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  1.    #1  
    OK after attending the roadshow, I am convinced that, although P1 was not interested in creating a cutting edge device, they actually were listening to 600 user complaints and 650 beta-testers as they developed the final 650. The low-light camera, better browser, BT, blackberry (comming soon), the keyboard style and keeping of reversed number coloring and (I hope) respolved QC issues, were all the result of P1 listening to what the consumer wanted.

    So what happend with the memory? It is the single biggest problem with the 650, IMO, and if you read the interviews and reactions at the roadshows, the P1 people seemed honestly suprised that this is an issue.

    Well total speculation here, but I think the biggest problem is WHO they have testing the device. I know, from talking with Sprint, that a number of their upper level execs had had the devices for a while and had to fill out evaluations on them. I'm sure that other execs at other Carriers did the same.

    So with this group I see several problems. 1) Upper level execs are not necessarily the types that would add a lot of 3rd party apps to a 650 (or maybe even know how!). 2) Corporate types, in general, may not be allowed to add to the software they get on a company phone, especially a beta-test phone.

    Likewise, you can't give a device to someone for a couple of weeks or even months and have them likely max out the memory in that short of a time thanks to big complicated apps. The things this group COULD easily use a lot of memory for, such as photos and music ARE easily addressed by SD cards. In fact, in many ways ,that is a better solution for photos and music or at least it is a solution that many users are used to in other devices.

    So it would be unlikely that any of those people were adding high-memory-demand apps. Thus, they would not have run into memory problems. By contrast, this is just the type of group that would complain if it was hard to find the number keys on the keypad, the camera was crappy or if they didnt want to have to use a cable to sync to their desktop.

    What about 600 complaints? I have not done a search on the board, but I don't recall lack of memory being one of the major issues that I heard people complaining about with the 600 until the map programs started comming out very recently. I could be wrong, but, even if it was mentioned, i dont remember memory being a burning issue like the low-res screen and QC issues were. I'm not saying that folks didnt run into memory issues, but it was not something that people were drum-beating about to P1 as they were with other things. Again it makes sense. What would be your main complaint if you had to send your 600 back 3-4 times because it was poorly made or had bugs? In fact, there its probably been just recently that many people have had non-self-destructing 600s long enough to really start having the memory issues effect them on a regular basis.

    So, next time P1, send a few samples to us geeks at the TC, forum let US play with it for a while and post here our reactions and feedback, we know you read the board so why not give us a group beta-test opprotunity!!!!
  2. #2  
    Maybe I misunderstood, but from what I recently read in that article from Red Mercury Software (or whatever their name is), the new memory model on the 650 means that the amount of internal memory of a Palm device now is no longer as important as it was previously.
  3. #3  
    Interesting points. However, I am sure there are plenty of geeks on the palmOne staff and these people know that there are many more geeks like them out there stuffing their devices till they're busting at the seams. The Palm community is an old one and veteran Palm users (which many palmOne people are) are definitely not blind to the demographic you are talking about.

    I think P1 made a concious decision knowing all this. This may be a perfect example of the 80-20 rule.
  4. #4  
    I think I believe the rumor that they had a lot of 32MB chips left around. Imagine the business decision of using equipment you have on hand and writing something so that people can use their SD cards or trashing all that good product and spending more money on 64MB chips. I have to agree that I don't like it, but I don't think it's hard to see what people were thinking.
  5. #5  
    You realize people that surf on this board (who gather every day) to talk at nuasiam about the Treo are not representative of the general market right?

    They could have done extensive studies with user groups. I bet the average person "might" add 1 or two programs and that's all they do the whole time they own the phone.

    It's only power users...like the people who gather here who load their phones with features and functionality.

    They may very well have info that supports a decision for 32 MB is fine for the bulk of users. You have to realize power users are a VERY small minority.
  6.    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by silverado
    Interesting points. However, I am sure there are plenty of geeks on the palmOne staff and these people know that there are many more geeks like them out there stuffing their devices till they're busting at the seams. The Palm community is an old one and veteran Palm users (which many palmOne people are) are definitely not blind to the demographic you are talking about.

    I think P1 made a concious decision knowing all this. This may be a perfect example of the 80-20 rule.
    Perhaps, but the P1 types that have been interviewed, the reports from a couple of the roadshows and my experiance at chicago all seem to show that they were surprised at the reaction to the lack of memory. Two of the vendors at the chicago show were not happy with it and, like I said, one program wouldnt run because of lack of memory on the guys 650.

    Unfortunatly, perhaps, the pure tech types do not seem to be the ones that were making the decisions on the 650. It was more the marketing people. In many ways and for many people, that was good since they focused on some key areas that were important to users, reliability, ease of use and so forth. But that leaves out the ones that are most likely to use up the memory with power-apps. And again, the biggest problem I see is that the 650 just begs for more and more power apps that nobody has even written yet, the form factor and screen are just that good.
    As to the new memory layout. It may make it not as important. But if you have 2meg left and want to use a 5 meg map, or add a 3meg program that won't run off of an SD card you gots a problem!
  7. #7  
    At the roadshow, when I asked aa PalmOne official about the lack of memory he just looked at me, smiled and said: "It's all about cost"...

    I told him I was one of the guys who had my original Palm V sent off to have an 8 meg chip put in it... He just smiled again... Like I was a fanatic...

    Interestingly, if I remember right, he was also carrying a T5 or some other P1 device with a lot more memory...

    So in fact he wasn't trying to live within the constraints of carrying one machine for everything...

    Like it's previously been discussed, the cost to at least double the memory couldn't have been much.

    And no... adding an SD card doesn't solve the problem You don't want your apps and db's on an external card. The built in camera writes to internal ram, and audio recorders can't write to the cards fast enough....
  8. #8  
    It's 32Mb of non-volitile memory. If the power runs out, the data stays, it requires no electrical input to maintain. This is what was said at the Chicago road show. The type of memory changed and it forced them to redo how memory is handled.

    The word from the horse's mouth is that Treo users don't max out their devices, and those that do can and will use SD cards to expand.

    Pure tech types are a nice niche for Palm, but breaking the Treo out as a mainstream device would be a lot more revenue.

    c
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by IamVincent
    The built in camera writes to internal ram, and audio recorders can't write to the cards fast enough....
    Actually, the camera will now write directly to the SD card... and with the faster processor, audio recording should not be an issue either.

    The 80/20 rule is a perfect example... P1 addressed 80% of the users needs/wants for 20% of the effort. That equals PROFIT... which, lest we all forget, is what P1 is in the business of.

    I'm sure they saw little reason to address issues that 20% of Treo users report. Granted, most of us may be in that 20%... this is what we deal with.

    While we are busy griping about P1 not making the PERFECT device, they are busy figuring about how to make a device that will make MAD CASH, for the least amount of effort. That's just the way it works.
    <br><a href="http://www.theused.net/"><img src="http://www.theused.net/images/buddyIcons/buddy_used_02.gif"></a><br><br>Forever in search of the next best thing... is that the 700w?
  10. #10  
    Actually, I'm fine with the memory and have not come close to using the current memory in my T600. I still have 11 MB free. I have quite a few games & apps on it and I use Snapper Mail, Chatter, Intelligolf and a few other things.

    I have pics and mp3's on my SD card and that is just fine for me.
  11. #11  
    Except that that doesn't seem to fit with the new T5 having so much memory.
    Coming from product marketing I do find it hard to see how they thought launching a new product with less memory than it's predecessor wasn't asking for trouble and it really puts them at a competitive dissadvantage, I would love to see the competitive/cost benefit analysis that they did!
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo-mike
    You realize people that surf on this board (who gather every day) to talk at nuasiam about the Treo are not representative of the general market right?

    They could have done extensive studies with user groups. I bet the average person "might" add 1 or two programs and that's all they do the whole time they own the phone.

    It's only power users...like the people who gather here who load their phones with features and functionality.

    They may very well have info that supports a decision for 32 MB is fine for the bulk of users. You have to realize power users are a VERY small minority.
    You are exactly right and I have been making similar comments throughout many threads. The people here are definitely a minority. This goes right in line with the expectations that store reps know everything there is to know about this phone, etc. The truth is, we know more about the phone than the people we are buying it from (except of course people directly associated with palmone, etc). Good comments.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by IamVincent
    And no... adding an SD card doesn't solve the problem You don't want your apps and db's on an external card. The built in camera writes to internal ram, and audio recorders can't write to the cards fast enough....
    My 2 year old SonyNX60 records audio to the memory stick with no problem.

    I think P1 was trying to hit the pricing sweet spot. Most of us here would not have a problem paying an extra $100 to get 128MB, or 256, of RAM. But I bet they discovered the carriers would balk at the added cost realising it would be VERY hard to sell people a $700 device, no matter what it could do. This way they can keep it under $500 for the new subscribers and those of with SPCS phones older than 18 months.

    I personally can't wait to upgrade from my T600 to the T650 because the of the improved screen, bluetooth and improved battery(and removable) life. I was tempted by the PPC6601 but I just love the PalmOS and try to limit my use of MS Windows of any form.
  14.    #14  
    The problem with the 80/20 rule is that, in this case, I think they misjudged both the makeup of the 80/20, the device itself, and the potential competition.

    As people who actually use the device on a daily basis discover the potential capabilities of the and as developers exploit those capabilities there will be more and more pressure on the available memory. It will not be long before the lack of memory is, at the very least, an inconvienence for both the 20% AND the 80%. Even for the average user, they will not want to have to clean off or swap all the games and other apps they collect over time.

    Yes for many memory issues there are work-arounds or compormises, but that is not what you want for the "80%" of folks that see killer apps and want to simply load them and run them, or dont want the hassle of managing the available memory so they can download their 15th different blackjack version.

    In this case, eventually, the 80% will be the people that want to load up the 650 without needing to fiddle with ZLauncher or other work arounds. The "20%" will be the real tech types that know how to deal with the situation and work around it.

    Handing out phones to Sprint VPs or others on a short-term basis, won't get you that kind of feedback. BUT if it starts to turn out that people migrate to other devices because they can more easily do what they want, then that will be a problem for P1.

    Again the key thing I am taking from all of this is the genuine surprise that I am seeing from P1 that anybody is rasing this concern in the first place. That, the reaction of the vendors I talked to, and their defensive response, tells me they missed the boat on this one. The impression they give is not that they knew this was an issue and made a cost/benifit decision that some my disagree with. It is like they didnt consider it and issue at all since the folks they surveyed were not using all of the memory available on the 600.

    Now, I am still getting a 650. I know I how to handle the memory issues and when I get some for my business, they will be limited to what they can load on them anyway, so I don't anticipate a problem for me. BUT it will be for some people.

    In short, I think they will find that, for all the good they did with the 650, they made a mistake on this issue.
  15. #15  
    Maybe I'm the eternal optimist, but I have to believe that the developers of any app which the 650's limited memory may limit acceptance of would take steps appropriate to circumvent (e.g. memory card support) the problem. Of course, I'm primarily talking enterprise solutions here.

    I'm also willing to bet that nearly all of us could improve our memory management. If I threw the stuff away that I don't use, moved media items like pics to the SD card, etc., I'd have tons of memory available (instead of just 8MB).

    Todd/Indy
  16. #16  
    As far as I understand the Treo 650 ram has 32 MB SDRAM of which only 23 MB 'accessible' to user while the remaining 11 MB used as heap to keep sync with Nand. The 32 MB of NAND kept in constantly kept in sync via heap in the backround. There also is an undisclosed amount of Rom is suppose (size of which I don't know) and possibly 'bulitin' ram. Thus to increase the amount of Ram in the 650 using NVFS, PalmOne would have to have at least used a total of 128 of MB of ram. It is quite possible imo that cost considerations could indeed have swayed the design decision maker to opt for only "32 MB" of ram as a result in additon to other issues like power etc. Of course, many other pda devices like MDAIII and x50v have much larger amounts of Ram and Nand storage, but none of these devices offer the seamless automatic backup sys the Treo 650 does and none of them use Nand as the primary type of Ram...
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  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo-mike
    You realize people that surf on this board (who gather every day) to talk at nuasiam about the Treo are not representative of the general market right?

    They could have done extensive studies with user groups. I bet the average person "might" add 1 or two programs and that's all they do the whole time they own the phone.

    It's only power users...like the people who gather here who load their phones with features and functionality.

    They may very well have info that supports a decision for 32 MB is fine for the bulk of users. You have to realize power users are a VERY small minority.
    Treo-Mike (and Gfunk too):

    If that is correct, why did they add 256mb to the T5?
    Last edited by dstrauss; 11/11/2004 at 10:07 AM.
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  18. #18  
    I can't say for sure. I would suspect it's a different user base with slightly different needs than smartphone users.

    I would like to provide an example for you all. The president of our company really wanted a Treo. He liked the idea of having his calendar with him and getting his e-mail on the fly. So he got one...

    He had never really used a Palm pda before and didn't know all the programs or capabilities...so he was happily using his treo right out of the box (more or less) for months.

    I eventually gave him SnapperMail and Docs 2 Go (which made hime quite happy). So now he uses those apps and still has a large majority of his Treo's memory free.

    To him, the Treo was a phone that would synch his Outlook calendar and fetch his e-mail - nothing more. I think you will all agree the Treo does a wonderful job of this without needing any more memory.

    I will provide another example...the CEO and entire executive team of the company that owns our company also all have Treos. None of them even get their e-mail on it...they just use it for contacts and Calendar. I was talking to the CEO and he didn't even know he could get other programs for it.

    These are the people that are buying Treos en mass...so don't be surprised when the "average" user had no need for more memory...nor did they have the willingness to pay for it.

    For the record, I would have like to see more memory in the Treo...at least 64...but I do understand why that extra memory is not there.
    Last edited by treo-mike; 11/11/2004 at 12:57 PM.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo-mike
    I can't say for sure. I would suspect it's a different user base with slightly different needs than smartphone users.

    I would like to provice and example for you all. The president of our company really wanted a Treo. He liked the idea of having his calendar with him and getting his e-mail on the fly. So he got one...

    He had never really used a Palm pda before and didn't know all the programs or capabilities...so he was happily using his treo right out of the box (more or less) for months.

    I eventually gave him SnapperMail and Docs 2 Go (which made hime quite happy). So now he uses those apps and still has a large majority of his Treo's memory free.

    To him, the Treo was a phone that would synch his Outlook calendar and fetch his e-mail - nothing more. I think you will all agree the Treo does a wonderful job of this without needing any more memory.

    I will provide another example...the CEO and entire executive team of the company that owns our company also all have Treos. None of them even get their e-mail on it...they just use it for contacts and Calendar. I was talking to the CEO and he didn't even know he could get other programs for it.

    These are the people that are buying Treos en mass...so don't be surprised when the "average" user had no need for more memory...nor did they have the willingness to pay for it.

    For the record, I would have like to see more memory in the Treo...at least 64...but I do understand why that extra memory is not there.
    Some of your points I agree with. I don't agree on the market. Treo 650's NUMBER ONE competitor is BlackBerry.

    What company's these days don't have wireless PUSH email to their executives? Thats CRAZY. Its a no brainer, slam dunk, clear as a sunny day, return on investment. Also something that sets up in 1 day.
  20. #20  
    Not sure what your comments have to do with a lack of memory...the subject of this thread...

    What company's these days don't have wireless push??? Well it's over a billion dollar company traded on the Nasdaq...and they don't have it...so I guess your assumption isn't bang on either.
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