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  1.    #1  
    I haven't seen anyone mention this. So I thought I would... attempt to inject a bit of reality into the discussion.

    The Treo650 is the FIRST treo from P1. Not the NEXT treo from handspring... the benefits of owning the Treo650 are/will be that P1 is using their larger, more powerful vendor relationships to increase build quality and generally make the Treo a viable piece of equipoment. I have LOVED my treo600 and have pre-oredered from P1... Even the Name says it plainly..."650"

    If Handspring still existed they wouldn't have made a "650" they would have made the "700". And it MIGHT have had wifi and more (volatile) memory, but the screen wouldn't have been centered in the damn phone. And the silly connector would have still been... silly. If you want a 2nd generation Treo wait a year. By then P1 will have enough experience with the platform to take the next big step. The 650 is just P1 making what the 600 WOULD have been if they had made it to begin with.
  2. #2  
    Good point. Now just ship the damn thing to me.
  3. #3  
    true, and it is a BIG step forward from the T|W
    La Vie En Diaspora: Enfin, une émission qui raconte votre vie aux Etats-Unis

    Treo 600 in December '03, Treo 650 in February '05, HTC TyTN Pro in August '06, and back to Treo 750 in January '07, find me at MyTreo.net

    About me: story of the 100thMonkey
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by mattTarr
    I haven't seen anyone mention this. So I thought I would... attempt to inject a bit of reality into the discussion.

    The Treo650 is the FIRST treo from P1. Not the NEXT treo from handspring... the benefits of owning the Treo650 are/will be that P1 is using their larger, more powerful vendor relationships to increase build quality and generally make the Treo a viable piece of equipoment. I have LOVED my treo600 and have pre-oredered from P1... Even the Name says it plainly..."650"

    If Handspring still existed they wouldn't have made a "650" they would have made the "700". And it MIGHT have had wifi and more (volatile) memory, but the screen wouldn't have been centered in the damn phone. And the silly connector would have still been... silly. If you want a 2nd generation Treo wait a year. By then P1 will have enough experience with the platform to take the next big step. The 650 is just P1 making what the 600 WOULD have been if they had made it to begin with.

    Good Point. I was thinking along these lines also. To me P1 has not proven what it can do since the 650 is largely riding the coat tails of HS. Next year we will see what P1 is capable of. The T5 doesn't inspire much confidence however nor does Palmsource. In the 90's a cute tap & launch OS was fine but as the memory and processor speeds exceed what was on most computers in the early 90's the need for mulitmedia,multitasking, networking etc are becoming more important and frankly expected.
  5. #5  
    The way the Palm OS handles files and memory is just pathetic. I cannot believe people have to download software to move applications and their data to an SD card. Just pathetic...
  6. #6  
    Hmmm, my Treo 600 says PalmOne on it. I'm going to go ahead and count that as a PalmOne product. And yes, I've had Handspring products since Visor Pro including the 300 and 600 (with the Handspring logo on it).

    In large part PalmOne with respect to the Treo is still Handspring. It's the same employees and the same people making the same decisions about the device. It's not like Palm bought the company gutted it and then completely redesigned the phone as their own.
  7. #7  
    Reality? That's patently false, and even if it wasn't, I don't follow the logic. And yes, my last two T600s had the P1 badge, cosmetic change or not, they assimilated it.

    Palm absorbed Handspring, which was already the progeny of PalmSource (Hawkins and Dubinsky took a team from PS to found Handspring). The two companies were VERY similar in mission, culture, and market. Now that PalmOne has acquired Handspring, it has kept the Handspring team and infrastructure largely intact as their smartphone line of business.

    I am not a PalmOne insider, so perhaps one out there can elaborate further.

    So, the excuse that you have to forgive Palm for the hiccups is a bit, well, unsanitary.

    Even then, it has been a year since the last Treo refresh. There is simply no excuse in the current market to wait longer than that for a refresh. Incremental refreshes occur on 6 month cycles in most electronics (case in point, Apple Powerbooks, iPod, Digital Cameras, and even other Cell Phone manufacturers). Full refreshes rarely go over a year.

    Their target demographic (techie and/or executive) tends to demand newer technology quicker-to-market (just browse TC and you'll see people clamoring!).

    The aforementioned two points not withstanding, you have to admit Handspring/P1 dropped the ball on WiFi and BT in the 600 (remember the 3rd party cards will support it promise? Ha, and you wonder why I don't trust corporations 'til I see the goods?). That left a lot to be desired out of the next refresh (our current 650), so these shortcomings we are seeing are just fodder for a fire that is already lit for a lot of us.

    I was so fed up with PalmOne/Handspring's build quality (5 T600s in 12 months), lack of BT/WiFi, and SD issues that I went and got an Audiovox 5600 I LOVE until I can decide that the T650 is bug-free enough for me to drop $600 on (the 5600 only set me back $120, $70 once I get my rebate, PalmOne, take note).

    So here's the bottom line, PalmOne is a day late and a buck short on the 650 in my mind. Intrinsically, it's a good/acceptable product, but put in the context of the product line's history and the HOT HOT marketplace around it, and I think PalmOne needs to shape up. There is NO ROOM FOR ERROR in this market, especially when your primary buyer as tough a mistress as the TC crowd.

    I'm not saying P1 is dead or the 650 is a flop, it is a good product that will probably turn a buck or two, but a few implications are:

    1) It won't stymie the rise of Windows Mobile (shudder, I don't like WM on concept, really). If you haven't looked at the new WM hardware, be afraid, they're at least competitive. Strategically and tactically speaking, this needs to be priority ONE for P1.

    2) If P1 continues in this direction (not paying great attention to user/customer experience and needs), they will become less relevant. This just compounds issue #1. I *HATE* MS (I am typing this on my Powerbook running Mac OS X and Linux), but they are gaining mind and market share with their new WM platform, especially in Europe.


    Quote Originally Posted by mattTarr
    I haven't seen anyone mention this. So I thought I would... attempt to inject a bit of reality into the discussion.

    The Treo650 is the FIRST treo from P1. Not the NEXT treo from handspring... the benefits of owning the Treo650 are/will be that P1 is using their larger, more powerful vendor relationships to increase build quality and generally make the Treo a viable piece of equipoment. I have LOVED my treo600 and have pre-oredered from P1... Even the Name says it plainly..."650"

    If Handspring still existed they wouldn't have made a "650" they would have made the "700". And it MIGHT have had wifi and more (volatile) memory, but the screen wouldn't have been centered in the damn phone. And the silly connector would have still been... silly. If you want a 2nd generation Treo wait a year. By then P1 will have enough experience with the platform to take the next big step. The 650 is just P1 making what the 600 WOULD have been if they had made it to begin with.
    Last edited by bmustaf; 11/21/2004 at 04:41 PM.
  8. #8  
    If the 650 is just a 600 from P1 .. shouldn't they
    have cleaned up all the problems, and shouldn't
    it cost less?

    Instead they've added problems, and the cost is
    higher (relatively speaking).

    P1 is offing themselves .. they are irrelevant and
    should go out of business if they cannot deliver
    great products at lower prices.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    Hmmm, my Treo 600 says PalmOne on it. I'm going to go ahead and count that as a PalmOne product. And yes, I've had Handspring products since Visor Pro including the 300 and 600 (with the Handspring logo on it).

    In large part PalmOne with respect to the Treo is still Handspring. It's the same employees and the same people making the same decisions about the device. It's not like Palm bought the company gutted it and then completely redesigned the phone as their own.
    The memory issue is related to the write performance (or lackoff) of the NAND memory, requiring the caching of relatively large fixed 512byte segements. The NAND memory implimentation requires reads/writes to be done on sector boundries. This requires "padding" records to the 512byte segment boundry. The behavior is also applicable to the T5.

    Okay, so what does this mean to the user?

    This is a DB issue only, and has no affect on executables. Moving them to the storage card cirmcumvents the problem by freeing up memory. Nothing more. Applications that use large data records (or relatively few "short" records will not have the problem (or it will at least be minimized) as the large records (</= 512) would be cached effectivley . I would think that applications developers could redesign their DB files to accomadate this eventually. I have a feeling that many of them were probably blindsided by this architectual change as the NAND issues are not something they would normally deal with when the app and its associated database were being designed.

    Unfortunely it doesn't look like the ROM PIM app DBs where ever redesigned to handle this (thus the reports of very large DB size increases with Contacts, Calender etc). Changing this isn't going to to be easy or quick. You're looking at changes to the legacy record layouts, and it isn't going to be pretty.

    I'm not going to get into a long detailed discussion of the T5/T650 embedded architecture here but let's just say that if you (in the generic sense) are knowlegeable in the applicable Engineering concepts, the answers are out there.

    Oh...btw, did PalmOne know about this? I would find it unfathomable that they did not know about this issue before the product left QA, let alone beta. Unfortunely, at that point the hardware design was locked, and there was little they could do, short of a major redesign, to mitigate the impact.

    NAND and NVRAM are nice buzzwords for the Marketing folks to throw around, but there are design issues, that if not dealt with, can bite you in the (pick a body part).

    Disclaimer: I do not work for PalmOne, PalmSource, or any associated company. As such the above was pieced together from non confidential information which is freely available. Also, the above is an "educated guess". If any developer would like to chime in, be my guest!
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by mattTarr
    I haven't seen anyone mention this. So I thought I would... attempt to inject a bit of reality into the discussion.

    If Handspring still existed they wouldn't have made a "650" they would have made the "700". And it MIGHT have had wifi and more (volatile) memory, but the screen wouldn't have been centered in the damn phone. And the silly connector would have still been... silly. If you want a 2nd generation Treo wait a year. By then P1 will have enough experience with the platform to take the next big step. The 650 is just P1 making what the 600 WOULD have been if they had made it to begin with.
    Actually, handspring would have made a 660, or 720, or such. Treo model numbers were always divisible by 3 before P1 took over. And, personally, I would have rather had more memory than non-volatile (I don't find backing it up onerous). I've never found the screen centering to be an issue (talk about looking for things to criticize), and keeping the same connector would mean all my accessories would continue to work.

    All things considered, I think we would have been better off it H/S still made the Treo.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonnerd
    ... I would think that applications developers could redesign their DB files to accomadate this eventually. I have a feeling that many of them were probably blindsided by this architectual change as the NAND issues are not something they would normally deal with when the app and its associated database were being designed.
    Application developers now must do more work to make up for the dveices inadequecies? This would not be necessary if the memory issue was taken care of before being put to market.

    Saying that the app developers have to redesign is like saying if you make a mistake, somehow I have to fix it. Well, thats not exceptable to me.
    ~ ScandaLous ~
  12. #12  
    No, Palm can fix this in the operating system if they wanted to. They don't have to force the developers to work around it, and probably shouldn't.

    They were trying to avoid the speed hit that would happen if they didn't stay on the 512-byte boundaries. If they used some smaller number they would have to read in the 512-byte sector, update the changed portion, and write all of it back. They avoided the extra read by not doing that.

    I don't know how much of a speed hit it would cost, but it looks like they made the wrong choice. They need to change it. Some background caching could reduce the speed hit a little.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    ... personally, I would have rather had more memory than non-volatile (I don't find backing it up onerous)...All things considered, I think we would have been better off it H/S still made the Treo.
    It's not the backing up but the replacable battery that is the issue. That is why the battery was sealed into the other models. Take it out, you lose (data).

    Yep HS was good in it's day. I remember my first problem with my first HS (remember the days of old blue?). I dropped it and broke the screen. I called, when the phone answered it was a real person who worked for HS and knew her stuff! Like that will ever happen agian.They just sent me a new one, no questions. But warned me that if it happened twice the second replacement would cost. My wife still uses hers, amazing.

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