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  1. #1121  
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterEd
    Aside from the lack of information coming from them (P1) do you think it has been THEM delaying the release?
    I do. It is the only explanation that fits the evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterEd
    If they give a product to the carrier and the carrier sends it back for updates, how can it be their fault? I can't imagine them holding it back without reason just for the fun of watching people get angry. I think the carriers are the cause of the delay AT THS POINT.
    Perhaps. There is no evidence available to me that they have given it to anyone except Sprint. What I do know is that we have been through this same scenario before. What I do know is that they leak but fail to say anything officially. What I do know is that Sprint profits from this special treatment.
  2. #1122  
    Quote Originally Posted by cglaguna
    There is no way that P1 can drag this longer.
    You think not. You must not have been around for the 600. Everyone said the same thing then. But they did. 600 GSMs were available in Hong Kong and Singapore long before they were available here. They reneged on at least three dates given to distributors. We have seen it all before.

    However, as I have said and as far as I am concerned, the issue is not when or if they ever deliver but that they leak. There is no need for it and no excuse for it. They think that they are having fun at our expense but, in fact, it is at the expense of their reputation for fair dealing.
    Last edited by whmurray; 01/13/2005 at 10:00 PM.
  3. #1123  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    What I do know is that Sprint profits from this special treatment.
    I don't think P1 gives Sprint special treatment because they think Sprint is pretty. (Well maybe, I haven't seen Sprint in a sun dress.) Didn't Sprint pay a chunk of money for the development of the 600? I'll bet they paid a pretty penny for whatever exclusive launch they rights they got to the 650. Maybe we should be annoyed with Cingular for not ponying up some money to keep us GSMer's happy.

    I'm not saying you don't make some good points, I'm just offering another perspective.
    Oh, so they have internet on computers now!
    --Treo 650 unlocked/unbranded with Rogers
  4. #1124  
    Quote Originally Posted by Boobookins
    I don't think P1 gives Sprint special treatment because they think Sprint is pretty. (Well maybe, I haven't seen Sprint in a sun dress.) Didn't Sprint pay a chunk of money for the development of the 600? I'll bet they paid a pretty penny for whatever exclusive launch they rights they got to the 650. Maybe we should be annoyed with Cingular for not ponying up some money to keep us GSMer's happy.

    I'm not saying you don't make some good points, I'm just offering another perspective.
    Perhaps. They may well have. Apparently Motorola entered into such an agreement with Cingular. The difference is they said so. They did not leak. They did not tease. No one likes to be teased.

    There can be no value to Cingular in this. The customers who defected to Sprint during the 600 giame have not returned. Those who have defected in the last ninety days will not return.
  5. #1125  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Perhaps. They may well have. Apparently Motorola entered into such an agreement with Cingular. The difference is they said so. They did not leak. They did not tease. No one likes to be teased.

    There can be no value to Cingular in this. The customers who defected to Sprint during the 600 giame have not returned. Those who have defected in the last ninety days will not return.
    I completely agree with you that lack of information and rumoured information is a poor way of handling a product launch, not to mention frustrating for wanna-be-customers. If P1 gave me an official hard date I could accept that, plan for it, happily anticipate the release. Now all I've got to look forward is the next posted rumour.

    The fact is It'll do more damage to customer relationships if customers come to believe that the phone is coming out at the end of this month and the date slips again, then if P1 had officially announced end of February and kept that promise. So I agree with you on that point.

    In P1's defense, they may be on the hook waiting for carrier approval etc, and we all know that good carrier relationships are critical to success in the cell game. People want those discounts and most people get phones when they walk into their local Cingular/Sprint/T-Mobile/Rogers store and see what's available.
    Oh, so they have internet on computers now!
    --Treo 650 unlocked/unbranded with Rogers
  6. #1126  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    You think not. You must not have been around for the 600. Everyone said the same thing then. But they did. 600 GSMs were available in Hong Kong and Singapore long before they were available here. They reneged on at least three dates given to distributors. We have seen it all before.

    However, as I have said and as far as I am concerned, the issue is not when or if they ever deliver but that they leak. There is no need for it and no excuse for it. They think that they are having fun at our expense but, in fact, it is at the expense of their reputation for fair dealing.
    I have been around since visor phone, I am sure longer than most people on this board. I got my GSM phone 2nd week in November last year. Cingular wasn't and isn't that thrilled with the 650, it accounts for more than it's share of customer issues, while this does not affect my view, I am sure if affects Cingular's.

    I think that yes, this is being held back by two main issues, One - Cingular's relcutance to release, 2- Palm one not wanting to live through another release like th 650's release with Sprint. I think if Cingular waited any longer than the end of January, Palm would release without them. Which is possible since because i don't believe that Cingular has any exclusive agreement with Cingular.
  7. #1127  
    Quote Originally Posted by cglaguna
    ........I think that yes, this is being held back by two main issues, One - Cingular's relcutance to release, 2- Palm one not wanting to live through another release like th 650's release with Sprint. I think if Cingular waited any longer than the end of January, Palm would release without them. Which is possible since because i don't believe that Cingular has any exclusive agreement with Cingular.
    You say that Cingular is reluctant to release. I have not seen any evidence of that that cannot be accounted for more easily by Sprint. That is to say that the only evidence is that there are no GSM phones. That can be accounted for by either that there are no GSM phones, a tautology, or by the intent of P1 and Sprint to milk the market for every possible CDMA customer before selling any GSM phones. On the other hand any delay can only cause further erosion of Cingular's customer base, never to be regained. Cingular has nothing to gain by delaying the release of something that they do not want but Sprint has everything to gain by maintaining CDMA exclusivity.

    I can understand that P1 might not want to live through another release like the 600 GSM. However, this is not about about the 600 or the 650 CDMA. It is about P1. This behavior has been consistent without regard to product. However one feels about the 650, its quality and design problems are no worse than those of the 600. For example, the complaints about the lack of WiFi are no louder than the complaints about the screen or the absence of Bluetooth on the 600.

    As to exclusivity between PI and Cingular, if there were none, then what would prevent P1 from saying so? What would prevent them from selling unlocked GSM phones? If as you suggest, most of their sales are through the carriers in any case, then what they do at VC, TC Store, other distributors, and their own store would simply be noise to the carriers. I think you are trying to have it both ways.

    It seems to me that P1 is master of their own fate. Attempts to somehow cast them as victims, even of circumstances, much less of Cingular, fails to account for the fact they did the same thing with the 600. It also fails to account for the fact that only Sprint benefits from this sick situation. This is about P1, Sprint, and CDMA, not about Cingular, the other GSM carriers, or GSM itself. Potential customers for GSM, not P1, are the victims.
    Last edited by whmurray; 01/13/2005 at 11:43 PM.
  8. #1128  
    This is almost entirely speculation. We know that palmOne made a deal with Sprint for an exclusivity period. That's about it. You can presume that palmOne and/or Cingular are being devious and underhanded about the release of the GSM model, but again, you're just speculating. It's much more likely that Cingular is being anal about some details with the phone, but I don't know that for sure, either.

    There's nothing sick about it, just business. palmOne is trying to make as much money and capture as much of the market as they can with this phone. The best way to do that is to have the strong support of the carriers. They shopped around the 650, and Sprint won out with the exclusivity deal (or they were the only ones that wanted it, but that's unlikely given the popularity of the 600). Independent sales of devices are small relative to carrier sales because that's the way the manufacturers and the carriers have structured their market (subsidized, early access to hot phones through the carriers, followed by non-subsidized access through independents).

    Sure, I wish Cingular had released the phone a long time ago. But I can wait. It's just a phone, for crying out loud. If I were truly desperate to get my hands on this phone, and didn't need world service, then I'd switch to Sprint. But that would be my decision, not the result of some evil plot by palmOne and Sprint and Cingular and The Man.
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    #1129  
    Well, I blame The Man. Who's with me?
  10. #1130  
    Quote Originally Posted by jimf
    This is almost entirely speculation. We know that palmOne made a deal with Sprint for an exclusivity period. That's about it. You can presume that palmOne and/or Cingular are being devious and underhanded about the release of the GSM model, but again, you're just speculating. It's much more likely that Cingular is being anal about some details with the phone, but I don't know that for sure, either.

    There's nothing sick about it, just business. palmOne is trying to make as much money and capture as much of the market as they can with this phone. The best way to do that is to have the strong support of the carriers. They shopped around the 650, and Sprint won out with the exclusivity deal (or they were the only ones that wanted it, but that's unlikely given the popularity of the 600). Independent sales of devices are small relative to carrier sales because that's the way the manufacturers and the carriers have structured their market (subsidized, early access to hot phones through the carriers, followed by non-subsidized access through independents).

    Sure, I wish Cingular had released the phone a long time ago. But I can wait. It's just a phone, for crying out loud. If I were truly desperate to get my hands on this phone, and didn't need world service, then I'd switch to Sprint. But that would be my decision, not the result of some evil plot by palmOne and Sprint and Cingular and The Man.
    Someone with some common business sense? How'd you get in here? I thought I was the only one!

    Despite what everyone seems to think PalmOne, Cingular, and Sprint are not out to ruin your day. They are all out to make as much money as possible, as fast as possible. This is the reason that Sprint got an exclusive launch; They paid PalmOne/Handspring for it. Cingular wants to sell you a GSM 650 just as much as you want to buy one. What they don't want, is to sell you one that drops calls or that crashes or whatever. This will end up costing them money.

    It's all about the Benjamin's
    Last edited by s0ren; 01/14/2005 at 12:13 AM.
  11. #1131  
    Ummm regarding the comments about the Nebraska furniture mart. I assume you folks have heard of Warren Buffett and Berkshire Hathaway? They own that. Its a big deal out there, bigger than a Walmart store.
  12. #1132  
    WhMurray- On the other hand any delay can only cause further erosion of Cingular's customer base, never to be regained. Cingular has nothing to gain by delaying the release of something that they do not want but Sprint has everything to gain by maintaining CDMA exclusivity.
    We are on a forum with a bunch of geeks (me included) the number of Cingular customers giving up has been what, 3? Our group does not exactly represent Cingular's customer base. Frankly, I don't think that Cingular cares. Cingular unlike Sprint has always had a huge selection and availabilty of cool phones. The worlds phones are Cingular's phones. Treo does not account for a huge number of phones for Cingular. Look at those on order with VC, very small in comparison.

    I can understand that P1 might not want to live through another release like the 600 GSM. However, this is not about about the 600 or the 650 CDMA. It is about P1. This behavior has been consistent without regard to product. However one feels about the 650, its quality and design problems are no worse than those of the 600. For example, the complaints about the lack of WiFi are no louder than the complaints about the screen or the absence of Bluetooth on the 600.
    I am sorry to differ with you. But the problems with the 650 are much different than the 600's. When people bought the 600 they knew it didn't have WiFi, they knew it didn't have Bluetooth. Unlike the 650 which released with Sprint with major Sound problems, major bluetooth issues, major resetting issues, major keyboard issues, major memory issues. Except for my drop a month ago (didn't break just not as pretty), I have had the same 600 since it's release, I got it 2nd week in Novemeber of last year, with only one minor update for internet. NO issues.

    As to exclusivity between PI and Cingular, if there were none, then what would prevent P1 from saying so? What would prevent them from selling unlocked GSM phones? If as you suggest, most of their sales are through the carriers in any case, then what they do at VC, TC Store, other distributors, and their own store would simply be noise to the carriers. I think you are trying to have it both ways.
    They are releasing unlocked phones, I am getting three of them, and yes the last week of January. Where did I say "most of their sales are through carriers"? I think as far as Sprint phones go, most are through Sprint. Cingular, I never really thought about it, nor doesit matter.
    It seems to me that P1 is master of their own fate. Attempts to somehow cast them as victims, even of circumstances, much less of Cingular, fails to account for the fact they did the same thing with the 600. It also fails to account for the fact that only Sprint benefits from this sick situation. This is about P1, Sprint, and CDMA, not about Cingular, the other GSM carriers, or GSM itself. Potential customers for GSM, not P1, are the victims.
    You're a "victim" of not being able to buy a phone?
    Where has Cingular or Palm ever released a date for the GSM release. People are mad because the phone is late according to speculation?

    I agree, I hate the relationship with Sprint. Sprint is the reason the phone is so immasculated in my opinion. I think P1 is stuck between a rock and a hard place for ever getting so deeply involved with Sprint. Given the PDA market, and any other carriers apathetic attitude towards the Treo, I think they are trapped. And I am not absolving them of blame for getting themselves into the position in the first place.
    Last edited by cglaguna; 01/14/2005 at 12:37 AM.
  13. #1133  
    Last week at CES, I asked one PalmOne manager and one rep about the existence of an exclusive agreement between PalmOne and Sprint. They both flatly said there wasn't one. Then I asked, "well how many days did PalmOne and Sprint agree to before other carriers start carrying the phone?" The manager I spoke to said, "Sprint is our biggest customer." Then he went on to iterate why it was important that PalmOne not offend Sprint. But he never went as far as to say there was an exclusive 100, 90, 80 or whatever day agreement. The rep looked bewildered when I mentioned a time-framed exclusivity agreement.

    What I am about to say is very subjective, but it was my impression. I was left with the thought that PalmOne capitulated to Sprint's over zealous-ness to get the T650 out on the market first. Partially, because they carry a lot of influence in selling more Treos than any other carrier and partially because they wanted to maintain their lead in the Treo market place. I truly believed Sprint skipped most of the testing and approval processes, and "threw" this phone out the back door to it customers.
  14. #1134  
    I'm new to SprintPCS, and a long time Verizon and ATT customer. From what I read here I'm left with the impression that two statements are true:

    1. There is an exclusivity agreement between Sprint and PalmOne. There is no way other carriers would sit idle and watch Sprint reap the benefits of Treo 650.

    2. SprintPCS is indeed over zealous about being the first out of the gate, regardless of the impact on its customers.

    If Cingular is indeed using any wisdom in delaying the launch of its T650 then I tip my hat out to them. But my hunch is that they're waiting out the exclusivity period.

    hmmm, business cynic, as usual
  15. #1135  
    Uh, hello ... OF COURSE SPRINT DOES .... that is the intent of a "exclusive contract." Just like THIS OFT POSTED ARTICLE detailed month ago. While I'm sure you don't like it, as I don't, that's how the capitalism game is played.
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    What I do know is that Sprint profits from this special treatment.
  16. #1136  
    So if there wasn't an "exclusive agreement" maybe there was an "understanding." If there wasn't an understanding then (as the CNET article stated) they were promised 100% of production until January or whenever.

    That being said, WH is going to file an anti-trust action.

    Besides, do you REALLY think they are going to tell you even if it was so?
    Quote Originally Posted by specimen38
    Last week at CES, I asked one PalmOne manager and one rep about the existence of an exclusive agreement between PalmOne and Sprint. They both flatly said there wasn't one.
  17. #1137  
    Here here! (hear hear?? )
    Quote Originally Posted by jimf
    There's nothing sick about it, just business. palmOne is trying to make as much money and capture as much of the market as they can with this phone. The best way to do that is to have the strong support of the carriers. They shopped around the 650, and Sprint won out with the exclusivity deal (or they were the only ones that wanted it, but that's unlikely given the popularity of the 600). Independent sales of devices are small relative to carrier sales because that's the way the manufacturers and the carriers have structured their market (subsidized, early access to hot phones through the carriers, followed by non-subsidized access through independents).

    Sure, I wish Cingular had released the phone a long time ago. But I can wait. It's just a phone, for crying out loud. If I were truly desperate to get my hands on this phone, and didn't need world service, then I'd switch to Sprint. But that would be my decision, not the result of some evil plot by palmOne and Sprint and Cingular and The Man.
  18. #1138  
    Palm1 and all their incognito people who lurk here must be laughing their asses off reading this thread. They must have a scoreboard on their wall checking off which comments are true and which is false.
  19. #1139  
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterEd
    Palm1 and all their incognito people who lurk here must be laughing their asses off reading this thread. They must have a scoreboard on their wall checking off which comments are true and which is false.
    That assumes a level of clue higher than they evidence in the market place. I suspect that GSM is so far off their radar that they could care less what is said in this thread.
  20. #1140  
    Bull's eye.... I don't think Sprint needed an agreement with PalmOne. I think PalmOne was all too happy to start selling Treos. In this scenario, Palm is as anxious as Sprint. Whereas on the other hand, Cingular wasn't as zealous; nor did they have the percentage/sales of the Treo market to exercise call any of the shots.
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterEd
    So if there wasn't an "exclusive agreement" maybe there was an "understanding." If there wasn't an understanding then (as the CNET article stated) they were promised 100% of production until January or whenever.

    That being said, WH is going to file an anti-trust action.

    Besides, do you REALLY think they are going to tell you even if it was so?

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