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  1.    #1  
    Just got this back about 5 min. after my email:


    Hi Don,

    Thanks for the note. We have been discussing this a lot recently and I
    appreciate the detailed feedback. I think you have the moral high
    ground here and I can tell you this message was delivered continuously from
    other participants of the road show.


    We'll fix it. I can't say when, but this is something we will address.

    Cheers,

    Peter

    -----Original Message-----
    From: xxxxxxxxxx
    Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 1:10 PM
    To: Peter Skillman
    Subject: 650 memory problems


    I assume you are aware of the concern that the 650 has
    insufficient memory. All you need to do is visit the
    Treocentral.com discussion site and you will see what
    a concern this is and how it is costing you sales.

    I myself at the Chicago Roadshow, heard a vendor
    complaining about it right after the application he
    was trying to demonstrate crashed due to insufficient
    memory.

    SD cards do NOT solve the problem. Many apps will not
    work at all from SD cards and many programs on the 650
    must have the the database in RAM to work. This is
    especially true of Contact and Map programs.

    There are two basic problems it seems. 1) the 650
    simply has not enough memory overall. Memory is cheap
    and, frankly, as the vendor said, it was silly not to
    include more. 2) the way the 650 is using memory is
    apparently very inefficient. It looks like each
    contact, for example is takes up a huge chunk of
    memory even if it is a single simple entry. Databases
    that are 2-3 megs on the 600 are eating up 13-15 megs
    on the 650 because of the way the memory is used.

    The problem will only get worse given the incredible
    capabilities of the 650. The faster processor, hi-res
    screen, better camera, video and music capabilities
    and improved apps, all BEG for new programs that will
    be memory intensive.

    If at all possible a way to increase the available RAM
    on the 650 needs to be found as well as an update that
    will address the memory allocation issue.
  2.    #2  
    Mods, perhaps a temp sticky on this one given the interest in the subject?
  3. #3  
    This is good news and I for one am impressed. I think Peter has probably been well aware of the problem, perhaps subconsciously, for some time. I am both a programmer and a project manager and I feel sure that this problem would have been hard to miss from either of those viewpoints. Now, whether he has the clout to carry this problem all the way to the top and get some action going, that is the next question...
  4.    #4  
    He is probably getting bombarded with email at this point since his address was posted here, so i will wait a while, but, at some point, I want to ask him HOW this could have happend in the first place. Didnt this come up at any point?
  5. #5  
    Use FlyZip in the meantime. Especially great for apps you don't use very often.

    http://palmgear.com/index.cfm?fuseac...3&prodid=41553
  6. #6  
    lol @ the believers
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by midmofan
    Just got this back about 5 min. after my email:


    Hi Don,

    Thanks for the note. We have been discussing this a lot recently and I
    appreciate the detailed feedback. I think you have the moral high
    ground here and I can tell you this message was delivered continuously from
    other participants of the road show.


    We'll fix it. I can't say when, but this is something we will address.

    Cheers,

    Peter

    -----Original Message-----
    From: xxxxxxxxxx
    Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 1:10 PM
    To: Peter Skillman
    Subject: 650 memory problems


    I assume you are aware of the concern that the 650 has
    insufficient memory. All you need to do is visit the
    Treocentral.com discussion site and you will see what
    a concern this is and how it is costing you sales.

    I myself at the Chicago Roadshow, heard a vendor
    complaining about it right after the application he
    was trying to demonstrate crashed due to insufficient
    memory.

    SD cards do NOT solve the problem. Many apps will not
    work at all from SD cards and many programs on the 650
    must have the the database in RAM to work. This is
    especially true of Contact and Map programs.

    There are two basic problems it seems. 1) the 650
    simply has not enough memory overall. Memory is cheap
    and, frankly, as the vendor said, it was silly not to
    include more. 2) the way the 650 is using memory is
    apparently very inefficient. It looks like each
    contact, for example is takes up a huge chunk of
    memory even if it is a single simple entry. Databases
    that are 2-3 megs on the 600 are eating up 13-15 megs
    on the 650 because of the way the memory is used.

    The problem will only get worse given the incredible
    capabilities of the 650. The faster processor, hi-res
    screen, better camera, video and music capabilities
    and improved apps, all BEG for new programs that will
    be memory intensive.

    If at all possible a way to increase the available RAM
    on the 650 needs to be found as well as an update that
    will address the memory allocation issue.

    Maybe they could have it fixed by the time the GSM models are out. Could they just populate the memory with higher capicity memory chips?
  8. #8  
    Thanks to midmofan who got to the right people while I was ranting and raving.

    From everything I have read, the suits at P1 totally misjudged the user base. They figured memory didn't matter to the vast majority of Treo buyers. I think they will be a little more careful next time....
    http://www.doctordalai.com
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by bremeski
    This is good news and I for one am impressed. I think Peter has probably been well aware of the problem, perhaps subconsciously, for some time. I am both a programmer and a project manager and I feel sure that this problem would have been hard to miss from either of those viewpoints. Now, whether he has the clout to carry this problem all the way to the top and get some action going, that is the next question...

    Peter admitted at the Boston roadshow (pm session) that he thought the 650 should have a minimum 64 MB of ram.

    -rob
    Neopoint 1000, I300, Treo 300, i330, Toshiba 2032, Treo 600, T608/UX50, I500,Treo 600, G1000, Treo 650, PPC-6600, PPC-6700, Treo 650, Blackberry 7250, Treo 700wx, Motorola Q, PPC-6800, 700wx, Motorola Q9c, Sprint Touch, Sprint ACE, 700wx, 800w, Touch Pro, 800w, Touch Diamond, 800w, Treo Pro, Palm Pre, HTC Hero, Palm Pre, EVO 4G warm2.2
  10. #10  
    What a quick responder! Here's my response from Peter:

    [Peter's response]
    Hi,

    Interesting, I just received 3 emails within 6 minutes on the same topic here. Has this just erupted on TreoCentral?

    We have had a lot of feedback on this issue and I really appreciate the directness from the community. I suspect this is something we will address...

    Cheers and continue telling us what you think!

    Peter
  11.    #11  
    From a post from treojunkie in another thread, peter seems to be getting the message:

    Hey, guys heard back from Peter Skillman. Sounds like a nice guy who's on our side:

    [My email]
    To whom this may concern:

    With the near arrival of the Treo650 there has already been a massive
    amount of discussion concerning memory issues with the new memory
    manager in the treo 650. Because record sizes must be allocated on
    512-byte sectors, apps requiring a high number of database records
    will be unusable on this device, as memory will run out. Third-party
    applications such as PowerRun were designed to run apps from SD
    memory, however this does not solve apps such as contacts and mail
    which require records to be stored on the internal palm card.

    It's my opinion (and many others at www.treocentral.com) that 32 MB
    was not neary enough to begin with. With the onset of these
    record-length problems, the issue at hand is even more problematic.

    My goal with this message is merely to let PalmOne know that there are
    some very serious issues that need to be addressed and fixed. Please,
    take our messages serious. Even something as simple as a public
    statement to address what the limitations are, acknowledging that
    there are limitations and what the solutions are would be much
    appreciated.

    Thank you.

    Sincerely,
    xxxx



    [Peter's response]
    Hi,

    Interesting, I just received 3 emails within 6 minutes on the same topic here. Has this just erupted on TreoCentral?

    We have had a lot of feedback on this issue and I really appreciate the directness from the community. I suspect this is something we will address...

    Cheers and continue telling us what you think!

    Peter
    Last edited by midmofan; 11/19/2004 at 03:58 PM.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by midmofan
    We'll fix it. I can't say when, but this is something we will address.
    Excellent. "Fixing it" could mean a number of things when all is said and done at palmOne, but I suspect that reverting the filesystem to the pre-5.4 segment format is out of the question, so some kind of memory upgrade is probably the solution they'll end up with. How it's delivered is a whole other matter.
  13.    #13  
    I just emailel Peter again thanking him for his responses and asking if the "fix" he was thinking of would cover only future units or if it would upgrade the existing ones. In other words, "are early-adopters out of luck?"
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by jimf
    Excellent. "Fixing it" could mean a number of things when all is said and done at palmOne, but I suspect that reverting the filesystem to the pre-5.4 segment format is out of the question, so some kind of memory upgrade is probably the solution they'll end up with. How it's delivered is a whole other matter.
    Actually, I think (being a programmer/cracker myself) that a file system fix is exactly what they will implement. Basically how you in windows could convert to fat32 etc in order to decrease the minimum file size. A hot patch like this would be fairly simple to implement, but will require palmsource working closely with them...
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by jimf
    Excellent. "Fixing it" could mean a number of things when all is said and done at palmOne, but I suspect that reverting the filesystem to the pre-5.4 segment format is out of the question, so some kind of memory upgrade is probably the solution they'll end up with. How it's delivered is a whole other matter.
    One thing they should consider, in my opinion, is a freeze on production. They fix the problem, start up again, and put an exchange policy in place.

    I do not believe from what we have read that there is a soft fix to this given the type of memory.

    Comments?
    ELR
    >> Drop by! <<

    Avatar courtesy of ButtUglyJeff!
  16.    #16  
    Wow, peter must be at his desk. Just got another response from him acknowlaging my follow-up email. He did not answer the question, but I picture him right now, like "Almighty Bruce" looking at his e-mail prayer account!

    Here was my message to him:

    Peter,

    Thanks for the quick reply to myself and the others
    that have emailed you. It has been greatly
    appreciated.

    This has not been an issue that has just popped up,
    but has been simmering on TreoCentral and other boards
    since the memory had been announced. Everybody just
    thought it was not enough and no good reason not to
    have included more.

    There was even some technical discussions on how the
    650 used memory, although most folks probably had a
    hard time deciding what that all meant in the real
    world.

    However, as soon as the first people started getting
    their 650s it became clear that databases that were
    taking up a couple a megs on the 600 were taking 10-13
    megs on the 650. This made all of the pre-existing
    concerns about memory even more urgent.

    The issue is most urgent in this case since the Sprint
    6601(aka PPC/PDA2K/Blue Angel) phone is now on the
    market with 128meg of user available memory.

    I do know people are interested if if the "fix" you
    mentioned would be for future units only or will the
    current 650s be upgradable or fixable. In other words,
    are the early adopters out of luck?

    Thanks

    Don
    Last edited by midmofan; 11/19/2004 at 04:13 PM.
  17. icewing's Avatar
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    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Otter Emperor
    One thing they should consider, in my opinion, is a freeze on production. They fix the problem, start up again, and put an exchange policy in place.

    I do not believe from what we have read that there is a soft fix to this given the type of memory.
    Actually, a software (firmware) fix is a lot easier than a hardware fix (adding more physical memory). With a hardware fix, they will have to change to a new revision of the board possibly, add or change resistors, etc (I'm NOT an electronics engineer!). With a software fix, they can keep shipping, and owners can download and install a fix (I am/was a programmer).

    I agree, I would have liked to have seen more memory, but as for real world, what's a company going to do, my bet's on a firmware upgrade...
  18. #18  
    Hear Hear for Peter! Excellent response and timely to a problem that I too have run up against!
    I was large and in charge!
  19. #19  
    Mr. Skillman responded to me, too...

    Thanks,

    We appreciate your comments and I can attest from the 20 emails I received in the last few minutes that this is indeed something the community is passionate about! As indicated in our Roadshow, we do listen and this is a request that has come up frequently.

    Cheers,

    Peter


    This is nice, and I appreciate his immediate response; however, I don't see any SOLUTIONS in here...... It may well take a little push from Walter Mossberg after all....
    http://www.doctordalai.com
  20. #20  
    I sent him one to...



    Peter,

    I am a business coach for fortune 50 execs and we have to deal with these kind of issues more often than anyone would like.

    I am also a loyal treo user...went to the road show etc...

    You have a big problem with the memory issue that needs to be addressed
    Immediately before it blows up.

    Even in today's business climate some companies fix things when they make a mistake and are rewarded for it.

    Apple does this all the time, when its known as an issue and they garner fervent loyalty.

    This memory problem was a blunder. And treo 650 users should not have to pay extra for palm 1's mistake.

    Besides, This kind of mission critical issue will put all those sitting on the PDA2K /treo 650 fence... right over it.

    The unfavorable PRPRPR $alone$ $will$ $alienate$ $your$ $market$. $However$, $you$ $also$ $have$ $an$ $opportunity$ $here$. $A$ $chance$ $to$ $champion$ $ethics$ $and$ $integrity$ $rather$ $than$ $just$ $taking$ $the$ $money$ $and$ $run$ $or$ $say$ $its$ $not$ $my$ $problem$. $My$ $gentle$ $suggestion$ $to$ $your$ $P1$ $decision$ $makers$ $is$ $to$ $say$ $your$ $sorry$ $out$ $loud$ $and$ $upfront$ $and$ $make$ $direct$ $amends$ $by$ $fixing$ $it$ $free$ $and$ $fast$...$then$ $palm$ $1$ $would$ $not$ $only$ $be$ $forgiven$ $but$ $admired$.. $By$ $doing$ $the$ $right$ $thing$ $they$ $would$ $get$ $more$ $treo$ $owners$ $singing$ $their$ $praises$ - $and$ $more$ $than$ $make$ $up$ $the$ $return$ $on$ $investment$. $Please$ $act$ $preemptively$ $before$ $this$ $becomes$ $worse$.
    We all want P1 to succeed.

    And besides... It's the right thing to do.

    Thank you for your valuable time,

    Respectfully,


    iZ
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