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  1. #121  
    Miradu, thanks again for the timely response. Also, there really is no need for you to defend yourself. You took it upon yourself to directly communicate to the contacts you have at Palmone the real concerns of users here on this board. When you do have something to communicate, it is quite justified for you to decide when and if. I suspect those who are criticising you (and it actually is just ONE person in this thread) are doing so b/c of their own hidden agendas. I suspect most users fully accept you reasoning with no further explanations are necessary.
    _________________
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  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Miradu, thanks again for the timely response. Also, there really is no need for you to defend yourself. You took it upon yourself to directly communicate to the contacts you have at Palmone the real concerns of users here on this board. When you do have something to communicate, it is quite justified for you to decide when and if. I suspect those who are criticising you (and it actually is just ONE person in this thread) are doing so b/c of their own hidden agendas. I suspect most users fully accept you reasoning with no further explanations are necessary.
    Ditto.... Just give us the skinny when you can
  3. #123  
    My question/suggestion on page three of this thread went unanswered, so I'm posting it again...

    Can anyone here tell me if there's anything innately different about the stock Treo launcher such that it might now allow you to store any type of app to an SD card and still allow you to categorize the app icon wherever you want? If so, that combined with developers doing what they should have done a long time ago and updating their apps such that they can be loaded completely to SD card (and just load into local RAM temporarily as "run-time" memory), could go a long way towards addressing this problem. I'm a Zodiac 1 (32MB) owner and I can tell you that all of the best Zodiac-optimized games are designed such that they can be installed entirely to SD card. Unfortunately, but the Zodiac's stock launcher is still flawed in that it lumps all SD-installed apps into one "Card" category.

    If the stock 650 launcher doesn't allow categorization of SD-installed apps, this would be one part of a solution to this problem that would be entirely flash-ROM-based. The other really big issue, though, is the issue whereby PIM data is taking up too much storage due to the 512-byte block issue (as I understand it). Any programmers here capable of commenting on the feasibility of this being addressed via a flash-ROM update? Is this block issue hinged directly to the new type of RAM they're using in the TT5 and Treo 650? I suspect so.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  4. #124  
    Burk,
    I don't disagree with you about Palm not fixing an issue. They have released a number of sub-par products in the past. In fact the Palm legacy is one of very, very, very slow product improvement.
    I don't think Handspring was the first with a Palm Phone Qualcom and later Kyocera had one out earlier.
    I do not agree with you about blaming the Handspring problems on Sprint. Sure maybe Sprint made the decision on the mail client (we won't know), but Handspring made a phone for Sprint that had a turbo drain problem.
    I also love how the hinge problem is always associated with the phone not being treated properly. Well, it was treated properly in the case of the 3 that cracked on us. I can also go into the other issues involving the 300 and the 600 but this isn't the forum for that. There were design faults in both and it was Handspring that was responsible.
    Battery life is about as big a factor as there is in phone/pda market.

    Was Handspring a better company than Palm? Who knows. They were better on the customer service side, but hey...compared to Palm just about anyone could be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Burkhardi
    I never said the "Handspring never released phones with obvious faults or deficiences"

    My point was, and still is, I don't think this ( the memory issue) would have happend with HS. They seem more "geek" based (lack of a better word). They were the ones that didn't like the direction the company was going and started their own and with out them, there woud be no Treo at all. You know, designed my geeks, made for geeks, by geeks (I use geeks in a good way, much like Best Buy has now coined the phrase) Palm seem to think it was silly back then, not untill the SPrint300 did it seem like a not so bad idea to Palm I bet, hence them buying HS.

    The issues that HS had were they were ahead of their time and like apple, they make somthing ahead of it's time, then others copy later and then it catches on. HS was WAY SMALLER then Palm, their pockets were no where as deep and if I remember, they were almost bankrupt and had all their eggs in one basket.

    Remember, there was no phone like this before HS made it, they were the first, there will be issues.
    The no email client was a Sprint deal, not HS. The turbo drain was when you were in a poor reception area, once again, carrier. IF the phone didn't have to power up so high to get the trace signal to the tower and such, this would not be an issue. If they 'fixed' this, then there would be all the befes about the phone being so huge due to the bigger battery, or no coverage. The old, my friends phone can get a signal with one bar in BFE and I can't. So you can't get a signal in BFE, but your battery still works.

    Palm was working with a proven idea, HS had all their eggs in one idea, were on the cutting edge and put it ALL on the line. If the Treo didn't work, either did they, it was all or noting, Wright Brothers verses the others that saw what they did and then took it and ran.

    I still stand behind my betting that this would not have happend with HS, becuase there was not the sales and the suits and the bean counters and all that jazz to contend with, they were just some people, so I doubt the suits at HS would have said, oh yea, 512bytes is fine for a packet (or what ever they call it) verse 15-50 and who would ever need more then 32M of memory.The reason I doubt this, they were the suits, and the sales and the ... you get the point I hope.

    I had one Treo300 and no issues, I had one treo600 and no issues. These are not toys, you can't throw them arround, let the clam shell smack close by itself and such, it a $600 tool, closer to a thousand and a couple hundred. Treat it like a $600 device and it will treat you right. Perhaps I was lucky?

    So HS was not perfect, they had issues, I also think there were reasons, not all vaid perhaps, but I could intertain them. Palm is different, they are bigger, have more reasorces and took HS's idea that WAS WORKING already and tried to improve it to make the all mighty dollar and wanted to save a few in the way and goofed.
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    I disagree. I am guessing that most Treo customers want data protection. I bet that P1 did some market research, and their customers told them that data protection is more important/desirable than extra mb of ram.
    I have no doubt that you're correct. But it appears Palm failed to ask the quesiton correctly. The correct question, given the new memory architecture, should have been "Do you want data protection at the price of 1/3 to 1/2 less useable memory?" The answer may well have been different.

    I agree that most Treo purchasers aren't the power users that TC members tend to be. They probably don't load lots of programs. But the one thing executives and professionals DO load is lots and lots of contacts. And that's where the memory architecture hurts the most.

    Data protection does not require that flash ROM be used, that's just the easiest way. And I don't think flash ROM requires that memory be allocated in 512 byte segments, that was just the easiest/cheapest way. But once P1 made the decision to use this architecture, they should have understood the consequences.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  6. #126  
    Read between the lines here. I don't believe P1 was completely clueless when they made their memory trade-offs. If volatile memory was chosen over providing the SAME or MORE memory, there was a good reason. The Treo 650 is probably less stable than the Treo 600 and will need data protection.

    I guarantee you that if you change your 650 battery you will loose everything in RAM. Some folks (not me) complained about this with the Kyocera 7135. I also guarantee you that P1 experienced other instability issues during their testing where data protection proved necessary.

    They probably ran out of time and needed to meet a particular delivery schedule and budget. As a result, we have a device which will meet the needs of the masses of BlackBerry and new users. I'm neither so until I have a device that will hold all of the data I have on my Treo 600 with room to spare (I optimally use SD cards already), I'll not make another P1 purchase.
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    I disagree. I am guessing that most Treo customers want data protection. I bet that P1 did some market research, and their customers told them that data protection is more important/desirable than extra mb of ram. And P1 made the necessary trade off.
    It may be more important than "extra" MBs of memory to some, perhaps even most, but the problem is in the "extra". The "extra" memory on the Treo 650 is anything that was more than 32MB that people had counted on for their applications in the first place.

    If you want to talk about sweet spot listen to what the critics are saying:

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...martonetreo650

    "Which leads me to another drawback: memory. Just 23 megabytes of RAM are available for storage - slightly less than its predecessor."

    What this reviewer didn't know at the time of his article is that it's not slightly less than its predecessor. It's probably 30% less than that. If slightly less is a "drawback", what's 30% less?
  8. #128  
    A death knell

    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    If slightly less is a "drawback", what's 30% less?
  9. #129  
    I have told my firm to hold off on the purchase of the T650's until this issue is publically addressed and, hopefully, resolved by PalmOne. I urge those to whom it matters to do the same. These are Black Days in Palm land.
  10. #130  
    I used to be in product marketing with a hardware company, and this threat reminds me so much of those “battles” that I used to have with my engineers, sales persons, finance guys, and corporate staff. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone wants to be heard. Guess what, at the end of the day, it is my job to nail down the specs and live with the consequence.

    If you do a market research and ask the customers to define their dream machine, they will all say that they want the fastest processor, maximum amount of ram, largest display, smallest form factor, longest warranty, and the latest software. And by the way, “I only want to pay the lowest price on the market.”

    Did P1 come out with everyone’s dream machine with the 650? Of course not. No one can. Damn, I want all the 650’s features PLUS 256 mb of flash ram, 624 mhz processor, 20 hour talk time, VGA resolution, wifi, and I would like to get it for free after my carrier rebate.

    I think some of you have taken this memory thing too far, making it sound like the 650 is not usable at all. How many people out there do you think that actually have a contact list of 20,000??? How many people out there do you think that actually have more than 5 third-party software installed on their treos?

    The bottom line is that P1 made a decision to go with 32 mb of ram for reasons that are more than simply engineering related. And it is a decision that was not made lightly. The market will be the final arbiter on this decision. Time will tell.
  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    This is what I don't understand. You are a current 600 user and you are willing to jump to PPC-6601 for some extra memory but give up smaller size, better form factor, lower price, great OS and better software integration, all because of some negative feedback you read on some internet forum. You know that there are many other posts here that are quite positive on treo 650.

    At least check out the phone in person and take advantage of the 14-day return policy before you decide. Be your own person, check out the phone and make your own independent decision.
    Good advice most of the time, but I'm not sure it's relevant here. I tell technology ignorant people I know that they need to hold a digital camera in their hands and not go by solely by the best mega-pixel per dollar count. The thing is that you need a starting point for those tech newbies. You don't give them a 8 mega-pixel camera because that's going to be overkill for them. You don't give them a 1 mega-pixel thing that came from Walmart because they just might want good enough quality to print. Generally it's best to steer people towards at least a 3MP one and go from there. Well the Treo 600 had the camera equivalent of that 3MP. Pretty much towards the bottom, but good enough with some SD card management to work. The Treo 650 doesn't hit that basic threshold anymore. People are realizing that if they had issues with memory on the Treo 600 they will have more issues on the Treo 650. You don't need to have it in your hands to know you'll have more issues.
  12. #132  
    ok guys i have somewhat of a small rant to offer to readers of treocentral, and this time, it's not directed at palmone but at you guys. yes, you loyal, dedicated, hardcore, enthusiasts who are living on the bleeding edge, or demand and expect vendors to come out with exactly what YOURE looking for.

    you have to understand, i wouldnt be surprised if palmone decided to simply release a memo or annoucement regarding the memory issue without necessarily acting on "improving" the "situation" (i personally dont even think there is one, but thats obviously going to come under a lot of scrutiny). you see, a HUGE chuck of users who rely on the treo line to act as their phone on a daily basis use it for just that, a phone. they dial numbers, save contacts and send the occasional email. this might seem like a waste of the treo's features or perhaps an underuse of a fantastic tool, but thats just the way it is. in the market i deal with every day, most people use their smartphones (this includes the p900, pda2k, treo and nokia 9210/9500) to the extent that we would use an SE t610. as a simple camera phone. ridiculous as it may seem, a lot of people are content on carrying a phone which simply syncs with outlook and allows the user to take occasional portrait pics here and there. no emailing, no browsing, no MS office use etc... this may seem hard for you guys to understand, but nokia, SE and samsung didnt become the powerhouses they are by selling super advanced smartphones. their best selling phones have always been the simplest, cheapest, and most reliable ones, and most likely will always be.

    the treo 650 is a crazy device, just think of what this thing can do, compared to what other phones in its class can do, and add the fact that it offers the most input methods of any smartphone (i mean no other smartphone offers more methods, but a lot of other phones offer the same amount as the treo) and is to the smartphone market what the ipod is to the portable music market in terms of navigation and ease of us. now, because it's using memory which everyone here seems to think is insufficient or improperly implemented, people are revolting and returning their devices without giving it a second thought.

    u guys remember the clie line from sony, im sure. rememeber how awesome the feature progression and advancement was on the clie line with one upgrade after another coming out within months and with every new upgrade, a new innovative feature which left the competition in the dust. now i ask you this, where is sony's clie now? discontinued, obsolete and pretty much abandonned. not saying that sony is out of the pda market for good, quite the contrary i actually believe theyll come out with a p900 killer at some point which will SERIOUSLY change people's perceptions of what a smartphone should do, and what it should look like. on a side note, the upcomign psp does just that in the portable gaming market. while nintendo is adding screens to its handhelds, sony will be offering wireless connectivity, superior screen crispness, standardised memory accessibility and more. the point im trying to make is that having all the features (more memory, more processor power, more connectivity, higher res cameras and the such) is NOT what the consesus is asking for. WE (i consider myself a power user like all you guys) would definitely expect such improvements to come naturally, but the r&d costs, the design issues and the costs of making such a behemoth whilst keeping the treo form factor and navigation ability (the pda2k does offer all those features, i think, but falls behind in size and ease of use) would be VERY difficult, if not impossible right now given our current technology.

    im not pretending to be an engineer, nor am i assuming the role of palmone advocate to justify the presence of what you see as flaws, im merely trying to make sense of the decision palmone took when it came down to memory. sure, more memory wouldve been nice, but it wouldve cost more for the regular joe schmoe who didnt need it (and dont fool yourself, THATS who palmone is targeting because that's the biggest segment in the mobile phone market) and as the guy at the roadshow said (forgot his name unfortunately), the costs of a 1gig card at the time of production was so low that engineers figured offering more memory as an affordable option would be the ideal alternative to packing 64megs in a phone when most treo users used a fraction of that. i personally think they made the right decision (if the decision was either put 64megs of volatile ram or 32megs of non-volatile flash) because from experience, i KNOW that a huge majority of pda/phone users dont backup their devices, and more often than not dont even install any third party software. this is fact guys, ive seen it myself working at store level and in management. one of the most impactful adverse consequences to using a smartphone as opposed to a regular phone has been that when the battery runs dry on a smartphone, all the memory vanishes and you have to restore everything manually (or from backup if you have one, while as i said, most people dont have). to have included non-volatile memory in the 650 means joe schmoe can now use it as he would his old nokia 3360 or whatever, without worrying about battery and memory loss issues. again, i have to stress the importance of having data which isnt lost following battery drain. i have tried so hard to make people understand that with a 30$ sd card and a 15$ backu program, they can always have peace of mind in the knowledge that the software is backing up all records on a daily basis at a preassigned time and that IF the device were to lose all its data from battery loss or a hard reset, everything could be instantly restored from the mem card, but alas, people still dont like to worry about backing up their PHONES. their PCs, sure, it's something theyve been hardwired to do since they appeared in the consumer markets, but with the advant of smartphones and intelligent devices, it's gonna take a while for joe to program himself to make backups of his portable as well..

    anyways, im not sure if all of this made sense and im afraid a lot of it might have come off as rambling, but i just HAD to share my views on this and hope no one was offended at any point because that was never my intention. these are ALL opinion and i dont speak on behalf of anyo ne but myself. thanks for the forum and i hope we can keep the debate civil!
  13. #133  
    The net is that the 650 is built for the corporate phone user, not for PDA users. Memory has been a problem on my 600 almost since the beginning. I spend far too much time managing memory. There is no way that I am going to replace my 600 with a product that will force me to decide which of my applications to give up to get it.

    I do not think that there is any quick fix to this problem; the design choices made were much too fundamental. I think that those who have purchased the 650 have gotten what they have gotten.

    One can compare the upgrades, models, and options for the Treo to those for other P1 products like the Zire and Tungsten. In the life of the 600, there have been four Tungstens. I think these kinds of incremental improvements to an existing design is where the solution to this problem will come from.

    I like the design choices of the 600 better than those of the 650. I prefer long battery life to replaceable battery. I prefer battery life to a brighter keyboard and higher resolution screen. I prefer more usable memory to more persistent memory. I will stay with the 600 and hope for new models that will create more choices for me.
    Last edited by whmurray; 11/20/2004 at 09:23 AM.
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    Good advice most of the time, but I'm not sure it's relevant here. I tell technology ignorant people I know that they need to hold a digital camera in their hands and not go by solely by the best mega-pixel per dollar count. The thing is that you need a starting point for those tech newbies. You don't give them a 8 mega-pixel camera because that's going to be overkill for them. You don't give them a 1 mega-pixel thing that came from Walmart because they just might want good enough quality to print. Generally it's best to steer people towards at least a 3MP one and go from there. Well the Treo 600 had the camera equivalent of that 3MP. Pretty much towards the bottom, but good enough with some SD card management to work. The Treo 650 doesn't hit that basic threshold anymore. People are realizing that if they had issues with memory on the Treo 600 they will have more issues on the Treo 650. You don't need to have it in your hands to know you'll have more issues.
    Your analogy is a little off. While a 3.1MP camera might be towards the low end of the spectrum in terms of today's camera technology, the Treo 650 (and even the 600) is definately a high-end smartphone. Certainly you would point a newbie photographer at a 3.1MP and that camera would most certainly satisfy that user's needs...UNTIL he/she became a POWER USER. Then that user would demand more quality.

    You're comparing the limited memory in the Treo 650 to the megapixel ratings of cameras and the two are not a good comparison. With a camera, a lower MP rating means poor quality pictures. With the Treo 650, smaller memory doesn't mean that the quality of the programs you are running will be any less. The T650 can still do everything that it is rated to do. The memory issues don't prevent it from being an excellent smartphone.

    Now for a POWER USER, certainly it's an issue. But not everyone is a power user. I AM concerned about the built-in (calendar, contacts, etc.) database size differences. But it shouldn't be enough to prevent someone from at least taking a first-hand look at the phone.
    --Inspector Gadget

    "Go Go Gadget Pre!!"
    Palm Pre on Sprint

    Palm V--> Palm IIIc--> Visor Prism--> Visor Phone--> Treo 270--> Treo 600--> Treo 650-->
    Treo 700wx--> HTC Touch Diamond--> Palm Pre & HTC EVO 4G.
  15. #135  
    SpaceHog, you know I am honest and trustworthy, and when I say something, I mean it. If you know anyone at P1 who might listen, give them this message:

    PalmOne has essentially bungled the design and release of a product that should have put you on the map. Look at the messages on this board. Even without the memory issue, there are innumerable reports of crashes, lock-ups, etc., etc. Even the T600's worked well out of the box, (though many later had hardware problems that were probably due to the choice of manufacturer.) The memory situation is the last straw.

    My status as a PalmOne customer is in serious jeopardy, and there are many on this board who are with me. You do not want to lose us. We, the bleeding edgers, are those who get your products out into the field, where the "average Joes" see us use them, and hopefully then want one for themselves. You have ignored our needs with this phone, and it seems you have released it well before all the bugs were worked out. Personally, I give you guys at P1 until Tuesday to recall the 650 and APOLOGISE for all of this, or I will never buy another P1 product. That is MY bottom line.
    http://www.doctordalai.com
  16. #136  
    - Palm will not fix this issue. Wait a year+ for the next one.

    - You will have to give up some apps and contact/datebook items
    (yes, it is lame the the 270/300 was more functional in this respect than a new 650).

    - This actually bodes negatively for app developers...now customer must be very choosey of which apps they buy, meaning less sales)

    - this was a complete CF just like BT 1.1....but don't worry, you will have the honor of buying essentially the same device next year at full price. (P1 maketing genius...har har).

    - People will still buy the 650 in droves, basically taking all the "not enough memory" complainers and throwing them under the bus.

    - As soon as an MS device in the same form factor occurs, people will switch in droves.
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalai Lama
    ......You do not want to lose us. .....
    Perhaps not. However, I think they made the choice conciously. I think they built this phone for the carriers, particularly Sprint, and their customers. They may outnumber us 100 to 1.
  18. #138  
    Sorry guys ... not a time to laugh, I know. But, this should have been expected with the hype P1 was putting out there on this device, with little real information.

    What is Bush's favorite line? "Fool me once, shame on me, Fool me twice ...." Well, you know the rest.

    This situation is really bad, and all you loyal Treo users are getting really stung badly. Even with a recall, what a pain in the ****. With a slow P1 "upgrade"...hell, it took P1 over a year to "upgrade" the 600 to the 650, and look at this mess.

    P1 really messed up, and they knew it way before this was released. It is sad to hear some loyal fans on here trying to justify the flub, trying to compromise by saying "this is just supposed to be a corporate phone only, not meant to be a true pda." Come on guys, this was supposed to be "IT" but P1 really messed up.

    I wonder how many are racing to grab the PPC6601 while they still can. I have not heard nearly the complaints about it. I think Treo diehards will hold out for the Treo 650 FIX (that Peter only "suspects" will be "addressed", with no commitment (as is typical of P1)), but 99% of those on the fence will probably give P1 the boot and at least give the PPC 660x a try.

    Very sad day for Treo fans.
  19. #139  
    The Treo has been, and always will be a PDA first and phone second.

    Sorry to break the news to you, but them's the facts.

    I diagree that adding more than 23MB usuable memory (which is all that counts) is a big engineering issue...it is actually one of the easiest, given memory is so readily available and cheap.

    And the whole push to use SD cards is lame. They pop out when you use them will a case (very annoying, again not fixed in 650), and they are not a solution for run-time apps. It also takes away the ability to use the slot for something else.

    anyway, we are screwed, but will keep buying the device because of the form factor.
  20. 1SFG's Avatar
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    #140  
    i've owned a palm pda of some sort since undergrad (figure somewhere between '94-'98). Not as long as most of you guys here, but a decade is still a decent amount of time. I relied heavily on it in the latter years of undergrad, throughout my three years of law school and even managed to continue using it through my relatively short military career. In that time contacts have come and gone and yet after a decade, and managing my contacts (i.e. deleting people i'll never call) I've managed to amass 81 contact! If I can't hold 81 contacts, then I have a problem. If I can't double that number to say 200 contacts and still save a few memos and to-do lists in memory, then I really have problem. I rarely use my cell phone's web browsing capabilities - doubt I'll be doing so with the 650 either. When I would use it would be for times like last night, when I got a flat and discovered the dealership butchered my wheel lock rending me a man with a jack and a spare that can't be mounted. Kept thinking to myself that if I had the treo I could have jumped on audiworld.com and requested some assistance from the mid atlantic guys.

    My point is palmOne probably realizes that the majority of the folks that buy this thing will be just like me - very light users. Sure it doesn't make sense to pay $600 if I'm not taking full advantage of the features, but then again I probably wouldn't be buying but save the viennachannels coupon. Does this excuse P1 from poor planning and execution - probably not, but much as has been my experience on audi discussion forums, or any discussion forum for that matter - you rarely hear about the positives, the people who are using it, who love it and aren't having any trouble with it. What you do hear are the negatives, and that's what we have hear. Certainly this is a sounding board, but I'm still not sure this has risen to the level of clamour that would scream to P1 "danger danger will robinson..."


    Quote Originally Posted by spacehog
    ok guys i have somewhat of a small rant to offer to readers of treocentral, and this time, it's not directed at palmone but at you guys. yes, you loyal, dedicated, hardcore, enthusiasts who are living on the bleeding edge, or demand and expect vendors to come out with exactly what YOURE looking for...
    1st SFG (A)

    if at first you don't succeed - RELOAD!
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