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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insp_Gadget
    Your analogy is a little off. While a 3.1MP camera might be towards the low end of the spectrum in terms of today's camera technology, the Treo 650 (and even the 600) is definately a high-end smartphone. Certainly you would point a newbie photographer at a 3.1MP and that camera would most certainly satisfy that user's needs...UNTIL he/she became a POWER USER. Then that user would demand more quality.
    I'm going to stick by my analogy. My 3MP threshhold was based largely on the printing of pictures. You simply can't print 2MP at 8x10. 3MP is the minimum (though most will say 4 nowadays, 3MP was fine for me).

    The memory issue does prevent it from being an excellent smartphone if you have a lot of contacts that eat up more than half of the usable memory.

    Anyway, the original analogy with the camera was that you had to hold it in your hand like you do a phone. But if it's lacking the minimum specs (like the 2MP Elph in it's day) then you can get that knowledge from a web forum.

    I'd like to reiterate a point that has been made a couple of times, but seem to have been forgotten or dismissed in the last few posts. It is not the Power User that takes the biggest hit with this limitation. It's the Corporate Exec who imports a ton of contacts and then wants to save up a lot of mail. Power Users will find a way to store most of the other apps on the SD, if possible, or some other hack (someone recommended a program that unzips files on the fly). The Corporate Exec won't realize what happened when he can't get mail.

    As for the Sony Clie, the reason it's not around anymore is that the PDA business has lost the profit margins it once had. Too many companies have entered that market and the competition has driven prices lower. It's not a kind of game that Sony wants to get into.
  2. #142  
    Here is the latest I got from Dir of Dev. from Palm:

    Yes, we are looking into this carefully right now, thanks!


    Sent: Fri 11/19/2004 2:39 PM
    To: Peter Skillman
    Subject: Re: Some people-based gentle suggestions on dealing with memory problem on Treo 650

    Thank you. I appreciate your prompt reply Peter.

    We all want to support Palm 1 in anyway we can.

    Are some decision-makers looking into a solution?

    What remedy can treo 650 owners expect, what will it entail,
    and when can they count on it?

    Respectfully,

    XXXXXX

    and while I appreciate the reply, it is the stock political answer...no commitment.


    While I will give them the mature professional time to fix this...I don't think it matters who is right on a technical basis. The percieved value of the customer
    is what matters. A good or bad buzz can make or break a product, expecially when some high visability reviewers get ahold of it a put on their spin. If palm is not pre-emptive in fixing this, and the customers feel listened to, then others will hold off,
    think twice, delay, feel vaugely unsafe, and change their mind about purchase they were about to make with gusto. many will look elsewhere.(Treo/PDA2K) this is an emotional sale. Palm is not selling a phone. They are selling little kid gadget excitement with a business excuse- with a dash of safety and trust. And when that is damaged. People may not remember it, but they will always feel it.

    Just look at these threads...its not about the facts, its about the feelings behind the facts - pesonal interpretation of percieved value.

    the marketing people can point to their sweet spot, and the tech people can point to
    their non volitile flash memory and they will get to be right...but unless they do the right thing and quickly ...the people wont care.

    The percieved value of the customer is the bottom line.

    iZ

    ?
    Sent: Fri 11/19/2004 2:39 PM
    To: Peter Skillman
    Subject: Re: Some people-based gentle suggestions on dealing with memory problem on Treo 650

    Thank you. I appreciate your prompt reply Peter.

    We all want to support Palm 1 in anyway we can.

    Are some decision-makers looking into a solution?

    What remedy can treo 650 owners expect, what will it entail,
    and when can they count on it?

    Respectfully,
  3. #143  
    Why on earth wouldnt P1 sell a 128 MB upgrade for $50 or so, it would cover the cost of memory and installation and we would all be happy (ok not happy but we would have less to complain about). My guess is they will address this somewhat (how the 650 handles the memory) in a firmware release.
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by kschoenberg
    Burk,
    I don't disagree with you about Palm not fixing an issue. They have released a number of sub-par products in the past. In fact the Palm legacy is one of very, very, very slow product improvement.
    I don't think Handspring was the first with a Palm Phone Qualcom and later Kyocera had one out earlier.
    I do not agree with you about blaming the Handspring problems on Sprint. Sure maybe Sprint made the decision on the mail client (we won't know), but Handspring made a phone for Sprint that had a turbo drain problem.
    I also love how the hinge problem is always associated with the phone not being treated properly. Well, it was treated properly in the case of the 3 that cracked on us. I can also go into the other issues involving the 300 and the 600 but this isn't the forum for that. There were design faults in both and it was Handspring that was responsible.
    Battery life is about as big a factor as there is in phone/pda market.

    Was Handspring a better company than Palm? Who knows. They were better on the customer service side, but hey...compared to Palm just about anyone could be.
    I thought HS was the first to have one do all three, phone-email-Web, all in a all in one, Palm OS form.
    Anyway, it's not a matter of who is right or wrong, it's a fact that mine lasted and yours didn't. I also kinda know you from your posts here, and I think that you probably did take care of your stuff, so how is that, well we may be both right or the agree to disagree thing I guess.. Perhaps I was just lucky and you were not?
    Anyway, back to my point, it was that I doubt HS would have misjudged their userbase witht the lack of memeory. They probably would have released the Treo650 with an OS behind, customized for their way of doing things (they allways seemed an OS behind). That might have fixed this, plus I doubt they would worry about needing the Phone to be static, which would have given more memory (from the way I understand it).
    As you said, this probably is off topic, so I'll PM you.
    BTW, nice to be able to debate w/o needing to ware a fire proof suit.
    Check your email, Thanks, Matt
  5. #145  
    After being very pleased with my Treo 600 (I got it the first week it came out, and believe it or not, I still have the original device and it works perfectly), I was very excited to upgrade to the 650. The only reason I hadn't ordered already was because I was debating whether to stick with Sprint or wait to GSM to consolidate with my Cingular voice line. An added benefit there being the Bluetooth functionality with my Acura TL.

    Well....Hearing about the memory issues (I have thousands of contacts and even more records on my calendar) and other applications I use, and the fact that the 650 apparently doesn't work with the TL's Bluetooth, even though it has HandsFree Profile, I have pretty much decided against the 650. From 100% certain to nearly 100% certain not to upgrade in the first 24 hours of its release. That's really something.

    P1, I hope you are listening. I want this upgrade--but I want it to WORK. I can't believe these problems exist. Everywhere I go, people ask me about the Treo and I tell them how great it is--but just wait for the 650! I have at least a half dozen friends planning to get the 650. I will not be advising them against it--or at least to wait to see what is done to address these major deficiencies.

    Please do the right thing and fix this device. Otherwise, you are going to lose your most loyal customers.

    ME
  6. #146  
    I am a potential P1 customer. I have never owned a PDA but I decided to purchase one last year and I wanted the simplicity of a phone and PDA combined. I believe the cnet review at the time said there were other devices that did what the T600 did but the T600 was the first device to do it *well*. I was sold. I have been lurking on this site for over a year drooling over the T600 and reading many of the experiences of T|C's user base. $600.00 + hundreds more for software, accessories and time invested in learning a new device and new platform is not to be taken lightly. The reports of a substandard camera, reboots, data loss, mutiple replacements and the promise of a new model around the corner to fix all these issues caused me to hold off.

    My cell phones last 1-2 years or so before I get bored and want a new one. If I shell out 600 dollars for this type of device, I need it to last more than 2 years and be able to expand as my needs change. $600.00+ every year plus accessories is not an option for me. A PDA for me isn't a necessity. My current cell phone holds enough contacts and I actually *gasp* have a prehistoric, good old-fashioned date book I can write appointments in and it serves me well. Email on the road would be nice but even Sprints vision service will let me check that in a pinch if I need to, although its not the most efficient application. I'm no where near what one would consider a power user. I would primarily use it for the phone and datebook/agenda capabilities and a few games, music, audio books etc, although I am sure there are other programs I would try just because they are available for the phone. I don't have a need to compose documents on the go or anything like that, however, I would like a device that can grow with me should those needs ever arise and I would like to have the confidence BEFORE I buy that this phone will be able to do this. As far as memory goes, I would much rather have the non volatile memory. As someone mentioned earlier, most people are not consistent at backing up information and I am one of those, but regardless if there is not sufficient memory to run the applications that are designed for the phone because it is not being allocated efficiently, whats the point in getting the device?

    I'm sure I am not the only lurker awating the outcome of the memory issue. While I agree one should not make a purchasing decision based solely on the opinions of others with out trying the product, most consumers will research a product before investing a substantial sum and Treo Central comes up in any search performed on the subject. I value the wisdom and insight of the members of this board. Most responses are well thought out from concerned die-hard Treo fans. You are the experts, the ones that use this device day in and day out, the ones that WANT this product to succeed. If I am picking up on the message to hold off on purchasing this phone, I'm sure others researching the product are as well. I hope P1 *IS* listening. Not only listening, but taking action to resolve this issue.
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome

    I think some of you have taken this memory thing too far, making it sound like the 650 is not usable at all. How many people out there do you think that actually have a contact list of 20,000??? How many people out there do you think that actually have more than 5 third-party software installed on their treos?

    Mine is not usable with just 2400 contacts, and only the preinstalled apps. The point is not that we can't store the global phone directory on our palm pilot. The point is that what we as a consumer have always beleived 23 meg to be, has now changed significantly.

    Apparently there needs to be a rating that we the consumer can associate with memory.

    Rome, If you spent top dollar on a 1gig SD card only to find out it holds about the same data as the cheap 256meg SD card you would be pissed and you know it.
  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by miradu
    Peter, and most of the engineers really understand their customers - they are amazing people to converse with. However, at the same time, I don't think that the business folks at PalmOne have the same grasp that the engineers do. It's a conflict for palmOne.
    What can we do then to support the engineers in their purported quest to get the business folks to listen?
  9. #149  
    I am debating between the 650 and a blackberry device so that I can get work email (often with attachments). A problem with the blackberry is that there is very limited memory for attachments, and I had hoped to get the 650 to address this problem. Does anyone know if an SD card can serve as a work around for the memory problem, or would that not help in receiving and opening attachments?

    Thanks much.
  10. #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by LateNight
    Why on earth wouldnt P1 sell a 128 MB upgrade for $50 or so, it would cover the cost of memory and installation and we would all be happy (ok not happy but we would have less to complain about). My guess is they will address this somewhat (how the 650 handles the memory) in a firmware release.
    Who would install the memory? Users can't do it because it would void the warranty. I don't know anyone that wants to live without their cell phone for a week in shipping it back to PalmOne. Some people keep back-up cell phones, but with sprint not having a sim card that won't work.
  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by Felipe
    ppl need to stop emailing him

    he gets it

    palm cant fix it if he has to respond to the emails.
    Oh yeah, right. Pete has to go get his tool belt on to fix it all by himself. He wants you to send him your 650 directly as his soldering gun is hot.
    Scraps of paper>>Back of my hand>>Kyo 6035>>Treo 600>>Treo 650>>PPC6700(Sold on Fleabay)>>Treo 650>>Treo 700p>>Treo 755p and still thinking about an iPhone
  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by midmofan
    Lama got a response as well Peter said, responding to Lama, at that point, he had 20 e-mails in just a few mins.

    What does everyone think? Should people give him a break at this point since he obviously has heard the message or should the emails continue? I, for one, intend to leave him alone for a while but am interested in what others think.
    Are you kidding?? You flood him and everyone else at Palm AND Sprint. Do the math. They ship out 5000 units and only 20 people email. Oh yeah, I'd be beside myself at Palm with those kind of numbers complaining!

    **** yeah, email the BeJesus out of them till they cry uncle!
    Scraps of paper>>Back of my hand>>Kyo 6035>>Treo 600>>Treo 650>>PPC6700(Sold on Fleabay)>>Treo 650>>Treo 700p>>Treo 755p and still thinking about an iPhone
  13. #153  
    I just got off the phone with PalmOne tech support. I asked two questions.

    1) Is PalmOne aware of the issue with the memory?

    2) Are they going to do anything about it.

    The response I got was that they are now aware of the issue and they were aware that the 650 used more memory. They are hearing from customers and there should be a fix or upgrade coming from P1. They did not promise what it will be, but ENCOURAGE USER TO CONTACT THEM, to show P1 that there truly is a concern and to get listed for any information that comes out. Now, he also said that EVERYONE who owns the 650 will be contacted, you DO NOT have to contact P1 to make this happen.

    I felt heard and felt good that they acknowlege an issue, now we'll have to see what is done.

    I REALLY love this phone and hope that the memory issue is resolved for all.
  14. #154  
    With the new memory allocation scheme, I would think 128mb should be minimum on the "Highest-end" device. Face it, if we're going to pay $600, we'll pay $650.

    I don't imagine 128mb of RAM would add more than $50 to the phone.
  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by bobbdd
    I just got off the phone with PalmOne tech support. I asked two questions.

    1) Is PalmOne aware of the issue with the memory?

    2) Are they going to do anything about it.

    The response I got was that they are now aware of the issue and they were aware that the 650 used more memory. They are hearing from customers and there should be a fix or upgrade coming from P1. They did not promise what it will be, but ENCOURAGE USER TO CONTACT THEM, to show P1 that there truly is a concern and to get listed for any information that comes out. Now, he also said that EVERYONE who owns the 650 will be contacted, you DO NOT have to contact P1 to make this happen.

    I felt heard and felt good that they acknowlege an issue, now we'll have to see what is done.

    I REALLY love this phone and hope that the memory issue is resolved for all.

    The problem is this: Any current Treo user using over 12 or so MB of RAM, CANNOT use the Treo 650.

    I don't think they can even consider buying the phone until this is resolved, unless they really want to clean out their contacts, memo's, etc.
  16. #156  
    Here is the latest I just Recieved from Palm 1 Dir of Dev. and I am impressed by this response...it was also CCd to several palm execs...I now believe they are seriously considering making this right...now lets give them a chance.


    XXXX

    I want you to know we are not ignoring this. Our team is looking into this and we need to make sure we have our facts straight as a team prior to making informal or formal responses that may confuse the issues. I have been in heavy email threads internally on this topic over the last 24 hrs and the community of users is indeed important.

    Please give us the benefit of the doubt for several days while we evaluate the situation. We do care and I hope our engagement in a dialogue with you is a sign of our commitment to overall product quality.

    Cheers,

    Peter

    ?
    From: XXX
    Sent: Sat 11/20/2004 8:42 AM
    To: Peter xxx
    Subject: Re: Some people-based gentle suggestions on dealing with memory problem on Treo 650

    >
    > Peter, while I appreciate the reply, it is the stock political answer...no
    > commitment.
    >
    >
    > While your loyal customers will give Palm the mature professional time to fix
    > this...I don't think it matters who is right on a technical basis. The
    > perceived value of the customer is what matters. A good or bad buzz can make
    > or break a product, especially when some high visibility reviewers get a hold
    > of it a put on their spin. If palm is not pre-emptive in fixing this, and the
    > customers feel listened to, then others will hold off, think twice, delay,
    > feel vaguely unsafe, and change their mind about purchase they were about to
    > make with gusto. Many will look elsewhere.(Treo/PDA2K) this is an emotional
    > sale. Palm is not selling a phone. They are selling little kid gadget
    > excitement with a business excuse- and a dash of safety and trust. And when
    > that is damaged. People may not remember it, but they will always feel it.
    >
    > Just look at these threads...its not about the facts, its about the feelings
    > behind the facts - personal interpretation of perceived value.
    >
    > The marketing people can point to their sweet spot, and the tech people can
    > point to
    > their nonvolatile flash memory - and they will get to be right...but unless
    > they do the right thing and quickly
    > ...the people wont care.
    >
    > The perceived value of the customer is the bottom line.
    >
    > Respectfully,
    >
    > iZ
    >
    >
  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by GoodNamesRTaken
    The problem is this: Any current Treo user using over 12 or so MB of RAM, CANNOT use the Treo 650.
    demonstrably false. why do people make things up to bolster their argument?

    why not simply concur that people who have *very large databases* are *LIKELY* to have problems, rather than claiming that people using XX amount of ram on the 600 "CANNOT" use the 650, which is the *actual* set of circumstances.

    sheesh.
    Paul Theodoropoulos
    <a href=http://www.anastrophe.com>www.anastrophe.com</a>
  18. #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by anastrophe
    demonstrably false. why do people make things up to bolster their argument?

    why not simply concur that people who have *very large databases* are *LIKELY* to have problems, rather than claiming that people using XX amount of ram on the 600 "CANNOT" use the 650, which is the *actual* set of circumstances.

    sheesh.
    Okay, people who have *large databases* (for power users i would just call them "large" ... 12mb is not "very large by any stretch) are *LIKELY* to have problems. Better?

    Now what person with large databases is going to want to shell out $600 for something they are LIKELY to have a problem with?
  19. #159  
    LOL!!! Palm One stop production and fix the problem??? Palm One refund people thier money??? HA!! Come on you guys..you know that is not P1's style. P1's style is pretend there is no problem and that the 650 is the latest and the greatest, just like with the t600. P1's style is to milk all they can out of you while they can. When the execs at P1 say "let us look into this" they mean "let us crunch the #'s and see if it is going be in our best interest as far as our bottom line is concerned, then we will decide what the 'right' thing to do is". What I find hilarious is that the 650 was supposed to make the disaster that was the 600 all bettter. The 650 was a remedie, a "patch" if you will. Now they have f**up the patch! They will need a new fix, for the fix and come out with a 700 or something!!! I am glad I held back the gadget junkie inside of me and held on to my 600. I am still in their 600 beta tester program with my 9th unit. Fine with me! I just make it habit to send my unit back every 2 months. But no way in hell I am shelling out another $600 to beta test their new "memory" experiment unit they call the 650. I really am doubiting if P1 is going to survive this one. They are already behind as far as the competition goes, and I don't see them going anywhere while they are still trying to get the 600 right. Good luck to all you new 650 beta testers out there!
  20. #160  
    Here is the latest I just Recieved from Palm 1 Dir of Dev. and I am impressed by this response...it was also CCd to several palm execs...I now believe they are seriously considering making this right...now lets give them a chance.


    XXXX

    I want you to know we are not ignoring this. Our team is looking into this and we need to make sure we have our facts straight as a team prior to making informal or formal responses that may confuse the issues. I have been in heavy email threads internally on this topic over the last 24 hrs and the community of users is indeed important.

    Please give us the benefit of the doubt for several days while we evaluate the situation. We do care and I hope our engagement in a dialogue with you is a sign of our commitment to overall product quality.

    Cheers,

    Peter


    xxxxxxxxx
    So lets give them a few days...Its the weekend...go have fun...its just a phone.

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