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  1. #21  
    I don't think P1 will give you a week to make your payments to buy T650. A new product with all the hype and those road shows. I think they knew all about memory issues.
    Nothing major is going to happen untill T 700.Take it or leave it.....
  2. #22  
    I'll give them some time to resolve the issue because I have not choice BUT you can't tell me that they did not know about this issue. This did not just pop up over night.

    What about the Flash ROM problem and being slow for simple tasks? Are they fixing that too?
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    ...Mozilla Firefox...
    I use Firefox now pretty much exclusively but have yet to make it my "default" browser due to the number of crashes when visiting sites that may be specifically set up for some advanced Internet Explorer version. Most recently, I was looking for the first "exercise song" I used back when I was ... well ... in a lower elementary-school grade - The Chicken Fat Song ( - wanted to show 1st grade kidlet what ==I== did during PE...):

    -- http://www.clubcourtyard.com/ChickenFat.html

    Strangely, I found it with NO PROBLEM - The 'Net is a pretty amazing info-source (we're talking something like 40+ years ago is when I exercised to it!) - but on visiting the web site I chose to visit to get it the Quicktime plugin for Firefox crashed when the song "passed" the point at which the download of the song was progressing (that is, started playing shortly after visiting site, but the song "caught up" to the download and then, rather than simply waiting til it had some more to play, crashed the browser). Internet Explorer had no such problem.

    In addition, while browsing THIS web site I tend to visit a forum (like this one) then right-click on all the messages I want to read and allow them to load in "tabs" while I read whatever's available. On CLOSING those tabs after reading, though, I've noticed a couple times that the content that goes away is NOT what was theoretically under the particular tab being closed. Haven't yet confirmed that totally but it's apparently happened a few times so I'm getting suspicious about it.

    So there are still issues with Firefox that are preventing me from setting my default to it though I do use it almost exclusively.

    (has anyone tried to do a MSoft Update from a Firefox browser? Hmmmm...I'll have to see if THAT works!)
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by cfx
    How i would solve the memory issue if i were P1:
    1. official announcement in 2 weeks (so the have time to look into th matter) that there will be a software fix in mid january.
    2. official announcement in 2 weeks that there will be a upgraded Treo 650 with 128MB to will cost 100$ more than the 32MB version. At the same time the wifi drivers will be ready
    3. official announcement in 2 weeks, that everybody who ordered a treo 650 prior to the official announcement will get the upgraded treo for free if they return their 32MB version.
    You know, P1 is not stupid. They knew all along that 32 MB was insufficient. So, they merely released it as such, at $600. They really wanted to get more money from this phone, but they knew the competition pricing was not that high.

    Solution: Release 32MB phone, then act like you never knew it would be an issue. However, you already have a secret supply of "upgrade" phones and memory chips. In addition, you can raise another $100 for these "upgrades" that only cost you about $15. Hmmm, appear to have egg on your face, but then release the upgrade, apologize...and rake in the money.

    This was all planned. Don't let P1 fool you.
  5. #25  
    I'm not sure if they knew about the memory utilization problem or not. But I'm pretty sure I remember a chat thread with them where they said that they did a survey and decided it wasn't worth while to up the memory past 32MB because most users weren't cramped for space on the current 32MB model (Treo 600).

    I'm sure this survey is pretty acurate seeing as to how so many users are NOT power users. It actually amazes me that some people will spend that kind of money on a device just to be internet, email, phone and camera. But apparently it's true. I used to see them all the time when I would show off my Treo 600.

    Since P1 apparently was all too happy to abandon all the power users to save the money it would have taken to get more memory in the phone and please the other 80% (or whatever it is) of us, I doubt they'll lose any sleep over this issue.

    I think the most they'll do is offer a model with more memory sometime early next year. Free trade in? I doubt it. If they had a new model within a month of the 650 release they would almost be required to offer a trade in of some sort. (Because so many would just return it for a full refund and then buy the new unit.) But I don't see them redesigning the unit and getting it in production in a month's time. Actually I think early next year is a little too optimistic. How long before the 650 release did we hear rumors about it? 6 months?

    Anyway. I think those of us who are waiting for a fix, will be waiting for the 3rd party developers to update their programs or possibly waiting for someone to develop a program that eases the pain a little. Maybe by allowing us to run all the programs from the SD card or somethig to that effect. I don't think P1 (or PalmSource?) could patch this if they wanted to.

    I'm actually considering refusing shipment on mine before it ever gets in the house on Monday. I don't think I can resist at least giving it a try, but it seems like everytime I turn around there's another program I like that won't work with the 650. If it weren't that the T5 has the same problem then I might have more hope. But considering that the T5 is having the same problems and neither P1 or the developers have been able to patch them yet, it's obviously not a problem that gets fixed over night.

    I hope I'm wrong, but if I'm not then lets hope someone comes up with a work around and FAST!

    --TechDude
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    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    I probably haven't spent three hours OUTSIDE of a wifi zone in about a week. I'd say that I've been in a wifi area about 98.5% of time in that span.
    are u sure because i think its closer to 99.2%
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by mbrenner
    They only found about this on Friday. Weather they should have found this in beta testing or not, is not an issue for us at this time
    I think it's at the heart of the issue.

    It was obvious a year ago to most Treo600 owners that 23MB of available internal memory was just not enough to make much use of these devices, especially in light of all the functions it performs which REQUIRE internal memory (email, messaging, contact databases, moviemaking, picturesm sound files....).

    So we gave HS/PalmOne well over a year, put up with several replacement phones and the accompanying loss of service, and what did PalmOne supply?

    A phone with substantially LESS memory than even the year-old 600, while claiming it has the 'same' memory (or 1MB less).

    If PalmOne had no clue about this until Friday as you say, then they won't be in business very long. It's been painfully obvious to anyone who uses one very long, so what clowns tested these and said less memory than the old model works just fine? Hope they didn't pay them, because they seem to have been mesmerized by the bluetooth and screen and apparently never loaded a few tcp/ip applications.

    I'll give PalmOne all the years they need to fix the memory problem. My Treo 600 is now stable and still under extended warranty. Maybe this is the wake-up call that PalmOne has needed: your biggest promoters will walk away from your product when it can't even handle what last year's flawed model could do. And if they had no clue before Friday this was destined to happen because of this decision, I'm surprised that anyone at PalmOne can find their way to work everyday. Is this the special olympics? 'good try, Jimmy'?? No, it's a $650.99 top-of-the-line upgrade to the Treo600, they crippled it to hold less data, must have had one or two people who actually use the 600 test it thoroughly, then sell it to an unsuspecting public as having the 'same' memory as the 600.

    Hire better beta testers (and listen to them) or die, PalmOne.
    Treo 755s in good condition available on ebay for $50-$75. No need to pay for insurance or buy a Pre.
  8. #28  
    Why do we have to give them so much time to make a public statement? It sounds to me that PalmOne wants something more like forget about it and live with it kind of thing. All we are asking is to make an official announcement saying the what/why/how/when/where of the solution for the memory issue. Seriously the Treo 650 should be RECALLED before it spreads to more people and then becomes more expensive for PalmOne to come out with a fix.
    Putting more memory or fixing the new file system is not an upgrade that should be solve in the next Treo, IT IS a DESIGN FAILURE that should be fixed NOW!

    Don't stop complaining Treo Folks, let them hear your voices LOUD and CLEAR.

    Al
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Nguyen
    Man I still dunno why some people gripe about the lack of WiFi on a MOBILE PHONE.

    The longest I'm ever at a WiFi hotspot is probably 39 seconds if my bus is stopped at one for that long.
    The Treo is not a MOBILE PHONE, Donald. It is supposed to be a SMART PHONE. No one would expect wi-fi in a MOBILE PHONE, but to leave it out of a SMART PHONE is plain *****.
    <edited by rb>
    Last edited by ronbo2000; 11/21/2004 at 11:22 AM.
  10. #30  
    To further back up my previous post...

    I sorted the member list by posts and only 676 members have more than 100 posts. I'm not saying anyone who hasn't hit 100 posts is not a power user, but the majority of the people who have posted in THIS thread alone have over 100 or 200 post. (I count 6 who have less than that) So I think 100 is a good number to count you in as a power user. (aka someone who is hungry for new apps and ways to use their Treo)

    I think that TC is probably one of the most popular forums for Treo users and most other forums probably share their members with TC. So lets say that there are 1,000 ACTIVE power users just for a good round number to play with.

    PalmOne is on it's way to HALF A MILLION in sales on the Treo 600. That's 500,000 users. That means that our group of power users is only a 5th of a percent of their sales. (Assuming there are 1,000 power users among us)

    Obviously there are a lot of power users who simply aren't active members of online communities. I'm not trying to compare this with a big study done by market analysts or whatever. But even if the numbers are WAY off it will still take 5,000 users to make 1% of their sales. And even then, do you really have a voice? What percentage of unhappy customers do you think it would take for PalmOne to really do anything? 5%? That's 25,000 users. Come on now. I can't even think of 3 people that I personally know who rival my commitment to following the bleading edge of technology and care about things at the level of "sectors taken up by a file".

    So as I said... do we really have a voice? Or are we just that one kid in the class room that all the teachers would rather just didn't come back the next day?

    --TechDude
  11. #31  
    Techdude
    Agree with you on most what you just stated.
    You did not count several people who browse these forums casually without actively partcipating in them. I have done that for a number of PDA's .An average Joe would spend out time in researching on internet before chilling out 600 Plus $$$$, unless you are one of those who will walk in a phone store and buy a device based on the rep,who tells you memory is not a major issue.
    If the memory issue is highlighted as great weakness , most will give it a second thought.That 's where we will impact P1.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by mbrenner
    To all of the people who want a solution to the 650 memory utilization issue:

    Clearly the acceptance of this product is important to the company. The Buzz about this product is important to its acceptance and will be reflected in the trades as well as the financial markets.

    So P1 has an incentive to fix this if the products future is salvageable. Salvagable is a physical as well as marketing issue. I think that users and forums like TC have made the point to P1 that there is a problem. They only found about this on Friday. Weather they should have found this in beta testing or not, is not an issue for us at this time. I am sure that they will get some "power user" types to bang on future devices after this mishap.

    If we continue to turn these forums and other public places into a "gripe-fest" about the 650 and p1, we may well cause the premature demise of the product line, before allowing p1 to to offer a fix (let alone develop a software patch or even consider a hardware modification to the product and trade out of the relively low number of units already in the channel).

    I respectfully suggest that we all chill and give them a chance to address this. A work week is enough time to allow them to release an official statement promising a fix (for existing unit owners and units in the channel). A number of weeks or more develop one and start implementation is certainly resonable. This promise will reasure current and future purchasers that p1 will stand behind the 650 and the financial markets will remain supportive of P1 accordingly. If this confidence is broken by our community by trashing the 650 and P1 before P1 has a chance to act, then the dammage is done and there will be no incentive for P1 to fix the product, because it would have been written off already.

    Most of us are here because the 650 was a product that we wanted, and we want to serve us well. That end is best served by allowing P1 to support the product and us.
    FYI. With the treo600 they released it in september 03. They didn't release a patch until May 04. THATS 8 MONTHS!!

    I wouldn't expect anything soon.
  13. #33  
    Another thing:

    Don't expect ANY annoucement for months. Thats right... MONTHS. There is no way they will release any statement that will reduce the sales of this phone. They already know that the Treo600 was full of problems, last thing they need todo is tell the UPGRADERS that the new one is full of problems too.

    People upgrading are buying a promise. This promise will not be fullfilled, and they will never let anyone know about that unless forcefully brought out (like magazine reviews etc... and THEN and only THEN will they release a statement).

    Just my opinion.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    Techdude
    Agree with you on most what you just stated.
    You did not count several people who browse these forums casually without actively partcipating in them. I have done that for a number of PDA's .An average Joe would spend out time in researching on internet before chilling out 600 Plus $$$$, unless you are one of those who will walk in a phone store and buy a device based on the rep,who tells you memory is not a major issue.
    If the memory issue is highlighted as great weakness , most will give it a second thought.That 's where we will impact P1.
    No I didn't include that number, but I personally did that on the Treo 300 and got such mixed reviews from different forums that I decided to go back to the general reviews from cnet and the likes. Those reviews are generally based on specs of the device, INCLUDED software, and a very small testing period in which this problem probably won't surface.

    I'm not saying all hope is lost. I just don't think PalmOne will deliver the final solution to our problems. I just hope whoever does it, does it right.

    --TechDude
  15. #35  
    Well put, except I disagree to an extent.

    Working for a large MNC (one of the largest tech companies in the world), and having spent a lot of time in QA, Test, and Customer Sat I have found that the ONLY thing that keeps companies on their toes to fix problems (and prevent them from happening in the next cycle) is the prospect and actual OCCURANCE of LOSING clients.

    The second you disarm the Treo community by saying "Blindly Support P1", they have no incentive to "do the right thing", or at least no incentive to do it in an expedient manner.

    Moreover, companies (and people) really only act on what they are measured on. If the post-mortem analysis of this issue by P1 shows that 1) they didn't lose clients to other platforms 2) their clients weren't absolutely UP IN ARMS, I can GUARANTEE you they will NOT expend resources to 1) fix this issue and worse, 2) will not PROACTIVELY fix processes going forward.

    It's about cost benefit, at the end of the day, if they don't feel the hurt, they won't react. Some might have a more benevolent and optimistic view of corporations than myself, but I think expecting a corporation to do ANYTHING that doesn't pad their bottom line is misguided.

    Think I'm an off-base cynic? Dumping PCBs into the Hudson is a PRPRPR $nightmare$, $not$ $to$ $mention$ $unethical$, $doesn$'$t$ $stop$ $GE$ $from$ $doing$ $it$ ($because$ $it$'$s$ $cheap$). $Outsourcing$ $jobs$ $overseas$ $hurts$ $long$-$term$ $product$ $quality$ ($even$ $short$-$term$ $as$ $I$ $have$ $seen$!) $and$ $is$ $political$ $suicide$, $but$ $why$ $do$ $corporations$ $continue$ $to$ $do$ $it$? $Easy$, $cash$-$money$.

    I think the idea that "if we trash the Treo 650, P1 will lose hope and take their ball and go home" is absurd. Perhaps that is how 12 year olds on the soccer field react, but that is precisely what motivates corporations. Some argue that it will dishearten them, I argue the exact opposite, that it is the ONLY motivation and ONLY check and balance consumers have on a corporation that has PROVEN TIME AND AGAIN that they are not responsive to their client's needs.

    They need to face the music, they are a premium product provider at a premium price point in a market of increasing commoditization. There is no room for error to begin with in the premium product segment, let alone a market that is being challenged by cheaper products.

    I have defered my 650 purchase and bought a $120 Audiovox SMT 5600 as a stop gap (could no longer live sans BT). It does everything the T650 can, smaller form factor (friggin TINY), just sans keyboard (going to get a Bluetooth KB anyway). Just one example of the dynamics of the market I think P1 is misreading.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmustaf
    Well put, except I disagree to an extent.

    Working for a large MNC (one of the largest tech companies in the world), and having spent a lot of time in QA, Test, and Customer Sat I have found that the ONLY thing that keeps companies on their toes to fix problems (and prevent them from happening in the next cycle) is the prospect and actual OCCURANCE of LOSING clients.

    The second you disarm the Treo community by saying "Blindly Support P1", they have no incentive to "do the right thing", or at least no incentive to do it in an expedient manner.

    Moreover, companies (and people) really only act on what they are measured on. If the post-mortem analysis of this issue by P1 shows that 1) they didn't lose clients to other platforms 2) their clients weren't absolutely UP IN ARMS, I can GUARANTEE you they will NOT expend resources to 1) fix this issue and worse, 2) will not PROACTIVELY fix processes going forward.

    It's about cost benefit, at the end of the day, if they don't feel the hurt, they won't react. Some might have a more benevolent and optimistic view of corporations than myself, but I think expecting a corporation to do ANYTHING that doesn't pad their bottom line is misguided.

    Think I'm an off-base cynic? Dumping PCBs into the Hudson is a PRPRPR $nightmare$, $not$ $to$ $mention$ $unethical$, $doesn$'$t$ $stop$ $GE$ $from$ $doing$ $it$ ($because$ $it$'$s$ $cheap$). $Outsourcing$ $jobs$ $overseas$ $hurts$ $long$-$term$ $product$ $quality$ ($even$ $short$-$term$ $as$ $I$ $have$ $seen$!) $and$ $is$ $political$ $suicide$, $but$ $why$ $do$ $corporations$ $continue$ $to$ $do$ $it$? $Easy$, $cash$-$money$.

    I think the idea that "if we trash the Treo 650, P1 will lose hope and take their ball and go home" is absurd. Perhaps that is how 12 year olds on the soccer field react, but that is precisely what motivates corporations. Some argue that it will dishearten them, I argue the exact opposite, that it is the ONLY motivation and ONLY check and balance consumers have on a corporation that has PROVEN TIME AND AGAIN that they are not responsive to their client's needs.
    What he said
  17. #37  
    Also, does this remind anyone of the absurd notion floating around post 9/11? Something like "Let's put our differences with the President aside [even if they are serious moral objections to bad foreign policy] and just support him in this time of conflict"?

    Extreme example, I know. Quite extreme, but I couldn't help but feel some tangential connection.

    Before the flames begin, read the above statement again.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by SeldomVisitor
    Or seen the news about that Nokia VoIP phone that uses IPv6?

    -- http://www.forbes.com/technology/fee...ahoo&referrer=

    Or read the standards-based docs on Mobile IPv6 at http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/mip6-charter.html ?
    Big problem is that IPv6 is not supported on the current Internet natively and has to be tunneled using IPv4. I have been hearing about IPv6 since 99 and nothing has come from it. Sure it is available on the newest routers and OS's, and you can use it on private networks, but it useless right now on the Internet, making it no better/different than NATing when you transition from public to private network, but a lot more complicated. Implementing IPv6 worldwide would require most of the Internet routers to be replaced, or upgraded. That isn't going to happen until their is enough of a demand. It will be quite some time before you can go IPv6 end-to-end when switching between two providers, or traversing a public network.
  19. #39  
    I also agree that companies don't react until it hurts them. However, it is not just immediate sales that matter. In my company's annual report, the value of the company's assets are listed. One of the big chunks of asset is a line item called "Good Will". It is truly non-trivial. It represents the ability of the company to do business again with its previous customers. If Palm doesn't fix this issue, they would lose both sales and Good Will, the only question is how much.

    Will a fix be made? From what I've read of their reaction to date, I lean towards yes, despite the history. I remember the issue with the T3 eating SD cards and P1 reacted to that in a couple of months. Hopefully, they'll do the same here.

    What would a fix look like? IMO, it is exceedingly unlikely to be a hardware fix, as in a set of bigger memory chips. Much more likely a ROM patch. Others have indicated that this could be difficult since the 512 byte sector size is related to the Disk-on-Chip hardware they're using. That may be, but I imagine it would still be possible to implement a logical sector size of, say, 64 bytes. Each group of 8 logical sectors would make up a physical sector of 512 bytes. A new OS layer would have to be built to implement the logical-to-physical sector handling, but that might be quite feasible.

    With this layer in place, there would still be a diminishing of memory from what the 600 provides, but it would be much, much less pronounced. For example, those a68k files that used to take up 84 bytes but now take up 2560 bytes, would take up 512 bytes (one sector) with the logical 64 byte sector layer in place.

    How long to do this? A couple of months, I'd guess.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by farzonalmaneih
    People upgrading are buying a promise. This promise will not be fullfilled, and they will never let anyone know about that unless forcefully brought out (like magazine reviews etc... and THEN and only THEN will they release a statement).
    People who buy this phone expecting the memory issues to be addressed are extremely foolish.

    Does anyone not remember the "Wi-Fi / Bluetooth cards available by 3rd party providers???"
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