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  1. #81  
    Since I'm GSM, I don't have a 650 yet. I've tried to keep up with these memory issues, and here's a question I haven't seen answered yet: Does this memory situation mean that companies like Palmgear and Handango, which currently list program sizes when you go to buy, might have to have a 650 (and T5?) size, and a size for everyone else?

    Sometimes its these program sizes that determine whether or not I try (or buy), and the answer to the above seems like a resaonable way to determine the extent of this problem.
  2. #82  
    I talked to Greg and other P1 people at the DC show about the small mount of memory.

    He explained the thought/decision process that controlled what they upgraded or improved upon, and what they scrimped on or omitted.

    Marketing gave them a target cost price at which to deliver this 650.

    They had to adjust every hardware choice within that zero sum budget.

    If for example upgrading the screen cost X dollars -- that would leave fewer dollars available for other features and hardware.

    The equation was always what will this cost, times 300,000 --

    Will the market accept the incremental cost of that hardware -- and will the presence or absence of that hardware make a significant difference in the number of devices that we will sell.

    You (and I) may disagree with choices that were made (i.e. wifi) -- but I understand their decision process.

    (when I earlier broached the memory and wifi issues with lower level P1 staffers, they urged me to raise it again with the senior level folks.)
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I talked to Greg and other P1 people at the DC show about the small mount of memory.

    He explained the thought/decision process that controlled what they upgraded or improved upon, and what they scrimped on or omitted.

    Marketing gave them a target cost price at which to deliver this 650.

    They had to adjust every hardware choice within that zero sum budget.

    If for example upgrading the screen cost X dollars -- that would leave fewer dollars available for other features and hardware.

    The equation was always what will this cost, times 300,000 --

    Will the market accept the incremental cost of that hardware -- and will the presence or absence of that hardware make a significant difference in the number of devices that we will sell.

    You (and I) may disagree with choices that were made (i.e. wifi) -- but I understand their decision process.

    (when I earlier broached the memory and wifi issues with lower level P1 staffers, they urged me to raise it again with the senior level folks.)

    But marketing also wants a working device, and no negative publicity.

    Target price of $600....and you're telling me they couldn't spend $5 more for memory (if that)?

    I would've taken a lower speed processor (more expensive).

    I think there is a lot more to it than this...marketing did not tell them to change the file system.
  4.    #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    I think there is a lot more to it than this...marketing did not tell them to change the file system.
    And therein lies the problem. I think the beancounters and marketing types all assumed or were misled into thinking that 32 MB was 32 MB. On the T650, it isn't, at least in reference to the T600. As I said up front, we can chalk it up to a really bad miscommunication. PalmOne still has to deal with it.
    http://www.doctordalai.com
  5. #85  
    Isnt the file system inherent to PalmOS 5.4.x?
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai Lama
    And therein lies the problem. I think the beancounters and marketing types all assumed or were misled into thinking that 32 MB was 32 MB. On the T650, it isn't, at least in reference to the T600. As I said up front, we can chalk it up to a really bad miscommunication. PalmOne still has to deal with it.

    I chalk it up to major incompetence, but to each his own.
  7. #87  
    MikeC, please see my replies below:

    "Fact: F1 bought Handspring (and Hawking) back after it was clear F1 was headed down the tube. F1 ruled the PDA market, only to give it away over the years through too many model, too little innovation, and poor execution."

    Fact: Palm bought Handspring, not PalmOne. Palmone is the new combined compmany after the merger of Handspring and the old Palm Hardware group. So there was no P1 till after the merger. And it was Handspring that was going down the tube fast, not P1.


    "I'm not saying everyone there is dumb, etc. I'm just saying those running it and making the decisions are poor business men/women. And they have had many chances."

    Your wrote in your original piece "F1 neither has the management saavy, intelligence, nor execution ability to do anything other than take the money and run to the next version." So if someone tells you that you lack "intelligence", what does that mean? It certainly doesn't mean that you are smart, does it?


    "As for the company that left the PDA market, see Sony. Maybe they were smart to give up on F1; hurt F1 more than it hurts Sony."

    hurt P1 more than Sony???? I think you are confusing Palmone with Palmsource here. Get your facts straight. Sony's departure from the PDA market has actually helped P1 so far.


    "Fact: Apple disenfranchised all the Apple II owners, who had help build and promote the company with the initial Mac. Then Scully came in in the late 80's, and put out dozens of model at premium prices, and they used proprietary hardware that was obsolete in 9 months. Maybe today PCs are cheap enough, but back then, they wanted you had to buy a new Apple every year. We won't even go into the clones issue, where Apple showed once again how they handle competition.

    Yea, I'd say we were thrown under the bus."

    So what's our point? Treo is hardly a premium-priced device among high-end smartphone. In fact, I think Treo is actually cheaper than the PPC6601.


    "And yes, they are a MP3 maker, like it or not. Sure, they have pretty computers, but it will always be niche among the cultists."

    I never say they were not MP3 players. I asked you: "what is wrong with being a glorified MP3 player maker? And "Do you have to to a computer maker to be considered a business success?" Please answer these questions.


    "And yes, they lost the OS to Microsoft because they kept the Mac closed. End of story."

    That was my point exactly. Thank you! Apple lost because of closed OS, not because they "threw their royal customers under the bus."


    "Chew on that for a while..."

    I did, and it tasted like sour grapes.....

    And drop the F1 nonsense....it makes you look less credible.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    MikeC, please see my replies below:

    "Fact: F1 bought Handspring (and Hawking) back after it was clear F1 was headed down the tube. F1 ruled the PDA market, only to give it away over the years through too many model, too little innovation, and poor execution."

    Fact: Palm bought Handspring, not PalmOne. Palmone is the new combined compmany after the merger of Handspring and the old Palm Hardware group. So there was no P1 till after the merger. And it was Handspring that was going down the tube fast, not P1.


    "I'm not saying everyone there is dumb, etc. I'm just saying those running it and making the decisions are poor business men/women. And they have had many chances."

    Your wrote in your original piece "F1 neither has the management saavy, intelligence, nor execution ability to do anything other than take the money and run to the next version." So if someone tells you that you lack "intelligence", what does that mean? It certainly doesn't mean that you are smart, does it?


    "As for the company that left the PDA market, see Sony. Maybe they were smart to give up on F1; hurt F1 more than it hurts Sony."

    hurt P1 more than Sony???? I think you are confusing Palmone with Palmsource here. Get your facts straight. Sony's departure from the PDA market has actually helped P1 so far.


    "Fact: Apple disenfranchised all the Apple II owners, who had help build and promote the company with the initial Mac. Then Scully came in in the late 80's, and put out dozens of model at premium prices, and they used proprietary hardware that was obsolete in 9 months. Maybe today PCs are cheap enough, but back then, they wanted you had to buy a new Apple every year. We won't even go into the clones issue, where Apple showed once again how they handle competition.

    Yea, I'd say we were thrown under the bus."

    So what's our point? Treo is hardly a premium-priced device among high-end smartphone. In fact, I think Treo is actually cheaper than the PPC6601.


    "And yes, they are a MP3 maker, like it or not. Sure, they have pretty computers, but it will always be niche among the cultists."

    I never say they were not MP3 players. I asked you: "what is wrong with being a glorified MP3 player maker? And "Do you have to to a computer maker to be considered a business success?" Please answer these questions.


    "And yes, they lost the OS to Microsoft because they kept the Mac closed. End of story."

    That was my point exactly. Thank you! Apple lost because of closed OS, not because they "threw their royal customers under the bus."


    "Chew on that for a while..."

    I did, and it tasted like sour grapes.....

    And drop the F1 nonsense....it makes you look less credible.

    Okay Romeo,

    In response to point 1: Palm, PalmOne, whatever, they are all the same to me. I know Palm is the hardware company that bought HS, and PalmOne is the software side. Regardless, they are both pathetic, so I lump them together, although F1 is more tuned to Palm.

    In response to point 2: I'm not sure why there is a reading problem here, but to clarify - the original quote, and subsequent post stand - the people running F1 lack intelligence (business) relative to the market; botched products, quality control issues that are atrocious, and goofed releases are just a start.

    Rewind the clock back to the mid 90's and go from there. Instead of dominating the market, they are stuggling like crackwhore looking for the next fix.

    In response to point 3: My facts are just fine thank you. As I said in point 1, I lump the Palms together. And anything that hurts PalmOne hurts Palm, period.

    In repsonse to point 4: My point about being thrown under the bus is that F1 is acting just like Apple. And you do pay a premium for the Treo. You want to compare to PPC/6601? Well, for $50 more (retail), at least you get enough memory to run apps and store contacts...

    In response to point 5: Do you really need this spelled out? Here's what's wrong with being a MP3 player maker - ITS A COMMODITY, which is the antithesis of the Apple brand. Tough to sustain that business model unless you are geared for that.

    And, of course, you do not need to be in the "computer business" to be successful. MGWAFNN.

    In reponse to point 6: The two points are not incompatible. It started with throwing customers under the bus on more than one instance. Keeping it closed was part of it.

    In response to point 7: As for what you chewed on, I think it was something else, but you seem to like the taste.

    In repsonse to point 8: F1 and ....
  9. #89  
    If creating a great smartphone (as HS and now PalmOne have done, see mainstream reviews) please, by all means, go make one. I'll be the first in line if you succeed. Forgive me if I go buy a 650 as a hedge though.
  10. #90  
    Anyone else see the comedy in someone complaining about (among other things) the speed/agility of a device and then claiming it's made by F-1?
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    If creating a great smartphone (as HS and now PalmOne have done, see mainstream reviews) please, by all means, go make one. I'll be the first in line if you succeed. Forgive me if I go buy a 650 as a hedge though.
    I think you give too much credit to P1. Their next smartphone will truly demonstrate their abilities. The 650 just leverages too much of HS work and innovation to truly demonstrate what P1 can do.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by carter437
    I think you give too much credit to P1. Their next smartphone will truly demonstrate their abilities. The 650 just leverages too much of HS work and innovation to truly demonstrate what P1 can do.
    That's perhaps true. While they can throw some really cool things together (Zire 71) they can also leave you scratching your head (T|5).
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    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    Anyone else see the comedy in someone complaining about (among other things) the speed/agility of a device and then claiming it's made by F-1?
    LOL, this is the only image F-1 brings to mind for me

    http://staff.pop3now.com/alee/fest/f1.jpg
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by Albert C. Lee
    LOL, this is the only image F-1 brings to mind for me

    http://staff.pop3now.com/alee/fest/f1.jpg
    Yep, what a POS that thing is! I wouldn't want anything that cool!
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    Okay Romeo,

    In response to point 1: Palm, PalmOne, whatever, they are all the same to me. I know Palm is the hardware company that bought HS, and PalmOne is the software side. Regardless, they are both pathetic, so I lump them together, although F1 is more tuned to Palm.

    In response to point 2: I'm not sure why there is a reading problem here, but to clarify - the original quote, and subsequent post stand - the people running F1 lack intelligence (business) relative to the market; botched products, quality control issues that are atrocious, and goofed releases are just a start.

    Rewind the clock back to the mid 90's and go from there. Instead of dominating the market, they are stuggling like crackwhore looking for the next fix.

    In response to point 3: My facts are just fine thank you. As I said in point 1, I lump the Palms together. And anything that hurts PalmOne hurts Palm, period.

    In repsonse to point 4: My point about being thrown under the bus is that F1 is acting just like Apple. And you do pay a premium for the Treo. You want to compare to PPC/6601? Well, for $50 more (retail), at least you get enough memory to run apps and store contacts...

    In response to point 5: Do you really need this spelled out? Here's what's wrong with being a MP3 player maker - ITS A COMMODITY, which is the antithesis of the Apple brand. Tough to sustain that business model unless you are geared for that.

    And, of course, you do not need to be in the "computer business" to be successful. MGWAFNN.

    In reponse to point 6: The two points are not incompatible. It started with throwing customers under the bus on more than one instance. Keeping it closed was part of it.

    In response to point 7: As for what you chewed on, I think it was something else, but you seem to like the taste.

    In repsonse to point 8: F1 and ....

    MikeC, again, there are so many factual and analyical errors in your reply that I simply don't have time to address them all. I will pick out a couple for now:

    "In response to point 1: Palm, PalmOne, whatever, they are all the same to me. I know Palm is the hardware company that bought HS, and PalmOne is the software side. Regardless, they are both pathetic, so I lump them together, although F1 is more tuned to Palm."

    All the same???? Hardly. Palmone is the hardware company, and Palmsource is the Software/OS company. Palmone is more like Dell, while Palmsource is more like Microsoft. Is Microsoft the same as Dell? I don't think so.


    "In response to point 5: Do you really need this spelled out? Here's what's wrong with being a MP3 player maker - ITS A COMMODITY, which is the antithesis of the Apple brand. Tough to sustain that business model unless you are geared for that.

    And, of course, you do not need to be in the "computer business" to be successful. MGWAFNN."

    And PC is not a commodity business? Where have you been? Anyhow, I don't think digital music players are commodities anyway. There are more than a dozen MP3 players out there, and guess what, iPods outsell them all combined! Seen Apple's stock price lately? This little commodity business has accounted for most it stock price run-up this year.


    Know your facts before you take on anybody so that you won't get embarrassed.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    MikeC, again, there are so many factual and analyical errors in your reply that I simply don't have time to address them all. I will pick out a couple for now:

    "In response to point 1: Palm, PalmOne, whatever, they are all the same to me. I know Palm is the hardware company that bought HS, and PalmOne is the software side. Regardless, they are both pathetic, so I lump them together, although F1 is more tuned to Palm."

    All the same???? Hardly. Palmone is the hardware company, and Palmsource is the Software/OS company. Palmone is more like Dell, while Palmsource is more like Microsoft. Is Microsoft the same as Dell? I don't think so.


    "In response to point 5: Do you really need this spelled out? Here's what's wrong with being a MP3 player maker - ITS A COMMODITY, which is the antithesis of the Apple brand. Tough to sustain that business model unless you are geared for that.

    And, of course, you do not need to be in the "computer business" to be successful. MGWAFNN."

    And PC is not a commodity business? Where have you been? Anyhow, I don't think digital music players are commodities anyway. There are more than a dozen MP3 players out there, and guess what, iPods outsell them all combined! Seen Apple's stock price lately? This little commodity business has accounted for most it stock price run-up this year.


    Know your facts before you take on anybody so that you won't get embarrassed.
    Romeo, Romeo, where for art thou? Your crack pipe runneth over.

    No one is taking you on, nor is anyone embarrassed.

    And once again, my facts are just fine.

    In repsonse to your quote: "there are so many factual and analyical errors in your reply that I simply don't have time to address them all."

    This phrase is uttered by people who are full of it when faced with the truth. Either respond in full, or not at all, but leave the cop-outs to 6 years olds with their hand in the cookies jar.

    In response to: "Palmone is more like Dell, while Palmsource is more like Microsoft."

    I have to thank you - I haven't laughed so hard all day. Most people here would disagree mightily.

    Dell is essentially a service company that sells PCs and consumer electronics. They have proven they can execute effectively. Comparing F1 to Dell is like comparing finding a prize in a Crackerjack Box to winning the Powerball Lottery.

    Microsoft is a software company and, some would say, and entertainment company. PalmSource is a one-trick pony that can't even get a substantailly new OS out the door in seven years. Say what you will about M$, but they have done quite a bit over the last seven years, on a platform that is infinitely more complex. Comparing PalmSource to Microsoft is like comparing a paper airplane to a Boeing 777.

    F1 has NOTHING without PalmHorse's OS.
    PalmHorse's major customer is....F1.

    Doesn't get much more obvious.

    In response to: "and the PC is not a commodity business?".
    Yes, it is. (I never said it wasn't; not sure why the panties got bunch on this one).
    Differentiation is done by either service (Dell), or style (Sony), and the rest are in between (HewPaq, Toshiba, etc).

    So what about the Ipod? Yes, it's a huge seller. (hell, I have one; I think it's really iTunes which is the winner, but I will stay on topic). But for how long?

    Industry convergence will push this out. Yes, Apple will make money near-term, but so did F1 before they imploded. And Apple's stock value is still below what it was 4 years ago.

    So there ya go...more for you to chew on...
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    Romeo, Romeo, where for art thou? Your crack pipe runneth over.

    No one is taking you on, nor is anyone embarrassed.

    And once again, my facts are just fine.

    In repsonse to your quote: "there are so many factual and analyical errors in your reply that I simply don't have time to address them all."

    This phrase is uttered by people who are full of it when faced with the truth. Either respond in full, or not at all, but leave the cop-outs to 6 years olds with their hand in the cookies jar.

    In response to: "Palmone is more like Dell, while Palmsource is more like Microsoft."

    I have to thank you - I haven't laughed so hard all day. Most people here would disagree mightily.

    Dell is essentially a service company that sells PCs and consumer electronics. They have proven they can execute effectively. Comparing F1 to Dell is like comparing finding a prize in a Crackerjack Box to winning the Powerball Lottery.

    Microsoft is a software company and, some would say, and entertainment company. PalmSource is a one-trick pony that can't even get a substantailly new OS out the door in seven years. Say what you will about M$, but they have done quite a bit over the last seven years, on a platform that is infinitely more complex. Comparing PalmSource to Microsoft is like comparing a paper airplane to a Boeing 777.

    F1 has NOTHING without PalmHorse's OS.
    PalmHorse's major customer is....F1.

    Doesn't get much more obvious.

    In response to: "and the PC is not a commodity business?".
    Yes, it is. (I never said it wasn't; not sure why the panties got bunch on this one).
    Differentiation is done by either service (Dell), or style (Sony), and the rest are in between (HewPaq, Toshiba, etc).

    So what about the Ipod? Yes, it's a huge seller. (hell, I have one; I think it's really iTunes which is the winner, but I will stay on topic). But for how long?

    Industry convergence will push this out. Yes, Apple will make money near-term, but so did F1 before they imploded. And Apple's stock value is still below what it was 4 years ago.

    So there ya go...more for you to chew on...
    Why the F. do you keep calling PalmOne F1? HELLO!! P1=PalmOne F1=Fk One?

    Al
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by acajigas
    Why the F. do you keep calling PalmOne F1? HELLO!! P1=PalmOne F1=Fk One?

    Al
    Apparently he thinks if he says it enough, this will catch on and the world will be slightly richer in the "juvenile insults" column.
  19. #99  
    What did Silverado do? Could you please explain to me what he fixed.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by acajigas
    Why the F. do you keep calling PalmOne F1? HELLO!! P1=PalmOne F1=Fk One?

    Al

    I call it as I see fit. And if you can't figure out why, well, ces't la vie.

    You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to...
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