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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by RonlTreo
    As a product manager for a technology company, I feel that I need to respond to this thread. There are always tradeoffs - no company has infinite resources (even Microsoft is cutting back...). We have brilliant engineers and I hope that I am not a slouch either. However, time, money, and the 'sweet spot' all need to be considered. I talk with my customers all the time and know what they want. A small number of them may want a feature that will take a long time to create and we'll never make back the cost in profits, or to include it we'll have to drop a different feature that we think will get *new* customers. In fact, a feature that a small number of customers want in a piece of hardware might make the variable cost too high and price the unit out of the market. So possibly I lose a few customers who are unhappy that I don't have their pet feature in the new product (few is relative here) but yet I increase my overall sales because I hit the sweet spot. Meanwhile, you NEVER tell a customer that their feature didn't make it because you just don't have the budget for it. That is what marketeers get paid for. So as was said above, "Of course, they may have research that says 98% of their expected user base will never have memory problems with the 32MBs." If this is the case then they made a very intelligent trade-off to hit that sweet spot (perhaps it was an extra 32 mb versus Bluetooth) - and the 2% loss may not be worth worrying about.
    In a somewhat simliar role in my organization, I can honestly say that everyone knows that bean counters exist.

    That, and even the best research may still suck. 23mb - 30%-40% being a great example.

    Real world testing is the best solution. Throw the widget against your poweruser base, and see what happens. This doesnt seem to have been done here.
  2. #82  
    RWerksman "Real world testing is the best solution. Throw the widget against your poweruser base, and see what happens. This doesnt seem to have been done here."

    This was the point I was trying to make earlier. I am just about to start some research on a handset where we place the phone with the intended user base and let them play with it and the software etc for a couple of weeks and then get them back to tell us about the expience and then refine based on this real life feedback (PS they even get to keep the $500+ phone) - not rocket science - we do this even with floor cleaners and pasta sauces for crying out loud before we take themn to market.

    Cheers
    BBKBAZ

    PS P1 I and my company would be willing to do the research projects for you in the future
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by kschoenberg
    Hahahaha! Yep...Handspring never released phones with obvious faults or deficiences.

    Well, except for the totally useless battery life on the 300...oh, and the hinges that kept breaking and the battery that just stops charging after a little over a year. Oh, and then there's the turbo-drain problem.

    Then there's the out of the box deficiencies of the 600. Start with Handspring not even bothering to release it with a mail client to the myriad of hardware defects. You know little things like a SD Card slot that allows parts of most cards to stick out to headset ports that won't accept most 3rd party headsets without the plug casing being modified.

    No, I'd say Handspring made more than their fair share of mistakes. As has Palm. They rushed it out to hit the Christmas season and cut corners where they could to save a few bucks and increase margin.

    Of course, the may have research that says 98% of their expected userbase will never have memory problems with the 32MBs.
    I never said the "Handspring never released phones with obvious faults or deficiences"

    My point was, and still is, I don't think this ( the memory issue) would have happend with HS. They seem more "geek" based (lack of a better word). They were the ones that didn't like the direction the company was going and started their own and with out them, there woud be no Treo at all. You know, designed my geeks, made for geeks, by geeks (I use geeks in a good way, much like Best Buy has now coined the phrase) Palm seem to think it was silly back then, not untill the SPrint300 did it seem like a not so bad idea to Palm I bet, hence them buying HS.

    The issues that HS had were they were ahead of their time and like apple, they make somthing ahead of it's time, then others copy later and then it catches on. HS was WAY SMALLER then Palm, their pockets were no where as deep and if I remember, they were almost bankrupt and had all their eggs in one basket.

    Remember, there was no phone like this before HS made it, they were the first, there will be issues.
    The no email client was a Sprint deal, not HS. The turbo drain was when you were in a poor reception area, once again, carrier. IF the phone didn't have to power up so high to get the trace signal to the tower and such, this would not be an issue. If they 'fixed' this, then there would be all the befes about the phone being so huge due to the bigger battery, or no coverage. The old, my friends phone can get a signal with one bar in BFE and I can't. So you can't get a signal in BFE, but your battery still works.

    Palm was working with a proven idea, HS had all their eggs in one idea, were on the cutting edge and put it ALL on the line. If the Treo didn't work, either did they, it was all or noting, Wright Brothers verses the others that saw what they did and then took it and ran.

    I still stand behind my betting that this would not have happend with HS, becuase there was not the sales and the suits and the bean counters and all that jazz to contend with, they were just some people, so I doubt the suits at HS would have said, oh yea, 512bytes is fine for a packet (or what ever they call it) verse 15-50 and who would ever need more then 32M of memory.The reason I doubt this, they were the suits, and the sales and the ... you get the point I hope.

    I had one Treo300 and no issues, I had one treo600 and no issues. These are not toys, you can't throw them arround, let the clam shell smack close by itself and such, it a $600 tool, closer to a thousand and a couple hundred. Treat it like a $600 device and it will treat you right. Perhaps I was lucky?

    So HS was not perfect, they had issues, I also think there were reasons, not all vaid perhaps, but I could intertain them. Palm is different, they are bigger, have more reasorces and took HS's idea that WAS WORKING already and tried to improve it to make the all mighty dollar and wanted to save a few in the way and goofed.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by midmofan
    Just got this back about 5 min. after my email:


    Hi Don,

    Thanks for the note. We have been discussing this a lot recently and I
    appreciate the detailed feedback. I think you have the moral high
    ground here and I can tell you this message was delivered continuously from
    other participants of the road show.


    We'll fix it. I can't say when, but this is something we will address.

    Cheers,

    Peter
    What troubles me about this statement is that it can very easily be interpreted as "we'll address it in the next model." There's nothing in any of the statements from P1 that indicates to me that they're going to "fix" the 650. "I can't say when," and "we will address," are as vague as they can possibly be.

    I'm withholding judgement until I can try one with my apps and my databases. My 600 doesn't have a ton of apps loaded "just because." Except for a backgammon game, I use every app I've got installed on a pretty regular basis. If they won't fit on the 650, I can't use it.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  5. #85  
    I have seen several people suggest that one way around the memory issue is to reduce the number of applications installed. The lack of sufficient memory on this device could hurt many developers through lost sales and that would hurt the entire Palm user community as well as Palm itself.

    Palm has always relied on thousands of small (and large) developers to fill in the gaps in the Palm products functionality as well as to extend that functionality. How many of use would be happy with our 600's using them as Palm shipped them to us? The appeal of the 600 and the 650 is as much what they can be made to do as what they come configured to do. Palm still speaks of the "Palm Economy" as one of the strenghts of their platform vs. Microsoft.

    Palm made a cost/benefit decision in chosing the amount of usable memory for the 650. Palmone's decision may have been influenced by the price point demands of the carriers (which I suspect) or Palmone's need to meet investor demands. Whatever the influence, the decision was clearly Palmone centric rather than user centric. It may give them the short term benefit of lower costs, but will cost them long term in lost sales for Pamlone itself and for their developers. If the developers are hurt financialy by lost sales due to insufficient space on the 650 for their products and begin to desert the platform, Palm products will lose much of their benefit relative to their competition and users will lose the advantage of the additional functionality these developers have provided. Without those developers Palm products, the 650 in particular, will look weak compared to their competition since they ship with less built-in capabilities than some of the price competitive Microsoft based phones.

    What may be more important in the long term is that Palmone could lose the loyalty of their customer base. Customers will not stay loyal for long if they do not believe they are being heard and do not believe their needs are being met. The converged device catagory is just beginning to grow. Palmone has enjoyed a substantial lead in the catagory, particularly in the US. If they lose the loyalty of their customers, they lose the value of their brand and will ultimately lose the trade war in converged devices.

    I do not mean to imply the all is lost for Palmone due to an error in judgement about the amount of usable memory on the Treo 650. They made many other correct decisions with this device. If they address the memory issue openly, honestly and quickly, they could redemem themselves quickly. My real concern is the display of insensitivity to the needs of the two groups most responsible for their success; their users and their developers. Palm could be remembered as the company that created a catagory rather than the one who dominates it unless their approach to product decisions changes.
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by midmofan
    We'll fix it. I can't say when, but this is something we will address.

    Cheers,

    Peter
    We'll just put this fix on the "to be fixed" list.

    Other things on the list include:

    - T300 hinge cracks
    - T600 wifi
    - T600 bluetooth (not just data)
    - T650 wifi
    - 3-way calling hang up
    - etc...
  7. #87  
    So do you think that they will have the memory fix in the same flash update that has the wi-fi drivers for sdio cards? (time frame = next model/never).
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by mbrenner
    So do you think that they will have the memory fix in the same flash update that has the wi-fi drivers for sdio cards? (time frame = next model/never).
    They'll never be truely fixed, they may be mitigated in the next model.

    Seriously, if anyone is really expecting a fix, don't. There is no track record of major issues like this being truely fixed by P1 or Handspring.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by RWerksman
    They'll never be truely fixed, they may be mitigated in the next model.

    Seriously, if anyone is really expecting a fix, don't. There is no track record of major issues like this being truely fixed by P1 or Handspring.
    That is exactly why I already have my return package on its way!
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by RWerksman
    They'll never be truely fixed, they may be mitigated in the next model.

    Seriously, if anyone is really expecting a fix, don't. There is no track record of major issues like this being truely fixed by P1 or Handspring.
    when the prism was released by handspring, it had a hard time identifying the taps on the screen. handspring came out with a fix.

    it was so ong ago, a forget what the issue was, but the deluxes also needed a patch.

    and of corse the 270 needed the gprs patch.
    Felipe
    On the road to 5,000 posts
    Life is what happens between Firmware releases.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by RonlTreo
    As a product manager for a technology company, I feel that I need to respond to this thread. There are always tradeoffs - no company has infinite resources (even Microsoft is cutting back...). We have brilliant engineers and I hope that I am not a slouch either. However, time, money, and the 'sweet spot' all need to be considered. I talk with my customers all the time and know what they want. A small number of them may want a feature that will take a long time to create and we'll never make back the cost in profits, or to include it we'll have to drop a different feature that we think will get *new* customers. In fact, a feature that a small number of customers want in a piece of hardware might make the variable cost too high and price the unit out of the market. So possibly I lose a few customers who are unhappy that I don't have their pet feature in the new product (few is relative here) but yet I increase my overall sales because I hit the sweet spot. Meanwhile, you NEVER tell a customer that their feature didn't make it because you just don't have the budget for it. That is what marketeers get paid for. So as was said above, "Of course, they may have research that says 98% of their expected user base will never have memory problems with the 32MBs." If this is the case then they made a very intelligent trade-off to hit that sweet spot (perhaps it was an extra 32 mb versus Bluetooth) - and the 2% loss may not be worth worrying about.
    As a senior software engineer my group runs across these tradeoffs everyday. We realize that we can't make every aspect of our product better each release, but we do make sure that the core features and tasks are at least as good as the previous version. These are the things that our customers have gotten used to and rely on. You can't just cut out the core feature for some new features that may or may not turn out be hits with your customer base.

    I can't think of a single example of hardware regression in a next generation product, much less one that could be 30% less efficient or more. Think about what we'd all be saying if the screen in the Treo 650 was a 120x120? That's pretty much equivalent to what this is. You have to begin with where you left off before and improve from there.

    This isn't about finding a sweet spot. They could always have cut some other corner like the full Docs to Go or something like that. They could even have used a battery with lower mAh and been able to say that it's replaceable now, so it's an overall upgrade. This was clearly a case where the people deciding the hardware didn't talk with the engineers about the new memory allocation.

    I can't believe that the people at Palm didn't realize this long before now. These are people who presumably use their own product, probably even more than the most power users on this board. It's their job. It's what they do at least 8 hours a day. I don't know how this slips by.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by Felipe
    when the prism was released by handspring, it had a hard time identifying the taps on the screen. handspring came out with a fix.

    it was so ong ago, a forget what the issue was, but the deluxes also needed a patch.

    and of corse the 270 needed the gprs patch.
    The T270 GPRS patch was released (in beta) about the same time the T270 started to ship. (from what I can remember)

    From where I stand, it was not to fix an issue with the phone, it was something to enable an advertised feature of the phone that was not finished in time for the initial release. It was like P1 having a patch to enable bluetooth on the T650.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by RWerksman
    The T270 GPRS patch was released (in beta) about the same time the T270 started to ship. (from what I can remember)

    From where I stand, it was not to fix an issue with the phone, it was something to enable an advertised feature of the phone that was not finished in time for the initial release. It was like P1 having a patch to enable bluetooth on the T650.

    that is why i put the smily at the end of that one.

    as far as the gprs patch, it was a roll out and not all carrier had it at the same time. unless of corse you did a little hacking. i waited the t-mo version. which didnt take for me and i got another phone with it already applied.
    Felipe
    On the road to 5,000 posts
    Life is what happens between Firmware releases.
  14. #94  
    I hate to say I told ya so, but a couple months back I mentioned this would be an issue.

    For all the happy horseshyte emails, there will be no fix for this.

    it is a fundamental flaw, just like using BT 1.1 instead of 1.2.

    the "fix" is to buy a Treo 700 next year, assuming Palm can execute that fast (unlikely).
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland

    I can't think of a single example of hardware regression in a next generation product, much less one that could be 30% less efficient or more. Think about what we'd all be saying if the screen in the Treo 650 was a 120x120? That's pretty much equivalent to what this is. You have to begin with where you left off before and improve from there.

    This isn't about finding a sweet spot. They could always have cut some other corner like the full Docs to Go or something like that. They could even have used a battery with lower mAh and been able to say that it's replaceable now, so it's an overall upgrade. This was clearly a case where the people deciding the hardware didn't talk with the engineers about the new memory allocation.
    Yes, the memory may be 30% less efficient, but keep in mind that the memory is also now non-volatile, meaning that customers won't lose data if the battery goes out. This is the trade off that P1 made, and you can argue forever if this was the right trade off. However, to say that it is a hardware regression, it is simply not right. For many users, data protection is far more important than extra built-in memory.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by Felipe
    that is why i put the smily at the end of that one.

    as far as the gprs patch, it was a roll out and not all carrier had it at the same time. unless of corse you did a little hacking. i waited the t-mo version. which didnt take for me and i got another phone with it already applied.
    lol. Im being dense tonight.
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rome
    Yes, the memory may be 30% less efficient, but keep in mind that the memory is also now non-volatile, meaning that customers won't lose data if the battery goes out. This is the trade off that P1 made, and you can argue forever if this was the right trade off. However, to say that it is a hardware regression, it is simply not right. For many users, data protection is far more important than extra built-in memory.
    I think if you survey 1000 Palm users, 900 or so would perfer an extra 32mb of ram in the Treo instead of a 30% decrease and having it be non-volatile.

    Its a step down, bottom line.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by RWerksman
    I think if you survey 1000 Palm users, 900 or so would perfer an extra 32mb of ram in the Treo instead of a 30% decrease and having it be non-volatile.

    Its a step down, bottom line.
    It is clearly a step down!

    I can not do the same thing with the 650 that I have been doing for a year on the 600. It has nothing to do with OS changes and conflicts. The "new and improved" hardware just isn't capable of it.

    Step up or down??????

    Think about it!
  19. #99  
    Palm1 has no choice but to fix this issue. It doesn't take much to make a customer happy but it will take much more to bring back a customer that feels betrayed and marginalized. Palm1 this could be the beginning of the end or your time to shine. This group is vocal, savy, intelligent and most important your target market.

    Actions speak louder than words. Standup, fix the problem and enjoy the reward. Ignore the issue and suffer the consequences.
  20. #100  
    I was wondering if there is a patch announced for the memory issues.
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