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  1. #781  
    Quote Originally Posted by icanbeatali
    As stated before I have sprint, and maybe the area you are in suffers, but from my experience traveling around the east coast and mid-america I dont suffer from the problems you mentioned... and I do read these posts everyday... alot of the problems people come on here and complain about are easily fixed, or are cause from user ignorance. ie how the problem is fixed. I will give you the international fact, but customer service is based on carrier... not GSM vs CDMA. Also Sprint outsourced Customer Care to IBM to remedy the problem... so it is getting better. I guess its all about where you are... and more importantly where you travel.
    Well, I am not questioning you on your decision am I.
    This summer I traveled only to these locations:
    Washington D.C. NE > no Sprint coverage on college campus I stayed at for two weeks. Full GSM
    Cape Cod Mass - 1 week > Sprint Bars but circuits busy the full week between 9 am and 6ish pm. GSM fine, even on remote beaches.
    Gilbert, AZ > GSM Great, Sprint Spotty
    Honolulu Hawaii > GSM everywhere, Sprint in downtown only.
    North Shore Hawaii > No Sprint coverage, spotty GSM
    Downtown LA USC campus 1 week > GSM fine indoors and out, no Sprint coverage indoors, outside good.

    Next summer:
    Italy, Spain, Germany, Greece, France > GSM 5 - Sprint 0

    So I don't hang out on Sprint discussion talking them down, if for you it's great. For me, I HAVE BOTH, it's not, and that's why I choose to pay slightly more for better coverage and service.
  2. #782  
    Amen
    Quote Originally Posted by cglaguna
    Well, I am not questioning you on your decision am I.
    This summer I traveled only to these locations:
    Washington D.C. NE > no Sprint coverage on college campus I stayed at for two weeks. Full GSM
    Cape Cod Mass - 1 week > Sprint Bars but circuits busy the full week between 9 am and 6ish pm. GSM fine, even on remote beaches.
    Gilbert, AZ > GSM Great, Sprint Spotty
    Honolulu Hawaii > GSM everywhere, Sprint in downtown only.
    North Shore Hawaii > No Sprint coverage, spotty GSM
    Downtown LA USC campus 1 week > GSM fine indoors and out, no Sprint coverage indoors, outside good.

    Next summer:
    Italy, Spain, Germany, Greece, France > GSM 5 - Sprint 0

    So I don't hang out on Sprint discussion talking them down, if for you it's great. For me, I HAVE BOTH, it's not, and that's why I choose to pay slightly more for better coverage and service.
  3. #783  
    Quote Originally Posted by cglaguna
    Next summer:
    Italy, Spain, Germany, Greece, France > GSM 5 - Sprint 0
    haha, damn cant argue with that... well... thats all fine and well.

    My thing is this with GSM, and I could be wrong... but I see the future of wireless being better on the CDMA. As far as higher data speeds... which might all be pointless anyway once wifi grows and wireless companies as you know them now will be fighting to preserve any kind of market share at all.

    Just to help you feel better about your Sprint... I have a guy that has access to Sprint's internal information... and I have personally seen So Cal... and they already have countless tower sites that they are building or are about to begin building. (I was looking mainly at LA and San Diego) And when I say countless... geez do I mean it. There are already a ton of towers up, but it appears they are more than doubling it over the next year. Same goes for NYC... DC is puitting up a large number of them, but nothing in comparison to the other places listed. Just wanted you to know...


    Happy GSMing
  4. #784  
    Quote Originally Posted by specimen38
    One probable reason for locking phones may have resulted from Cingular needing to customize the phones to work "optimally" on their networks.
    Perhaps, but not likely. In GSM it is far more important that all phones work on all networks than that a phone be optimized for any network.
  5. #785  
    Who was prophesying the January 5, 2005 GSM release or pre-order? Speak up! That's tomorrow... If you are right, you get major props from this thread. One congratulatory post from all the regulars here at "I Will Wait For GSM...Who's With Me?" If your sources were bad and you are wrong, permit us grumble a little.

    Everybody agree? It will be fun.
  6. #786  
    Quote Originally Posted by icanbeatali
    .............My thing is this with GSM, and I could be wrong... but I see the future of wireless being better on the CDMA.
    So does the GSMA. See their web site. 3GSM is W-CDMA. Get over it.
  7. #787  
    I used to think that too, but I am not sure now. Cingular only thinks of Cingular and what's best for its customers (I think). However, I agree with you on this one point whmurray. On the basis of "goodwill" that's is the way it should be done. I recently heard something that conflicts with my first premise.
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Perhaps, but not likely. In GSM it is far more important that all phones work on all networks than that a phone be optimized for any network.
  8. #788  
    I don't argue or disagree with any predictions for the future, but it ain't happening this year and it ain't happening to the 650, so for now, I stick with what serves me right now, in my area right now, with my needs best right now. Next year I will have another phone, and if things with another carrier improves, I can jump ship.

    GO GSM and go USC right now!
  9. #789  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis
    .......I have no doubt that P1 can fulfill the VC orders in a number of ways for a few hundred GSM units. But they didn't offer the seminar in my state so I didn't go to one and I want an unlocked unit. If the GSM launch is a Cingular exclusive in the U.S. (which I'm betting it will), then the only choice will be getting Cingular or getting an unlocked unit from an importer at a big additional cost.
    Welcome to e-Bay. In the world of e-Bay, it is impossible to segment the market in the way you suggest. If there are unlocked GSM phones available in any market segment, then it is only a matter of price.
  10. #790  
    I have been with Verizon for almost 18 years (under one company name or another) and recently switched to AT&(C). AFAIAK the voice quality is like 500% better on AT&(C). Virtually everyone I speak with agrees (at least here in NY/NJ area).
    Quote Originally Posted by icanbeatali
    it cracks me up to read all of the people that think that GSM is a superior technology to CDMA. Sprint could have bought into GSM alot easier than buying and building up a 1900mhz CDMA network. The reason that they didnt is becasue CDMA has more capabilities as far as data speed and has clear calls. Which brings me to my next thought... I've read in this post many times that GSM has better voice quality. This makes no since from a technological standpoint and from personal experience. I use to have Tmo... it was no where near Sprint as far as quality. The only benifit I see is that internationally GSM is used, and that in many areas they have more reception due to the extra 2-3 mile footprint of their towers. All that said... if you live in the states Verizon still has the best coverage, and after Sprint starts converting some of Nextel's IDEN towers to CDMA and building more with the new found money from an extra 18 million customers they will be neck and neck with Verizon in reception. Maybe I am blinded by my satisfaction with Sprint, but explain to me why (in list form) that you would rather have GSM.

    Maybe I'm just crazy...
  11. #791  
    Quote Originally Posted by specimen38
    I used to think that too, but I am not sure now. Cingular only thinks of Cingular and what's best for its customers (I think). However, I agree with you on this one point whmurray. On the basis of "goodwill" that's is the way it should be done. I recently heard something that conflicts with my first premise.
    It is not simply a matter of "goodwill." It is a matter of contract. One is either GSM or one is not. If a network is GSM, then all GSM phones must work on that network. If a phone is GSM, then it must work on all networks. A phone vendor may not claim that its product is GSM if that product will not work on all GSM standard networks. A network cannot claim that it is GSM if all GSM standard phones will not work on it.

    What is best for Cingular and its customers is that both Cingular and the phones that it sells are GSM standard compliant. If a phone works (marginally) better on Cingular than on other GSM networks, it is unlikely that anyone would notice, but it is certain that if a phone works better on Cingular at the expense of not working on other GSM networks, it is certain that everyone will notice.

    In any case, if there is a villain in this piece, it is P1, not Cingular.
  12. #792  
    I agree with the bulk of your sentiments, whmurray, but not that the primary "villian" in this hypothetical situation is palmOne, and not Cingular. palmOne sells devices to Cingular, and Cingular only agrees to this after palmOne agrees to make the requested modifications to the device for their network. This includes locking the phone, if they request it, modifying the phone interface, adding utilities, adding their own addendum documentation, etc. palmOne's only interest in optimizing a version of their devices for a carrier is to get that carrier to agree to sell their phones. Carriers ask for the phones to be locked to their network when they sell them, to make it a bit more difficult/costly for an existing customer to jump ship to another carrier.

    Meanwhile, palmOne can get other resellers (like eXpansys and MobileBee) to sell the same device unmodified and unlocked, but without the carrier incentives. And the carrier has an interest in having these unmodified phones work on their network as well - they make money on plans, not selling devices.
  13. #793  
    Quote Originally Posted by acajigas
    If you buy a phone without a plan, you will be paying the whole real price of the phone. However, if you buy it with a plan then you get some discounts, but you probably need to use the service for more than 1 or 2 years. I don't see how a cellphone company can lose money like that. Seriously, if I pay money for a phone then I have the right to do whatever I want with it. It would be different if I get it for free. At the end aren't they getting big bucks for the phone?

    Al
    Well that is an interesting argument, it makes me think of the arguments on use of music and media you have purchased. But anyway, I can see your point on buying a phone with no service. I do however know the cost involved in getting a new customer, that includes subsidized phone prices, is something that is not recovered by the carrier for some time. Another thing is you could look at it like a game console company. XBox has it's hit game that they don't want other boxes getting, at least at first anyway, Playstation is the same way too. The phone is a tool they use to get customers. They don't want to give up that edge. Would you if you were on the buisness side of it? The money for a carrier is not in phone sales, it is in the service.
    Last edited by helpermonkey; 01/04/2005 at 08:44 PM.
  14. #794  
    Quote Originally Posted by helpermonkey
    Well that is an interesting argument, it makes me think of the arguments on use of music and media you have purchased. But anyway, I can see your point on buying a phone with no service. I do however know the cost involved in getting a new customer, that includes subsidized phone prices, is something that is not recovered by the carrier for some time. Another thing is you could look at it like a game console company. XBox has it's hit game that they don't want other boxes getting, at least at first anyway, Playstation is the same way too. The phone is a tool they use to get customers. They don't want to give up that edge. Would you if you were on the buisness side of it? The money for a carrier is not in phone sales, it is in the service.
    I am not sure I understand the context. However, the issue here is not Sprint or Cingular. It is that P1 clearly prefers some customers over others without regard to equity or price. They have done so consistently and persistently. To blame Cingular and absolve P1 is simply not consistent with the evidence.

    I do not give a tinker's damn that P1 provides Cingular with an "exclusivity feature" to protect the discount that they provide to their customers. What I do care about is that, for whatever reason, with 638 CDMA phones in a disributors wharehouse, P1 will not sell me an unlocked GSM phone at any price.
  15. #795  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    I am not sure I understand the context. However, the issue here is not Sprint or Cingular. It is that P1 clearly prefers some customers over others without regard to equity or price. They have done so consistently and persistently. To blame Cingular and absolve P1 is simply not consistent with the evidence.

    I do not give a tinker's damn that P1 provides Cingular with an "exclusivity feature" to protect the discount that they provide to their customers. What I do care about is that, for whatever reason, with 638 CDMA phones in a disributors wharehouse, P1 will not sell me an unlocked GSM phone at any price.
    First of, why did you quote me?

    The reason PalmOne wont cell you a 650 GSM phone is they are not finished. They couldn't even if they wanted to. Until you have a finished product, you can't sell it right?

    I don't know what elese you are talking about exactly, but I noticed you say P1 prefers some customers over others. If you think about it is it obvious why they would do something like that. Other industries do it all the time. If for example Cingular or Verizon, the number 1 and 2 carrier size wise in this country, tell a manufacturer they want something exclusive or they want to buy phones at a lower price because of volume or what ever, you think they are going to ignore them and do what the smallest carrier wants? They do what is in their best interest, and that is making money. How ever they can do it, they will. I expect to see Cingular use it's new found size to take advantage of more deals like getting new phones first etc.
  16. #796  
    well as for the topic of waiting. It shouldn't be much longer!!! halfway through the first week of January!! I'm getting soooo excited!
    La Vie En Diaspora: Enfin, une émission qui raconte votre vie aux Etats-Unis

    Treo 600 in December '03, Treo 650 in February '05, HTC TyTN Pro in August '06, and back to Treo 750 in January '07, find me at MyTreo.net

    About me: story of the 100thMonkey
  17. #797  
    Quote Originally Posted by helpermonkey
    ............I don't know what elese you are talking about exactly, but I noticed you say P1 prefers some customers over others. If you think about it is it obvious why they would do something like that....
    Of course it is obvious. That is why there are laws against it.

    "Clayton Antitrust Act, 1914, passed by the U.S. Congress as an amendment to clarify and supplement the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890. It was drafted by Henry De Lamar Clayton. The act prohibited exclusive sales contracts, local price cutting to freeze out competitors, rebates, interlocking directorates in corporations capitalized at $1 million or more in the same field of business, and intercorporate stock holdings."

    "Robinson-Patman Act, passed by the U.S. Congress in 1936 to supplement the Clayton Antitrust Act. The act, advanced by Congressman Wright Patman, forbade any person or firm engaged in interstate commerce to discriminate in price to different purchasers of the same commodity when the effect would be to lessen competition or to create a monopoly."
  18. #798  
    Quote Originally Posted by icanbeatali
    it cracks me up to read all of the people that think that GSM is a superior technology to CDMA. Sprint could have bought into GSM alot easier than buying and building up a 1900mhz CDMA network. The reason that they didnt is becasue CDMA has more capabilities as far as data speed and has clear calls. Which brings me to my next thought... I've read in this post many times that GSM has better voice quality. This makes no since from a technological standpoint and from personal experience. I use to have Tmo... it was no where near Sprint as far as quality. The only benifit I see is that internationally GSM is used, and that in many areas they have more reception due to the extra 2-3 mile footprint of their towers. All that said... if you live in the states Verizon still has the best coverage, and after Sprint starts converting some of Nextel's IDEN towers to CDMA and building more with the new found money from an extra 18 million customers they will be neck and neck with Verizon in reception. Maybe I am blinded by my satisfaction with Sprint, but explain to me why (in list form) that you would rather have GSM.

    Maybe I'm just crazy...
    First I would like to say GSM or CDMA being a superior technology on paper is not even relavent. The reason is being superior on paper gets you nothing. It is the implamentation of the technology that counts. Cingular, AT&T Wireless T-Mobile and even Sprint (at first) all use(d) GSM. Are all their netowrks equal? No. Are all of one carrier's networks of the same quality even, absolutely not. It is all in the implimentation. I am not going to say who is better or worse, as I only know things from my side of it.

    I don't know why Sprint went with CDMA, they started out as GSM PCS. My guess is it is the same reason as Cingular and ATTWS going with TDMA, they just thought it was the best path. Well turned out the crystal ball wasn't as clear as they thought and GSM would have probably been better, but what can you do? Just switch over to GSM as they have.

    Why does CDMA have a technological advantage on voice quality? You said it doesn't make sense that GSM would, so I want to know why CDMA should, if you can.

    I don't want to know other carriers, but comparing TMO to Sprint, may not be the best. At least in my region. TMO is not known as having the best network. Anyway regardless, TMO does not represent GSM quality. they can botch their network as well as anyone else can, wether they use IDEN TDMA GSM or CDMA...

    What 2-3 mile larger tower footprint are you refering to? Maybe that GSM site footprints do not shrink when more people use the tower? Or are you refering to a spectrum difference? I know Sprint is 1900, but Verizon is both 850 and 1900 just as Cingular is too.

    So Sprint will be neck and neck with Verizon for coverage soon? I am not holding my breath. What new found money is Sprint getting from it's 18 million new Nextel subscribers? Sure they will get some money I am sure, but do you honestly think they are going to get rich quick off of that? I am unclear why it even makes sense. To me Sprint only made sense to be purchased by Verizon. I doubt they can ever beat them in CDMA. Nextel is a complete nitch market, and trying to switch all those customers over to CDMA completely looses the edge they had with them when they were on IDEN. What then doess Sprint have to offer them that no one else does? nothing, everyone but IDEN is similar. As to Sprint overlaying the IDEN netowrk with thier own CDMA tech. sure that will help their customers out, but it will be expensive and take time. They can't shut the IDEN off any time soon, so there will be two techs at each site. All the while do you expect bill old Verizon to be napping so everyone else can catch up? They will be doing their own improvements too.

    Some reasons GSM has an edge:
    - world wide standard.
    - that reduces network equipment costs substantially. The networks are not cheap to build. For example GSM is MUCH cheaper than TDAM equipment.
    -Less development involved for the manufacturers for mobiles - make one and release it for the whole world, not just N. America
    -Cooler Mobiles (I know this is subjective, but I mean in the sense that the standard tech is going to get the most gadgets - notice how much cool phones Nextel gets from all their equipment venders?)

    Those are just a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by icanbeatali
    haha, damn cant argue with that... well... thats all fine and well.

    My thing is this with GSM, and I could be wrong... but I see the future of wireless being better on the CDMA. As far as higher data speeds... which might all be pointless anyway once wifi grows and wireless companies as you know them now will be fighting to preserve any kind of market share at all.

    Just to help you feel better about your Sprint... I have a guy that has access to Sprint's internal information... and I have personally seen So Cal... and they already have countless tower sites that they are building or are about to begin building. (I was looking mainly at LA and San Diego) And when I say countless... geez do I mean it. There are already a ton of towers up, but it appears they are more than doubling it over the next year. Same goes for NYC... DC is puitting up a large number of them, but nothing in comparison to the other places listed. Just wanted you to know...


    Happy GSMing
    Why does CDMA have a data speed edge? GSM will be suplanted by UMTS soon enough, and then that by something else. NTT has already lab tested 4G data connections using 100MHZ wideband I believe it did 1Gb/s... it isn't like CDMA isn't doing the same thing. So why are they at an advantage?

    As you stated WiFi or any number of unforseen techs could make CDMA or GSM based data pointless in the future. We don't knwo what will happen.

    I doubt Sprint can double thier network in a year. I just don't think it is possible. I have experience in this matter. I'm not saying they can't grow a lot, but to double they would have to be so small to begin with. My market could not even grow an extra 25% in one year without serious growing pains (I am not talking about Sprint in my area - my carrier). And as stated before, other carriers are doing the same. The Cingular / ATTWS networks are going to grow like mad as they integrate and expand at the same time. The two footprints together are arguably the largest in the nation by a good percentage. I say arguable because I know how you can make coverae look like it in places it is not on a map...
  19. #799  
    Quote Originally Posted by icanbeatali
    My thing is this with GSM, and I could be wrong... but I see the future of wireless being better on the CDMA. As far as higher data speeds... which might all be pointless anyway once wifi grows and wireless companies as you know them now will be fighting to preserve any kind of market share at all.
    And Beta has always been better than VHS but one day I went to the video store and I couldn't rent movies in Beta anymore. GSM is a world standard and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Speaking of which, when is the US going to adopt the metric system already?
    Oh, so they have internet on computers now!
    --Treo 650 unlocked/unbranded with Rogers
  20. #800  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Of course it is obvious. That is why there are laws against it.

    "Clayton Antitrust Act, 1914, passed by the U.S. Congress as an amendment to clarify and supplement the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890. It was drafted by Henry De Lamar Clayton. The act prohibited exclusive sales contracts, local price cutting to freeze out competitors, rebates, interlocking directorates in corporations capitalized at $1 million or more in the same field of business, and intercorporate stock holdings."

    "Robinson-Patman Act, passed by the U.S. Congress in 1936 to supplement the Clayton Antitrust Act. The act, advanced by Congressman Wright Patman, forbade any person or firm engaged in interstate commerce to discriminate in price to different purchasers of the same commodity when the effect would be to lessen competition or to create a monopoly."
    whoa...

    is that good for pricematching? like to other states?



    [h]back on topic[/h] (thx for all the OT education in this thread)
    What's the latest you guys have heard from cingular reps or otherwise?

    thx.

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