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  1. #121  
    AWS has 4 networks. Some old analog, some TDMA (what you used before SIM cards), GSM in most areas, and WCDMA (the future) in a few cities
    La Vie En Diaspora: Enfin, une émission qui raconte votre vie aux Etats-Unis

    Treo 600 in December '03, Treo 650 in February '05, HTC TyTN Pro in August '06, and back to Treo 750 in January '07, find me at MyTreo.net

    About me: story of the 100thMonkey
  2. #122  
    I completely forgot about the analog stuff. I did not know that WCDMA was a network type. I thought it was a protocol for data like GPRS, and EDGE. Well...you learn something everyday.
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by Physician User
    i'm a little confused. Wasn't ATT CDMA or other before? Now I see tha ATT touts is system as GSM. For years I had ATT before they had SIM cards from 1998 - 2001. The service was incredible until it started to wittle down in 2001 for no reason. I moved then from los angeles to st. louis and it got worse. I switched to GSM T-mobile and now I couldn't be happier for the past 3 year!

    So is ATT GSM or not? My friend has ATT right now but doesn't have a SIM card.
    ATT Wireless/Cellular One started with AMPS analog. They added TDMA as their first Digital technology. About 4 years ago there was a strong debate at ATT about what 2nd generation digital technology they would adopt. Their decision would also influence BellSouth Mobility and SBC and Cingular. The early favorite was CDMA which would have created a North American standard of CDMA.

    An investment by NTT Docomo of Japan into ATT Wirless led to the adoption of GSM by ATT Wireless and then Cingular.

    This led to the transition of the Cingular and ATT Wirelsss technologies to GAIT (AMPS/TDMA/GSM) phones and now to GSM only phones.

    ATT Wireless never supported CDMA.

    One interesting technology issue is that some of the advanced GSM technologies being discussed is that they are all varients of CDMA (I believe CDMA 2000). It is possible then that the next generation of digital phone infrastruction (after EDGE) will all be a version of CDMA and we may finally approach a global standard.
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by specimen38
    dstrauss,

    I think your perspective is USA-centric. I truly understand your position because I am more US based than abroad. However, from these forums I have learned two things: there are a number of Europeons members on TreoCentral and secondly, there are a number of members who travel to Europe frequently.

    Everything is relative = EDGE is only slightly faster than Vision. If you like Sprint CDMA, it's clear you should stay with them. However, I think there is a lot of irrational behavior going on. From reasonably objective data, Verizon is #1 in coverage, customer service, & customer satisfaction. [Don't quote me, but I think Verizon is rated best carrier by J.D. Powers & Associates] In addition, Verizon is known for its careful testing and implemention of its CDMA technology. I am with AT&T and I am impatient. I am hoping I can refrain from being impulsive about my purchase of the Treo 650 and a new carrier. I would consider Sprint, but they are not the best CDMA carrier. However, Sprint is good just not the best. GSM is going to get better, but it depends on what's important to you. AT&T and Cingular are not the best carriers. They're Okay. I might be willing to accept "okay" if it falls within a pattern consistent with my Treo 650 useage. I think they call that "relativism."
    Very nice post. I have been a customer of ATT Wireless/Cellular One/Bell South Mobility/PowerTell/Sprint/Cingular/Verizon/TMobile/Cellular South/Cingular customer in order since our first cell phone. We currently use Cellular South (regional CDMA with a national plan) and Cingular (national GAIT Plan).

    The very best network we used was Verizon, exept when we were moving to an area without Verizon Service. TMobile had good but limited 1900 mhz only GSM service. Real problems when out of network. Cellular South is regional, very limited phone and service options, but good prices and very good local coverage, much better than Sprint or Verizon. Cingular also has very good local service and coverage, much better since the ATT Wireless merger.

    Because of my desire for a smartphone, I personally cannot use Cellular South, but the rest of my family does for basic phone service. I use Cingular and I am relatively happy. Cingular Tech Support is brain dead. Customer Service issues are always resolved correctly, but only if I talk to a supervisor or the disconnection specialist.

    As long as I can use a SIM card and can obtain unlocked phones, GSM is too much of an advantage, especially if I travel overseas.

    If I was only in the US, as a smartphone user, then I would choose Verizon, but only if local service was acceptable, and that depends upon the towers available. Working with a better company does not help you if their network umbrella does not allow you to complete calls. That comes first.

    So even though I had good experiece with TMobile, I moved to Cingular because of better local coverage. I do not have a contract, I don't accept phone subsidies, and I only use unlocked phones now on GSM. If TMobile ever gets full US roaming with Cingular (currently just California, Northern Nevada, and NYC) I would consider moving back to TMobile for smartphone use. Currently, after the ATT Wireless merger, Cingular just has a better footprint for GSM service.

    This suggests careful reading of GSM phone specs. It is now essential to have a phone that is quad band. 850 mhz for Cingular/ATT and Brazil, 900 mhz for rural Europe, 1800 mhz for Asia, and 1900 mhz for TMobile and metropolitan Europe. Most handsets are triband and offer either 850 or 900 mhz. giving you a choice of better US or European coverage. The Treo 600/650 are quad band so it is not an issue. Many of the treo competitors are triband and it may be a problem. The Vaporware Samsung SGH i500 series (GSM) is 900/1800/1900 mhz for Europe/Asia, not US. If it ever became available, even though I perfer it's design to the Treo, if it did not support 850 mhz, necessary for my home market, I could not buy it.

    For basic phone service, in the US I would choose a CDMA carrier and use a phone that included AMPS service for areas that still do not support digitial signals. In reality, this means not using Sprint and choosing either a regional CDMA carrier (Cellular South, Alltell, US Cellular) or or Verizon.
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by specimen38
    This thread will not go away. More than a week in the top 20. Lots of good dialogue. Very little whinning. It's my compliment to the nation of Treo GSM users.
    My only whinning is how Sprint supportive PalmOne is and the lack of color case choices for GSM users... For the 600, I wish the GSM version was "black".

    The Cingular/ATT Merger has made GSM support much better in the US as more towers are available. At some point I would now want to see either a very good roaming agreement between Cingular and TMobile for all of their towers (not just California, Northern Nevada, and NYC) or eventual partnership between the companies and even merger.

    If that happens, I would expect full buyout of Verizon Wireless by Vodaphone and eventual adoption of WCDMA as their GSM varient in Europe and as an upgrade to the US CDMA network.
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by Smartphone Fan
    An investment by NTT Docomo of Japan into ATT Wirless led to the adoption of GSM by ATT Wireless and then Cingular.


    One interesting technology issue is that some of the advanced GSM technologies being discussed is that they are all varients of CDMA (I believe CDMA 2000). It is possible then that the next generation of digital phone infrastruction (after EDGE) will all be a version of CDMA and we may finally approach a global standard.
    actually, the NTT agreement was for the establishment of WCDMA in the USA, which is currently available only from AWS in 6 cities: Seatle, San Diego, San Francisco, Phoenix, Detriot, and one other place I can't remember

    both WCDMA and CDMA2000 are code division (CD..) based technologies versus GSM and TDMA, which are both time division based technologies. CDMA2000 is piloted by Qualcomm of California and is used by Sprint, AllTell, Verizon, etc. WCDMA is piloted by Ericsson. There is a long history of dispute between the two, they are both basically CDMA technologies but they are different enough they are incompatible for the end-user.

    Additionally, you may hear the name UMTS thrown around. Originally, UMTS was used to refer to ANY cellular technology running on the 2100 mHz spectrum. HOWEVER, UMTS has since been used to describe WCDMA service, so you are not likely to see many references to WCDMA outside of geeks such as myself. Furthermore, NTT DoCoMo has been using a form of WCDMA in Japan, but it is an earlier release (called FOMA) that is also not compatible with the WCDMA being rolled out in Europe, Asia, and USA. Furthermore, WCDMA is on 2100 in the rest of the world and 1900 in USA, so current WCDMA, UMTS, same thing really, handsets from Europe won't work in USA until we start seeing dual band 1900/2100 UMTS handsets.

    Wow, that's a mouth full


    Quote Originally Posted by Smartphone Fan
    My only whinning is how Sprint supportive PalmOne is and the lack of color case choices for GSM users... For the 600, I wish the GSM version was "black".
    I wish it was that cool blue

    Quote Originally Posted by Smartphone Fan
    If that happens, I would expect full buyout of Verizon Wireless by Vodaphone and eventual adoption of WCDMA as their GSM varient in Europe and as an upgrade to the US CDMA network.
    if you recall, Vodaphone is quite discontented as a 45% owner of Verizon because of Verizon's choice of CDMA2000 and not WCDMA, and they have been looking for a chance to exit the relationship. ALso, Vodaphone and Cingular were the last bidders for AWS, and Cingular just dipped further into its parents pockets.

    Plus, Verizon is now considering divesting or spinning off its landline infrastructure to focus on wireless and beyond. Plus, Verizon is upgrading to EV-DO and not looking back, in fact, they have spent so much on network upgrades that they are considering selling their building in East Manhattan to recoup some revenue (It huge and you can't miss it when crossing the Brooklyn Bridge Westbound).

    I would look toward Cingular to be the major WCDMA player, in fact, NTT and Cingular are already talking. T-Mo is going to be a value carrier for a long time, period. Look to see Verizon absorb AllTell, US Cellular, or Sprint in time. But Verizon is firm with EV-DO and Vodaphone hates them for that.
    La Vie En Diaspora: Enfin, une émission qui raconte votre vie aux Etats-Unis

    Treo 600 in December '03, Treo 650 in February '05, HTC TyTN Pro in August '06, and back to Treo 750 in January '07, find me at MyTreo.net

    About me: story of the 100thMonkey
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by 100thMonkey
    actually, the NTT agreement was for the establishment of WCDMA in the USA, which is currently available only from AWS in 6 cities: Seatle, San Diego, San Francisco, Phoenix, Detriot, and one other place I can't remember.
    Very true. The implementation of WCDMA, also known as imode in Japan, by AWS was one of the requirements of the investment. It also was the final decision point in the choice of GSM vs CDMA by ATT Wireless.

    For simplicity, I think we can agree that GSM -> WCDMA and CDMA -> CDMA2000.

    Quote Originally Posted by 100thMonkey
    both WCDMA and CDMA2000 are code division (CD..) based technologies versus GSM and TDMA, which are both time division based technologies. CDMA2000 is piloted by Qualcomm of California and is used by Sprint, AllTell, Verizon, etc. WCDMA is piloted by Ericsson. There is a long history of dispute between the two, they are both basically CDMA technologies but they are different enough they are incompatible for the end-user.

    if you recall, Vodaphone is quite discontented as a 45% owner of Verizon because of Verizon's choice of CDMA2000 and not WCDMA, and they have been looking for a chance to exit the relationship. ALso, Vodaphone and Cingular were the last bidders for AWS, and Cingular just dipped further into its parents pockets.

    Plus, Verizon is now considering divesting or spinning off its landline infrastructure to focus on wireless and beyond. Plus, Verizon is upgrading to EV-DO and not looking back, in fact, they have spent so much on network upgrades that they are considering selling their building in East Manhattan to recoup some revenue (It huge and you can't miss it when crossing the Brooklyn Bridge Westbound).

    I would look toward Cingular to be the major WCDMA player, in fact, NTT and Cingular are already talking. T-Mo is going to be a value carrier for a long time, period. Look to see Verizon absorb AllTell, US Cellular, or Sprint in time. But Verizon is firm with EV-DO and Vodaphone hates them for that.
    In reality I think that you are right. Verizon needs to acquire the smaller CDMA carriers (AllTell, US Cellular, Cellular South) to solidify the network. I would then expect Verizon and Sprint to merge leaving the US with two major cell phone carriers, Cingular (GSM) and Verizon (CDMA). Unless the phone manufacturers come out with more and better phones that support AMPS, CDMA, and GSM (like the Samsung for Verizon World Phone), I would expect that Vodaphone would then sell their Verizon investment primarily due to technology issues.

    That would leave TMobile as the only other major player and they would be network limited compared to Cingular (1900 mhz only). I doubt that Vodaphone would partner with TMobile since they are competitors so someone loses out.
  8. #128  
    i couldn't agree more
    La Vie En Diaspora: Enfin, une émission qui raconte votre vie aux Etats-Unis

    Treo 600 in December '03, Treo 650 in February '05, HTC TyTN Pro in August '06, and back to Treo 750 in January '07, find me at MyTreo.net

    About me: story of the 100thMonkey
  9. #129  
    I'll wait for GSM because I like to use the phone in Europe. I just buy a local SIM and all of my incoming calls are free!!! It saves me $$$ when I want to talk to the wife and kids...

    Maybe with WiFi we could use VOIP but no such luck yet for TREO
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by PRANKSTAR
    i will never cave its a GSM UNLOCKED treo 650 for me. i couldnt jump if i wanted to becuase a CDMA version would be useless here in the UK
    If the introduction of the 650 follows the introduction of the 600, the you will get the GSM 650 in the UK long before we get it in the US. My 600 was re-patriated from Hong Kong.
    Last edited by whmurray; 11/13/2004 at 07:27 PM.
  11.    #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by stokar
    I'll wait for GSM because I like to use the phone in Europe. I just buy a local SIM and all of my incoming calls are free!!! It saves me $$$ when I want to talk to the wife and kids...
    Thanks for sharing such a good tip. How much is a typical local SIM cost? I am planning to also visit Hong Kong next year. I would love to do something similar, and I would love to make local calls while I'm there as well.

    Go GSM!
    Pager > Nokia ???? > Nextel i1000 > Nextel i1000 plus > T-Mobile Sidekick (B&W) > Nokia 3650 > Treo 650 GSM Cingular - Bought via TreoCentral (Feb 2005)
  12. #132  
    SIM card w/20 min's in Thailand is US$7.50.
    Every pixel a picasso
  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by grahamhgreen
    SIM card w/20 min's in Thailand is US$7.50.
    Local pre-paid SIM cards are a great option with GSM when traveling abroad - cheap and easy, just drop in the SIM. Keep in mind, though, that these are usually limited to voice calls only - the data service you have with your at-home carrier is tied to your carrier's SIM card. Because of this, I keep my T-Mobile SIM handy for data connections. I've heard that some of the pre-paid SIM dealers are starting to offer data options as well (so many MB for so many dollars/euros/yen/pounds), but I haven't encountered these in my travels yet.
  14. #134  
    I am going to Europe for 7 weeks and want data and phone use. I am conficted as to buy all europe card or for individual countries. I think the individual countries offer the most benefit. (Free incoming) hmmm any insights?
  15. #135  
    Thanks for the dialogue about 4 post up. Good reading for me.

    Specifically, the necessity for Verizon and Sprint to merge now that Cingular and AT&T have joined which ostensibly includes TMobile as well.

    I still have a question though. Understandingly, WCDMA in the U.S. is not a world standard compatible with European GSM. Does a Verizon/Sprint merger have the potential to support a world standard? Perhaps you said and I misinterpreted it, but Verizon and Sprint don't seem very concerned about Europe and the Far East.
  16. #136  
    I wish the Treo came in any color for any carrier. I hope I am not whinning either. However, black is my favorite also.

    ".....buyout of Verizon Wireless by Vodaphone and eventual adoption of WCDMA as their GSM varient in Europe" This would apparently need to be a 1900 mhz varient in order expand market share for Verizon.



    Quote Originally Posted by Smartphone Fan
    My only whinning is how Sprint supportive PalmOne is and the lack of color case choices for GSM users... For the 600, I wish the GSM version was "black".

    The Cingular/ATT Merger has made GSM support much better in the US as more towers are available. At some point I would now want to see either a very good roaming agreement between Cingular and TMobile for all of their towers (not just California, Northern Nevada, and NYC) or eventual partnership between the companies and even merger.

    If that happens, I would expect full buyout of Verizon Wireless by Vodaphone and eventual adoption of WCDMA as their GSM varient in Europe and as an upgrade to the US CDMA network.
  17. #137  
    GSM All the way !!
  18. #138  
    I wonder how many GSM users are members of TreoCentral? Is there a way to figure out how many are GSM users now? Even a precentages of GSM to CDMA? My assumption is that CDMA members out number GSM users 3 to 1. Nonetheless, GSM rocks!
  19.    #139  
    You can start a poll.
    Pager > Nokia ???? > Nextel i1000 > Nextel i1000 plus > T-Mobile Sidekick (B&W) > Nokia 3650 > Treo 650 GSM Cingular - Bought via TreoCentral (Feb 2005)
  20. #140  
    TechJunkie,

    This thread has taken on a life of its own.

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