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  1.    #1  
    Ok, I have now confirmed that yes, the reason the T5 is so slow is that
    their revised DM Patch DOES put the PalmSource database in Flash Rom. It is
    cached into Ram, but when the database is opened or closed, everything has
    to be copied into the much slower Flash Rom - hence the performance hit. And
    even simple requests for records end up going to Flash Rom - thereby
    impacting performance. It also explains the bug that I have seen whereby you
    can get a:

    VFSDBCache.c, Line:6761, DeleteRecord() called on invalid record

    I was puzzled as to who was calling VFS since the DatebookDB database
    appears to be in RAM, but it apparently ends up calling VFS routines that
    access the internal flash drive, and there's obviously some bug whereby the
    DM Patch gets confused and messes up the record number for deletion.

    At this point, it looks like the T5 may not be a good choice for those Palm
    Users who have an interest in running any third party software that accesses
    the standard PalmSource databases.

    If you like the general form factor, you would probably be much better off
    with a Sony Th-55 and a 1gb Memory stick for around the same price.

    I am of course revisiting the whole issue of supporting these undocumented,
    proprietary databases that PalmOne now seems determined on using, but this
    is not a trivial undertaking as it would require that support be added for
    all four proprietary databases - something that would require a parallel
    development effort and separate versions of the software. I have ordered a
    T5 (another $400 only to look at device bugs<g>) and will know more when I
    see this device in person.

    I am disappointed that PalmOne is not only going against the philosophy of
    the Palm OS being an open platform by using proprietary databases, but that
    they also seem to think that providing support for third party applications
    (at least as good as older devices provided ) in this "compatibility mode"
    is no longer much of a priority either...

    Cheers!
    CESD, Pimlico Software, Inc.
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    > Anyone having a problem with their T5.

    You and everyone who has bought one

    > I had to get the update for
    > the T5 because it would have Fatal Errors each time I would use
    > DateBk5. But after the update I still have a problem with it locking-
    > up after I put an appointment down in the calendar.

    That's because the update does nothing to fix any of the bugs in the PalmOne
    DataManager patch. Just hold on some 24 hours or so as I will be posting a
    maintenance release VERY SHORTLY that talks directly to the proprietary
    calendar and memo databases thereby sidestepping their DataManager patch
    (several people have been testing this for me and all of them indicate it
    eliminates all these problems on the T5 and also provides far better
    performance on the Tungsten T3, E, and Zire72/31).

    With the T5, the Datamanager patch has moved IMHO from a designation of
    "kludge" to "worthless kludge" - it's basically unusable - not only because
    the performance is so bad, but because it was inadequately tested and has
    too many bugs to be considered a usable piece of software.

    Among the very obvious problems when you try and use DateBk5 on a Tungsten
    T5 (or forthcoming Treo650) are:

    1) Slow exit out of DateBk5 (One time, I clocked it at over 35 seconds!!).
    2) Details dialog can take several seconds to appear
    3) strange clicking noises and delays when executing simple functions
    4) Unexpected crashes including ones with the message:

    VFSBCache.c,line:6761 DeleteRecord()called and invalid record

    The T5 is a nice looking device and has some nice features, but the testing
    was poor and this is by far the buggiest device that we've ever seen from a
    Palm licensee. I suspect there is a VERY good reason why PalmOne has
    announced the Treo650 (which uses the same architecture) but no carriers
    have started to make it available for sale(!).

    I have to say that in ten minutes of testing after I got this device, I
    noted FOUR very obvious bugs, which leaves me at a loss to explain how a
    device like this could be released with such obvious errors - it does make
    you wonder if anyone even looked at this device before it was put up for
    sale...

    Finally, while I may "Fix" DateBk5, this will not "fix" any other third
    party apps that use the built-in, standard Palmsource databases. So if you
    depend upon a third party addressbook app or memo app, or something like
    ToDO+, etc. you may well want to forgo the T5 (and the forthcoming Treo650)
    as your experience will no doubt leave a bad taste in your mouth.



    Cheers!
    CESD, Pimlico Software, Inc.
    ==========================================
  2. #2  
    Yikes...that's bad news. However I think the title of this thread should be "NVFS is a disaster" and not PalmOS 5.4...
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  3. Iceman6's Avatar
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    #3  
    Pretty scary stuff. "Disaster" is right!
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Yikes...that's bad news. However I think the title of this thread should be "NVFS is a disaster" and not PalmOS 5.4...
    < changed >
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Yikes...that's bad news. However I think the title of this thread should be "NVFS is a disaster" and not PalmOS 5.4...

    Gfunk...

    Before I package up my 650 and ship it back, Do you know if a flash upgrade is even possible? I do realize its unlikely that they would release it, I just wonder if its possible. If so, I could see them releasing one coupled with some other change later on.

    Thanks, your imput would be appreciated.
  6. Iceman6's Avatar
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    #6  
    No question it's possible. And yes they WILL release it. They can get by with "slow". They can't get by with a DataManager processor that "has too many bugs and cannot be considered a usable piece of software". The question is how soon. The worst thing they can do is to rush another patch out the door before it's been thoroughly tested.
  7. dwman's Avatar
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    #7  
    CESD, will you have a fix for the 650 coming down the pipe soon or should we not even bother with the Datebk5 650 upgrade yet?
  8. #8  
    other than the T5, are there other devices out there w/ the non-volitive (sp?) memory?

    Obviously seems like the biggest complaint by far on the 650 is the memory issues. Not just that there is only approx 23MB of usable memory, but how the allocation of that memory is executed. Also, from what I've read, the active transfer of memory from RAM to flash slows down the operation when a programs "asks" for information.

    So, obviously, there are drawbacks to the nvfs memory. I would have to guess, that the allocation of memory in 512kb chunks has something to do w/ the nvfs system (just a guess from a non-technical guy, but I have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express before)

    Sounds like the T5 has some of these issues also, but w/ significantly more memory, the simple storage shortcomings aren't as evident immediatly, though the other ramifications and incompatibilities are evident. Some of that will be worked out with application updates/modifications etc, but not all.

    But are there other devices with this type of memory, or is Palm the first manufacturer that is using this in handheld or similar devices?
  9. #9  
    It looks like we are getting the word out:
    According to 1src.com this is what they have to say:

    Slashdot is featuring a discussion about the Treo 650. "It turns out PalmOne's new Treo 650 is shipping with a major problem that's causing first adopter users and developers to cancel their orders in droves."

    http://www.1src.com/?m=show&id=656

    http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/21/1632209

    Al
  10. #10  
    Oh schiznit!

    Slashdotted!
  11. #11  
    not so sure 1-5 people are defined as "droves"
  12. #12  
    I have my 650 and have no complaints on the memory scenario. I dont use datebk5; I can see why the developer is upset if it makes it harder for him/her to produce a product. That is a matter of working with palmOne and palm source at a developer level. NVFS is somewhat similar to the effect of adding a hard drive to a RAM based file system - you have to expect some differences to account for the added bonus of non-volatility. I don't want to beg my own question here but I do wonder how many people were truly bothered by the volatility. However I recognise that removing the battery to swap it does require something like nonvolatile memory or you have big problems on your hands from a design perspective.

    Here is a worked example:
    I have about 1200 records in my contacts; that is higher than average IMO. On my 600 this take up 170k. On the 650 the same DB takes up 700k. That works out to approx 130bytes per record for the 600 and on the 650 550bytes per record.
    If I had a humungous Contacts DB of say 3000 records, I would use 1.6MB of space.

    Similarly I have a 600k Calendar DB on my 650. There are 1000 records in my date book. I rarely purge anything. That means each of those records is approx 550bytes too.

    Bottom line: I am getting some bloat on the core personal information databases but it is still very manageable. If I was a mega-power user, I might be concerned.

    I moved a few of my apps to the SD card just to keep a buffer of free space in RAM of about 5Mb. Other than that I had a clear and clean upgrade from a Sprint 600 to a Sprint 650. Make what you will of the reality rather than the scaremongering.
  13. wig
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    #13  
    mwomwom

    the issue in the public's eye is that the sizing is goofy (512 blocks etc).. the BIGGER issue this thread is discussing is the speed problems of using the DM. You see during loading of an app, the data is loaded from nonvolotile mem to flash and executed from flash. This is what causes a pause (at best a pause).

    For an example of this, type a number on your treo 650, hit send. 1 second to dialing. Now go into your call list, select a number and hit call... 5 seconds.

    Also, how long before the backlight comes on when you hit the end/send buttons? How long after that does it take for the hit center button to unlock message? These are all seconds, or fractions of seconds - but they all add up to a frustrating UI experience. For those of us that have been palm users for years and even gen 1 treo users, we're used a certain method of interaction and we're not getting that, instead we're stumbling. Usually when I unlock, I hit the center button 2-3 times because I'm always ahead of the machine.

    This DM issue should be P1 and PalmOne.

    WIG
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by craigdts
    not so sure 1-5 people are defined as "droves"
    Funny how some folks seem to think every Treo user on the planet is a member of this forum.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by mwomwom
    I have my 650 and have no complaints on the memory scenario. I dont use datebk5; I can see why the developer is upset if it makes it harder for him/her to produce a product. That is a matter of working with palmOne and palm source at a developer level. NVFS is somewhat similar to the effect of adding a hard drive to a RAM based file system - you have to expect some differences to account for the added bonus of non-volatility. I don't want to beg my own question here but I do wonder how many people were truly bothered by the volatility. However I recognise that removing the battery to swap it does require something like nonvolatile memory or you have big problems on your hands from a design perspective.

    Here is a worked example:
    I have about 1200 records in my contacts; that is higher than average IMO. On my 600 this take up 170k. On the 650 the same DB takes up 700k. That works out to approx 130bytes per record for the 600 and on the 650 550bytes per record.
    If I had a humungous Contacts DB of say 3000 records, I would use 1.6MB of space.

    Similarly I have a 600k Calendar DB on my 650. There are 1000 records in my date book. I rarely purge anything. That means each of those records is approx 550bytes too.

    Bottom line: I am getting some bloat on the core personal information databases but it is still very manageable. If I was a mega-power user, I might be concerned.

    I moved a few of my apps to the SD card just to keep a buffer of free space in RAM of about 5Mb. Other than that I had a clear and clean upgrade from a Sprint 600 to a Sprint 650. Make what you will of the reality rather than the scaremongering.

    Your are absolutely right, all this is doable, but why should we have to compromise???
    We purchased the product in good faith and I believe have expections of getting like value for our monies.
    Someone said in another thread somewhere on this board, that by accepting these conditions from PalmOne we are encouraging mediocrity and I for one don't think we deserve that, Lord only knows the pains we all went thru with the 600. I am on my 6th and finally it is working beautifully.
    I miss the screen of the 650, I miss the keyboard of the 650 and when PalmOne fixes the problem(s) I will be 1st in line to buy it! Only my $.02

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