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  1.    #1  
    I found this article to be a great explanation on the new memory found in the T5 and Treo 650. Thought some of you might enjoy it as well.

    http://www.red-mercury.com/nvfs.html
  2. #2  
    Good info Thanks
  3. #3  
    neat
  4. #4  
    Yeah, I liked this example particularly:

    As mentioned above, NVFS is the technical term for this new system. On the Tungsten T5 and Treo 650 box, you will see it described simply as, for example, "256MB OF FLASH MEMORY."
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo-mike
    I found this article to be a great explanation on the new memory found in the T5 and Treo 650. Thought some of you might enjoy it as well.

    http://www.red-mercury.com/nvfs.html
    That was great....thank you for sharing!
  6. #6  
    Yep. Thanx Mike. Super article. Hmmm.
    This changes the way I perceived the fifty's internal 23mb of usable ram as perhaps not enough to "more than enough" given that article's explanation. He kept saying the T5 had 256mb nand flash memory but didn't state how much the 650 has. (or did he? 256mb of flash?) And if in fact the nand flash is none other than an "internal sd card" or "hard-drive,"the NVFS is even more of a deal sealer for me in upgrading to the fifty. I gathered that access to this system using third party apps like acid image solves a lot of problems for me in that 32mb of ram is not all that bad given what this article implied. Also if the nand flash can be used sparingly to store apps from ram, then presto! Issues solved. throw in a 1gb sd ultra and you're on your way. Flash memory is a cool thing to have especially when a back up battery is involved. I look forward to reading more about the non-volatile file system and how it can best be utilized. Again thanx Mike.
  7. #7  
    I got a T5 not long ago and had immediate problems with some of my
    favorite apps. Those being the WTPubs and DateBk5. The DateBk (PIM)
    was not even workable, I would get 'Fatal Errors' every time I would
    use it. PalmOne said to get the T5 update and that should fix it, but
    it was no help. Then I found a Yahoo Group for DateBk users I left a
    message there about the problem with DateBk and the T5. Two days later
    the software developer had a working solution. But here is what he
    said about PalmOne and three new architecture:

    "No palmone patch will make any difference as they have no intention of
    trying to address the poor performance of the DataManager patch on the T5
    (they know about it, but also acknowledge that with the different
    architecture of the T5, trying to address it is just not practical for them
    at this time)."

    I do like my T5 but it looks like it has some serious problems which
    I hate because it just may mean the demise of the Palm OS and the
    PocketPC gets a leg-up on the handheld market :-(
  8. #8  
    Is this true? So no more complaining about only 32 MB of memory?
  9. #9  
    Aw, come on man. Now, there's TOO much memory. The Treo 650 sucks, I'm not buying

    Seriously though, the article does being up a point. Seeing that AcidImage had to release an update for the Treo 650 to work correctly, does that mean that some apps may not work correctly now with the new memory arrangement? I hope not because it will be a major pain in the **** to have to track down new versions of some apps - assuming that some companies bother to release an update. Even if it's only a few apps, it's still annoying.
  10. #10  
    Any info about KeySuite and Beyond Contacts are working?
    La Vie En Diaspora: Enfin, une émission qui raconte votre vie aux Etats-Unis

    Treo 600 in December '03, Treo 650 in February '05, HTC TyTN Pro in August '06, and back to Treo 750 in January '07, find me at MyTreo.net

    About me: story of the 100thMonkey
  11. #11  
    Has anyone who's been to a show been able to clarify the Memory situation?
  12. #12  
  13. #13  
    Very interesting. This is quite similar to virual memory in regular computers, but it is done with a much faster "hard drive", which is thsi NAND flash. This has given them the advantage of using even less real RAM. The fact that the OS is not multi-tasking makes this workable. 10M of real RAM sounds quite sufficient for any program you are running in the foreground.

    I wonder how this would affect the performance of programs that run the background, e.g., ChatterEmail.
  14. #14  
    I don't anticipate that this will have any effect on Chatter.

    Marc
  15. #15  
    More thanks... for that article
  16. #16  
    Palm1 said the treo650 had 32meg of ram. They would have said that there is 256meg of "special ram" if it existed. They would be more than happy to list this as an feature.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo600kings
    Yep. Thanx Mike. Super article. Hmmm.
    This changes the way I perceived the fifty's internal 23mb of usable ram as perhaps not enough to "more than enough" given that article's explanation. He kept saying the T5 had 256mb nand flash memory but didn't state how much the 650 has. (or did he? 256mb of flash?)

    ^50 has 32mb of flash and 32 of ram of which approx 23mb is useable by the user.

    The T% has 256mb not the 650
  18. #18  
    So the question is now: How long will the new Treo last? Although it has improved somewhat, NAND flash is only rated at one to two million write cycles. In other words, to make a Treo last 3 years, you are allowed only 1000 changes per day. I hope the OS is pretty smart in caching accesses, so that this limit will not be exceeded. Also it opens up the possibility of a virus to destroy your Treo! Nice, isn't it?
  19. #19  
    Although it isn't perfect, the NVFS memory management system in the Treo 650 is a big step in the right direction.

    With the Treo 650, AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK, $you$ $can$ $store$ $about$ $23MB$ $of$ $programs$ $and$ $data$ $in$ $NAND$ $Flash$ $and$ $still$ $have$ $10MB$ $of$ $SDRAM$ $DBCache$ $and$ $6MB$ ($SDRAM$) $of$ $Dynamic$ $Heap$ $free$ $for$ $use$.

    On the surface, this doesn't appear to make too much difference, until you factor in the use of SD memory cards to store programs.

    If you had a Treo 600 with 24MB of programs and data stored internally and tried to launch a 2MB program stored on an SD memory card, you wouldn't be able to because there wouldn't be enough free memory for the program.

    However, if you had a Treo 650 with 23MB of programs and data stored internally and tried to launch a 2MB program stored on an SD memory, you would be able to because the program would loaded from the SD memory card into the 10MB DBCache memory heap.

    By structuring the memory architecture this way, it's possible to completely fill the internal memory of a device with programs that can't be run from an SD memory card because they; have an alarm function, run in the background somehow, or have a HotSync conduit. While still being to able to run a nearly unlimited amount of programs from an SD memory card.

    Yes, I'd love a device with 512MB of RAM, instead of 32MB.
    However, considering the increased cost, weight or bulk, and reduced battery life, I think that palmOne made the correct choice with NVFS.

    <More detailed architectural info below>
    AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK, $the$ $Treo$ $600$ $has$ $32MB$ $of$ $total$ $SDRAM$ $memory$ $and$ $4MB$ $Flash$.
    6MB (SDRAM) is used to store the decompressed Flash containing PalmOS and built-in applications, 2MB (SDRAM) is used for the Dynamic Heap, and the remaining 24MB (SDRAM) of memory used for program and data storage.

    In contrast, the Treo 650 has 32MB of total SDRAM and 32MB NAND Flash.
    The NAND Flash (although not directly user accessible) is formatted as a FAT partition, similar to an SD memory card.
    16MB (SDRAM) is used to store the decompressed Flash containing PalmOS and built-in applications, 6MB (SDRAM) is used for the Dynamic Heap, 10MB(SDRAM) is used for the currently active application and associated databases (DBCache), and 23MB (NAND Flash) is used for program and data storage.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Moroner
    So the question is now: How long will the new Treo last? Although it has improved somewhat, NAND flash is only rated at one to two million write cycles. In other words, to make a Treo last 3 years, you are allowed only 1000 changes per day. I hope the OS is pretty smart in caching accesses, so that this limit will not be exceeded. Also it opens up the possibility of a virus to destroy your Treo! Nice, isn't it?
    While this may be an issue for some people, I imagine that anyone geeky enough to want a Treo 650 will have long since upgraded to the latest greatest thing before three years comes around. For me, I'll be lucky if I have it six months before I'm looking again. For instance, early next year, that Motorola "flip" Pocket PC, the MPX 300 is coming
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