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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    Actually, this is one of the things P1 has said that I just don't buy. The first 2 Palm devices I owned had removable batteries without flash memory. There are a couple of ways to do it. Those first Palms had a storage capacitor that would power the RAM for a minute or two. Given the amount of memory in the Treo, a capacitor probably wouldn't do it, but a small flat "coin" battery could easily power the RAM for the minute or so it takes even a klutz to change a battery. This is a pretty common way to store settings on digital cameras, camcorders, etc.

    I'm sorry but I completely disagree. Can you imagine an executive trying to change the battery on his/her Treo only to find out they weren't fast enough to do it within the "1 minute" time-frame and as a result lose all their mission critical info?!! Sorry, using a capacity may have a great solution for the old Palm III, but it is a good solution for a $600 smartphone. The most important thing in a convergence device like this is the safety of the data, and you just don't risk it to a 5 cent capaciter. Also, the whole point of NVFS is that it will save you data even if you don't touch the smartphone for a very long time. For example, what if you put the 650 in your desk and come back a couple months later. On the Treo 600, the battey would drain and you lose all your data. Not so on the Treo 650 b/c of the NVFS.

    I personally have NO problem with the NVFS on the Treo 650. In fact, I think it is a wonderful enhancement that only makes the device more powerful. The real problem is not with NVFS, but with the AMOUNT of ram that PalmOne used in the 650!!! If Palmone was going to use NVFS Nand in the Treo 650, then they should have supplied a bare minimum greater than 32 MB (23 accessible) to offset the loss of capacity due to the way NVFS allocates 512 kb per sector. We just need more!!!

    Another thing to note about NVFS and the way PalmOne designed the storage heap is to see the future implications! Checkout the following quote from Red Mercury's excellent explanation of NVFS:

    Two things to note about this – one is that in future devices, the device used for storage need not be NAND flash (though it probably will be for the foreseeable future) – it could just as easily be a hard drive.
    http://www.red-mercury.com/nvfs.html

    That would be pretty cool imo!
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



    Please don't PM me about my avatar. For more info go here.

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  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by anastrophe
    my first hotsync bailed because it apparently ran out of memory. so i went into my backup folder and tossed the dozen or so largest third party apps that i had that were of limited value to me. that's all it needed. i think they amounted to about three or four megs of T650 memory in all.

    third party apps that are working just fine:

    Today
    Blocks
    VFS cardspeed
    Convert (very, very old palm app)
    Directory Assistant (tho 5way doesn't work)
    Dopewars (!)
    Filecaddy
    Graffiti Anywhere
    isilo
    LEDOff
    Mahjongg+
    Mergic Ping
    Neko (must have!)
    PalmVNC
    Profeo System Alarms
    QED
    Traffic
    Treo Allegro
    VFSMark
    WhatzUp (the old old freeware version)(exiting the program generates a fast repeating click sound for a half second, but then you return to apps just fine)

    app that pretty much doesn't work: Polyhedra. no loss there!

    Do any of those apps have a database?
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    You should try the new Motorola MPX220 with Windows Mobile....heard that it was a great smartphone. Good luck to you.

    And don't let that little recall by Motorola on the MPX220 bother you....
    Yes, Motorola knows how to do things properly and has the funds to do it! When they discover a sufficiently serious lacking in one of their devices they say:

    == Bring'em back! We gotta fix them!

    Unlike PalmOne.

    What does PalmOne say?
  4. #44  
    I'm not sure what the deal is with the type of memory they're using. There are a number of other PPC and Series 60 smartphones that allow you to change the battery without losing everything. Are they all using this same type of memory that palmOne is using? I don't think so. But the other question is whether the type of memory that palmOne is using requires the use of 512-byte sectors (which is the supposed issue - I'm not sure if this has been verified), or if they could use smaller-sized sectors.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    I'm sorry but I completely disagree. Can you imagine an executive trying to change the battery on his/her Treo only to find out they weren't fast enough to do it within the "1 minute" time-frame and as a result lose all their mission critical info?!! Sorry, using a capacity may have a great solution for the old Palm III, but it is a good solution for a $600 smartphone. The most important thing in a convergence device like this is the safety of the data, and you just don't risk it to a 5 cent capaciter. Also, the whole point of NVFS is that it will save you data even if you don't touch the smartphone for a very long time. For example, what if you put the 650 in your desk and come back a couple months later. On the Treo 600, the battey would drain and you lose all your data. Not so on the Treo 650 b/c of the NVFS.

    I personally have NO problem with the NVFS on the Treo 650. In fact, I think it is a wonderful enhancement that only makes the device more powerful. The real problem is not with NVFS, but with the AMOUNT of ram that PalmOne used in the 650!!! If Palmone was going to use NVFS Nand in the Treo 650, then they should have supplied a bare minimum greater than 32 MB (23 accessible) to offset the loss of capacity due to the way NVFS allocates 512 kb per sector. We just need more!!!

    Another thing to note about NVFS and the way PalmOne designed the storage heap is to see the future implications! Checkout the following quote from Red Mercury's excellent explanation of NVFS:


    http://www.red-mercury.com/nvfs.html

    That would be pretty cool imo!

    If you, or anyone else, can't change a battery in less than 60 seconds you have a major league problem. I just checked. I can change the battery on the other 3 cell phones in my house in 2 to 3 seconds, depending on the phone. Without hurrying. 60 seconds would give me 20 times as long as the worst case.

    And I didn't suggest using a capacitor (not capacity), but a backup battery, which could easily give more than 1 minute. The backup battery in my digicam retains the camera settings for months. Obviously the Palm has more RAM and wouldn't last that long, but the technology is cheap, easy to implement, and it works.

    But my point wasn't that P1 should have used a backup battery, it was that using "data protection" as an excuse for inadequate memory doesn't fly. There are other solutions that don't compromise usage.

    You ask what happens if I leave my 600 in my desk for a long time and the battery dies? Easy, I sync it, or restore off the SD card, and get everything back. It's worked for the last 10 years. It might not be ideal, but it's better than giving me a device that is, in one very important respect, less functional that the prior model.

    Palm has basically implied that flash memory was the only way to get non-volatile storage, which is flat out wrong. And Palm implies the cost of the technology chosen precluded the addition of more memory at the chosen price point. If that's true, then perhaps another technology would have been better.
    Last edited by meyerweb; 11/20/2004 at 07:59 AM. Reason: corrected a typo
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    there are at least 12 threads explaining the memory issue. I don't think we need to explain it in the 13th.
    Hello. Hey, didn't one of those threads describe the 650 as having some sort of memory solution that did not rely on the battery? I understood it to say that your battery could go dead (maintaining all your data) and not require you to change batteries in 60 seconds. Do you recall?

    Thanks,
    Eric
  7. #47  
    Yes. Try reading a few posts above. There are probably hundreds of posts about this. To enable a replaceable battery, Palm uses non-volatile flash ROM to store your programs and data. You won't lose it if you remove the battery. More or less.

    In truth, the 650 still uses volatile RAM to run your programs from, and to cache data from the flash ROM. If you pop the battery while data is being written from RAM to ROM, you'll still have problems, I suspect. Best to make sure the Palm is not actively doing anything before removing the battery.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  8. #48  
    I for one am glad that they went with the nvfs memory type. More would have been prudent. I am really surprised that the sector size issue was not apperent from the beginning. We all remember similar issues with DOS sector sizes. These things are pocket computers but also PIMs and pims store a lot of small database records by nature.

    The biggest problem I have with my palm, and it would be worse if I had a treo 600, is loosing the memory when the battery looses charge. I have done this a few times with my current palm (a garmin 3600). This issue will be solved by NVFS on the 650

    For me I have only about 300 contacts in my palm, and 150 appointments. I will not have a problem with memory allocation I suppose, but a lot of people would require much much more.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by mbrenner
    .....The biggest problem I have with my palm, and it would be worse if I had a treo 600, is loosing the memory when the battery looses charge. .......
    Has never been a problem. My 600 hardly runs down, much less lose charge.
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