' be glad to take you to task on that as well, and let the TC community.

    Lama, ignore the tardanic responses from the synaptically challenged folks.. Some sheeple don't get it, although I agree F1 will never do anything.
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