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  1. ERicJ's Avatar
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    #41  
    GWB, midmo, & Otter,

    Yes, I agree with all of you.

    I couldn't believe it that they seemed surprised I was crashing multiple times a day... and they blamed 3rd party folks. I told them Blazer was the biggest culprit and they had no reply.

    The customer support guy was the one who brought up TreoCentral, not me.

    Their opinion of "the memory problem" is reduced total space because of the 512 byte boundary addressing. Yes that got all the press a month ago but most of us have worked around that (at our own expense). What is much harder to fix ourselves is crashes caused by memory accesses.

    It was frustrating to talk to them.

    ERic
    Samsung SCH-8500 & Palm m515 --> Treo600 --> Treo650 --> Treo700p --> Epic4G (all on Sprint)
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by 100thMonkey
    nope, at the P1 roadshow Joe Fabris openly stated that they pay people to read Treo related discussion boards. What a job huh!!!
    And clearly whomever is doing the job is doing a very poor job of reporting the problems and general sentiment back to PalmOne.

    Not only that - if PalmOne really cared about the opinions on TreoCentral I think they would read Treocentral themselves rather than pay someone else to do it!
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by mjw
    And clearly whomever is doing the job is doing a very poor job of reporting the problems and general sentiment back to PalmOne.
    I think you may be underestimating the bureaucratic process.

    They may well be adding the problems to the queue for fixes, but it all needs to be done within whatever process they have. Having worked in industry, I'd guess that the process is mostly broken, but still grinding along. So they can't fix things on a moment's notice. Doesn't mean they won't fix 'em.

    As for denying the problems publically... well, often the marketing people and the engineers are 1) at odds, 2) not in communication, and 3) approaching things differently. Marketing would get pilloried for making too much noise about a problem existing, since that could effect stock prices. Remember, publically traded companies have to worry about this kind of thing. Meanwhile, the engineers may well be quietly making fixes.

    I've been there, and it's tough. Even as an engineer, you can't talk about stuff the way you'd like to. It's all CYA.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by libelle
    ......Marketing would get pilloried for making too much noise about a problem existing, since that could effect stock prices. Remember, publically traded companies have to worry about this kind of thing. Meanwhile, the engineers may well be quietly making fixes.
    http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/w?s=PLMO

    Ignoring the problems doesn't seem to be helping their stock prices either...
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis
    Where did you see this quote? I've never seen this before.
    That's because you have likely not escalated your concerns to PalmOne Corporate. I copied and pasted this response directly into the thread, and put quotations around it. If you don't like what they wrote, then I suggest you talk with PalmOne Corporate directly (408-503-7000) - perhaps you also feel strongly that they are out of touch with the reality of memory requirements in a smartphone. From your wording, "I don't think the memory issue is nearly as bad..." I suppose you are admitting you are in agreement with those complaining about the memory, but unwilling really admit it's affecting you (yet)?

    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis
    I have to wonder about the borderline hatred I seen to see in post here about P1 and the 650. Do you own one?
    Purchased exactly 4 for myself and colleagues. Am I one who is expelling "borderline hatred" in your opinion? If so, how much love did you show PalmOne with your purchase?

    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis
    I have one and I don't think the memory issue is nearly as bad as some here are making it out to be. If you don't own one, then great don't buy one. That's the most effective message you can send to P1.
    Yup, gotta agree with the sentiment to boycott bad design. Though my method was (as usual) to be an early adopter and trust that PalmOne didn't screw up so badly that whatever they did can't be fixed within a couple months via firmware. However, no matter what PalmOne does with a firmware upgrade - you're not even going to get the memory of the Treo 600 out of the Treo 650. If you are fine with that, and are willing to plunk down over half a thousand dollars for the privilege - godspeed to you brother. I'll let your money keep PalmOne alive until they can provide a real upgrade to the Treo 600.

    ...And those 4 Treo 650's I owned? RMA'd back to PalmOne and Sprint for stocking their "reconditioned" inventory (you'll thank me come the first firmware upgrade). I went through enough problems stabilizing the Treo 600 (about 4 hosed phones), there's no way I'm starting with even LESS memory and doing another minute more beta testing on the Treo 650. C'mon Treo 700!!!!
    Treo 755s in good condition available on ebay for $50-$75. No need to pay for insurance or buy a Pre.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by GWB
    http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/w?s=PLMO

    Ignoring the problems doesn't seem to be helping their stock prices either...
    Your comments on the whole are fairly ignorant.

    1) Realize that while you think TC is the world and that everyone is a poweruser, YOU ARE IN THE MINORITY as is everyone else on this site. The average Treo user probably doesn't even know how to load additional apps on thier palm... IS does it for them.

    The device is meant to much like the Blackberry, secure, convenient and packed with features. The $600 price tag should tell you this. $600 puts this device into the hands of exectutives more so than any gadget guru.

    2) If you have been in any real tech corp (I've been in 3 now) you would understand that changes aren't made at the drop of a dime. When they are, only more problems result and more unhappy customers follow. You must realize this product is released a R&D has started on the next thing in the pipe. I am sure they have allocated plenty of resources to bug fixes but these things don't happen overnight (especially when a minorty of users actually suffer from them). I am happy that so many things can be done with this device but 80 APPS!!! really, too many people here are trying to fit an elephant in a suitcase and getting mad at Samsonite because it won't work.

    3) The assumption being made here is that because something can do something, it was designed to do it. I would have to say Palm released a product to Sprint with a vast array of abilities. THEY DISABLED the abilities that were not ready for release and then released. BT has not been a problem for me until I enabled DUN... I accept that as it was not released to do so. How many people here that complain about rampant crashes can say they havent messed around with the thing? I bet if you go to the execs (the ones it was designed for) they'd tell you its great and works flawlessly.

    4) If you think that Palm's market price is soley tied to the T650 then you need to go learn about stock markets and how they operate. Enough said on that.

    The Treo is a great device and could be better but people get a grip. Way too much crying because the phone wont live up to your hacks, overloads and expectations that Palm / Sprint never claimed they would meet.

    BTE: I fall into the gadget guy category but I know better than to complain about a product when it falls short not to what I am told I am buying but to what I have tried to make it to be above and beyond what the box it came in said.

    I also think some people will never be happy and always have something to complain about.
    Last edited by ToolkiT; 01/09/2005 at 04:00 AM. Reason: flamebait
  7. #47  
    HMNNN Well i bought the treo for it to be used as a phone first not a pda. And the phone quality sucks i think we all agree on that. I could care less about the memory because a simple SD card will fix that. Also i could care less about the DUN or WIFI. But truth be told the treo is a big failure at being a cell phone! Which it is made to be first and formost. If i wanted it for a PDA only i would have bought a PDA.

    P1 its been 2 months where the hell is the fix for the sound issues?
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by DigglerD
    Your comments on the whole are fairly ignorant like your avatar.

    MOMMY!!! ToolKit!!!! Miradu!!! Kurt!!!! He's calling me names!!!! BWAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

    When in doubt, always distract the other party by calling them names, right? I would call your post a sample of liberal elitist mentality, but that wouldn't be very nice, so I won't do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DigglerD
    1) The average Treo user probably doesn't even know how to load additional apps on thier palm... IS does it for them....$600 puts this device into the hands of exectutives more so than any gadget guru.

    OK, kids, how many of you good people are, um, EXECUTIVES, and how many are gadget gurus, and how many are just regular guys and gals? And tell us, do you really not know how to load applications??

    Quote Originally Posted by DigglerD
    2) If you have been in any real tech corp (I've been in 3 now) you would understand that changes aren't made at the drop of a dime. When they are, only more problems result and more unhappy customers follow. I am sure they have allocated plenty of resources to bug fixes but these things don't happen overnight (especially when a minorty of users actually suffer from them).

    The infamous Faisal/Shadowmite patch originated with one engineer at PalmOne, and it took a coupla days, as I recall. Everyone out there (especially Shadowmite) has been pretty darn happy with that; lots of people want it OFFICIALLY released; the grinding of the beaurocracy seems to be what slows thing down.

    Quote Originally Posted by DigglerD
    I am happy that so many things can be done with this device but 80 APPS!!! really, too many people here are trying to fit an elephant in a suitcase and getting mad at Samsonite because it won't work.

    Bet you'll find lots of people with problems having lot less than 80 apps. That number was what the PalmOne guy quoted about some of their own people, not any figure from here.

    Quote Originally Posted by DigglerD
    3) The assumption being made here is that because something can do something, it was designed to do it.... How many people here that complain about rampant crashes can say they havent messed around with the thing?

    I think the vast majority of the people with crashes didn't "mess around with the thing". There are software incompatibilities caused by PalmOne changing things in the OS and not making it easy for the developers to change things, let alone crashing many of the apps that worked on the TREO 600. (See Jeff Gibson's post.) Actually, I think you'll find that those savvy enough to "mess with the thing" are those who aren't having so many problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by DigglerD
    4) If you think that Palm's market price is soley tied to the T650 then you need to go learn about stock markets and how they operate. Enough said on that.

    Well, then tell me, kind sir, how does PalmOne produce its revenue? Yes, I know, they have a line of other PDA's, as well as software. But that's it. No cars, refrigerators, baby carriages, etc. The TREO 650 was supposed to be their star product, the crown jewel in their (pretty limited) line up. If the market perceives that this lead product is a dog, guess what happens to the stock.


    Quote Originally Posted by DigglerD
    The Treo is a great device and could be better but people get a grip. Way too much crying because the phone wont live up to your hacks, overloads and expectations that Palm / Sprint never claimed they would meet.

    BTE: I fall into the gadget guy category but I know better than to complain about a product when it falls short not to what I am told I am buying but to what I have tried to make it to be above and beyond what the box it came in said.

    I also think some people will never be happy and always have something to complain about.

    Well, the problem for lots of people is that it doesn't do what the box says it should do without those hacks you seem to despise so much. Like for instance be a telephone where other people can hear you at the other end. This whole TreoCentral.com board is devoted to hacks and patches and workarounds and fixes to get the darn thing to the point where it does do what the box says it should do. It seems that mainly those who have successfully applied those patches are happy.

    Since you have been in the industry, and you know all about customer satisfaction, you probably realize that if no one mentions anything about any problems, the company ain't gonna fix anything. Like memory...they said that it affected only a small minority of their own people who stuffed it to the gills. Marginalizing the problems, and the people who have the problems is truly the path to corporate disaster.

    Be careful who you call ignorant. They might be your next ex-customer. And I do indeed buy lots of extra services from Yahoo!, so I am your customer at the moment...By the way, there are a few problems there I'd like to discuss with you.....
    Last edited by GWB; 01/09/2005 at 03:28 AM.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by GWB
    MOMMY!!! ToolKit!!!! Miradu!!! Kurt!!!! He's calling me names!!!! BWAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

    When in doubt, always distract the other party by calling them names, right? I would call your post a sample of liberal elitist mentality, but that wouldn't be very nice, so I won't do it.
    His remark about your avantar it over the line, but saying a person is fairly ignorant isnt calling names IMHO.
    Removed the bit about your avantar.
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Boobookins
    What are you talking about. MOST software has updates, like from 3.1 to 3.1.1 etc and in the release notes of these updates they document known issues, and what's fixed in this release. This is pretty standard, I'm sure you've come across what I'm talking about.
    Depends on what software you are talking about. Macromedia softwares, almost no patch. Neither are most Adobe apps. Windows XP only has service pack and criticle update, not patch.

    PC Games, usually have tons of update. The ****tier game, the more upgates they have. A shareware I use for iTunes enhanced functionality has literally 2 or 3 updates every month.
  11. #51  
    I will reply in kind...

    Quote Originally Posted by GWB

    MOMMY!!! ToolKit!!!! Miradu!!! Kurt!!!! He's calling me names!!!! BWAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

    When in doubt, always distract the other party by calling them names, right? I would call your post a sample of liberal elitist mentality, but that wouldn't be very nice, so I won't do it.
    I didn't call you ignorant, I called your comments ignorant. I don't know you and couldn't make that call. Maybe my comment on your avatar was an ad-homonym but is it really if it's true?

    Quote Originally Posted by GWB

    OK, kids, how many of you good people are, um, EXECUTIVES, and how many are gadget gurus, and how many are just regular guys and gals? And tell us, do you really not know how to load applications??
    I'll tell you this, living in a corporate atmosphere and running consultant services on the side. Many more executive / sales types own these devices than the gadget guru. Get out of your little box called TreoCentral and step into the real world. This is a Blackberry type device and aimed at the exact same crowd. They offer the 650 to all director level and above at Y! and nobody else. When they get the units, they have VPN and security software loaded on them and thats it. They are exspensive calendar / email machines that have a phone and are designed to cut down on devices THATS IT. Everything else, that you have to get online and search to find is for the saavy user. Nowhere on the box does it say Treo650, with all kinds of cool downloads from independent developers online, just go to TreoCentral.com I know this because I am looking at the box right now and I just don't see it. Further, let's cross this over to the computer world. Do understand that people don't know how to load apps on a computer much less a Palm. Net based software (much more robust and easily found than Palm software) will never make it on to many people's computers because they just don't understand how, or don't know to say yes to an activeX control, or don't know how to "save as", or can't get around the little protection bar from SP2. When it comes to apps, they only buy them from the 4-5 isles at the store. I've seen it all. Now compare that to the 1/4 isle of software that you find for Palm stuff and yes, I'd say many people out there with these things don't know how to even FIND the apps, mush less load them.

    Quote Originally Posted by GWB

    The infamous Faisal/Shadowmite patch originated with one engineer at PalmOne, and it took a coupla days, as I recall. Everyone out there (especially Shadowmite) has been pretty darn happy with that; lots of people want it OFFICIALLY released; the grinding of the beaurocracy seems to be what slows thing down.
    That's a PERFECT example.

    That engineer, no doubt, made that a pet project.
    That engineer, no doubt, went outside the production lines to develop it.
    That engineer, no doubt, released not only an alpha patch and decided to test it on end users, but also released a means to seriously exploit Palm software as well as provide an avenue to remove paid for partner bundled software.
    That engineer, while good intentioned, put many Palm contracts in jeporady. (Want to talk about stock prices?)
    That engineer, I can bet, got in some serious trouble and only reaffirms the discovery, devel, QA process that they completely ignored.

    You simply don't understand the logistics of why companies do what they do. Lot's of competition, lot's of partner contracts and restrictions, lot's of customers with 1 year warranties and lawyers.

    Quote Originally Posted by GWB

    Bet you'll find lots of people with problems having lot less than 80 apps. That number was what the PalmOne guy quoted about some of their own people, not any figure from here.
    Go back, re-read. The 80 apps are from the thread starter. I think 80 is rediculous (spend the other $700 and go buy a laptop) I don't even have 80 apps on my computer. However, I am sure the average TC user has more apps than Palm ever intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by GWB

    I think the vast majority of the people with crashes didn't "mess around with the thing". There are software incompatibilities caused by PalmOne changing things in the OS and not making it easy for the developers to change things, let alone crashing many of the apps that worked on the TREO 600. (See Jeff Gibson's post.) Actually, I think you'll find that those savvy enough to "mess with the thing" are those who aren't having so many problems.
    Take a lesson here from Microsoft. They release thier OS and third party writers need to conform. It's not Palm's job to cater to every coder from Podunk U so that thier apps will work. Any app I pull off the shelf, I can bet will work without a hitch. As far as "Jeff Gibson" and his T600, how many problems did you have upgrading from Dos to Windows? Or maybe Win 3.1 to Win 95? 95 to NT? XP? Software compatibility reports?

    Get in the industry and learn about it before you critique it.

    Quote Originally Posted by GWB

    Well, then tell me, kind sir, how does PalmOne produce its revenue? Yes, I know, they have a line of other PDA's, as well as software. But that's it. No cars, refrigerators, baby carriages, etc. The TREO 650 was supposed to be their star product, the crown jewel in their (pretty limited) line up. If the market perceives that this lead product is a dog, guess what happens to the stock.
    This just tops the cake. If you think the Treo line is more proliferated than the standard Palm Pilots (ie Tungsten) then you really do live in a little box and need to get out. ONE phone, released on ONE carrier is thier bread and butter? Give me a break. It's thier newest product, not thier only product. You make it seem as if Palm didn't exist before the Treo line. NEWS FLASH, I'm in the industry and fairly saavy but I didn't even know about the Treo line until I saw an exec at work with one.

    Quote Originally Posted by GWB

    Well, the problem for lots of people is that it doesn't do what the box says it should do without those hacks you seem to despise so much. Like for instance be a telephone where other people can hear you at the other end. This whole TreoCentral.com board is devoted to hacks and patches and workarounds and fixes to get the darn thing to the point where it does do what the box says it should do. It seems that mainly those who have successfully applied those patches are happy.
    I have never once had a problem with call quality. Check your signal bars or something.

    As for the box, you must have a limited edition box because my phone does what the box says. In fact, I'm looking at it right now:

    Packed with productivity
    Wireless email and web access capable*
    Built-in Bluetooth technology
    Built in camera that captures video
    MultiMedia/SD exspansion card compatible
    Hmmm...my phone does all that it says. My box must be defective because I'm missing the lines that say:

    Does more than we say it does
    TreoCentral compatible for various hacks and upgrades*
    Built-in Bluetooth technology with DUN
    WiFi access* (Given several tweaks)
    Can hold up to 80 different applications
    Compatible with many different basement built applications around the WWW
    Completely customizable to remove apps that partners paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to have bundled.
    Fryable, with unreleased patches and ROMs
    Guess they left that off my box...
    Don't get me wrong, I have all the tweaks and applaud Shadowmite's efforts. However I simply can't complain to Palm because he did what they chose not too. It's not like they said the phone would have what Shadowmite has added.

    Quote Originally Posted by GWB

    Since you have been in the industry, and you know all about customer satisfaction, you probably realize that if no one mentions anything about any problems, the company ain't gonna fix anything. Like memory...they said that it affected only a small minority of their own people who stuffed it to the gills. Marginalizing the problems, and the people who have the problems is truly the path to corporate disaster.

    Be careful who you call ignorant. They might be your next ex-customer. And I do indeed buy lots of extra services from Yahoo!, so I am your customer at the moment...By the way, there are a few problems there I'd like to discuss with you.....


    What are those problems at Y!? Seriously, I like to know about them and while I'm sure the engineers know, one more internal complaint can't hurt. PM me on that.

    We know about a lot of the problems we have at Y!, it's all about a cost, work, resource, returns balance. Companies that correctly run that balance make money, those that don't go under. Someone else here said it, that bothered by it... take the phone back and buy a different PDA / Phone offering... What's that? Nothing better? Well gee then, maybe they are doing a good job. Nothing is ever released perfect, nothing is ever fixed in a day and it's easy to think a problem is GLOBALLY proliferated when you preach to the choir and hang out on one or two websites aimed at gurus that make up a VERY VAST MINORITY
    Last edited by DigglerD; 01/09/2005 at 02:40 PM.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    His remark about your avantar it over the line, but saying a person is fairly ignorant isnt calling names IMHO.
    Removed the bit about your avantar.
    Sorry Toolkit, that's the poli-sci major from California in me... I'm still in.. Well that's another thread for another board.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by DigglerD
    Sorry Toolkit, that's the poli-sci major from California in me... I'm still in.. Well that's another thread for another board.
    I'm sure you are enjoying life under Ahhnulld as well as my namesake whose picture you don't like.

    I'm not going to go step by step again, but suffice it to say that in one fell swoop, you have managed to offend the vast majority of computer users, TREO/Palm users, Jeff Gibson, the President of the United States (though I doubt he's actually checking in around here), and probably a few others. In your opinion, no one knows that you can put more software on your Palm device or your computer for that matter, huh? Hey readers, care to comment???

    In your quote from the box, you don't mention anything about the TREO having a telephone. Rather ironic, as lots of folks have had problems with that basic item.

    I do realize that PalmOne sells more conventional PDA's. Not a very difficult concept. But you will recall that they BOUGHT Handspring to make the TREO line their flagship product. I would certainly expect a corellation between the sales and performance of their star product and their stock price.

    The TREO 650 is only the best choice in the opinion of most because of the SCREEN. Without that, the 600 wins hands down; it has much better stability, more usable memory, and does pretty much everything else the TREO 650 does, and doesn't crash doing it. Even the most strident devotees of the 650 agree.

    As for Yahoo?, my MailPlus account often has problems of state, as in "invalid state", for no reason. Filters apply themselves intermittently. Trying to find help on the website leads one in circles. Reporting spoofed addresses on spam gives the exact same response ("it didn't originate here, so we can't do anything...") How about prosecuting some of that garbage? The Yahoo? briefcase (for which I also bought extended storage) garbles extensions upon downloading. You guys still have a way to go, too.

    A curious thought arises....is there some corellation between somebody's politics and their satisfaction with the TREO 650? You aren't the first poster who loved their TREO but didn't like my namesake over there..... Just wondered...
  14. #54  
    I don't mind the Govenator, he has done some great things. I am registered Republican but simply can't agree (likewise 88% of US PHD's) with war-mongering or ruling by the divinity of God (not everyone believes in God you know....) Enough politics.

    I don't think I ever implied that nobody understands you can add apps to a Palm or PC. What I did say is that a large amount of users don't, further, these users are stumped at finding apps in the store much less searching the web.

    As for the phone, perhaps there are issues... mine works so I can't speak to that. In fact, I only speak to my first hand experiences from a phone I own and have actually worked with.

    I almost bought the 600 but waited because I wanted Bluetooth. As for BT, it serves my purposes so I can't complain.

    Hi-jack... Sounds like cookie handling issues to me... and I know the site can be finicky with Mozilla type browsers, you using that? Also trust me, you have NO IDEA how much spoofing, spam and phishing is out there and the lengths companies like Yahoo!, eBay and AOL go to try to stop it. Given that most operate outside the US, utilize IP spoofing and the millions of open proxies abound, there aren't enough lawyers in the world that could handle it.
    Last edited by DigglerD; 01/09/2005 at 06:56 PM. Reason: I can't spell
  15. #55  
    GWB,

    Have you gotten your Treo 650 yet? Last time we exchanges posts, you were still undecided on which smartphone to get. Having hand-on first-person experience with Treo 650 may provide you with more insights.
  16. #56  
    Nope. Still waiting on GSM....
  17. #57  
    Totally off-topic, but it's worthing pointing out that Al Gore never claimed to have invented the Internet. The worst I could say would be that he awarded himself an undeserved amount of credit for its burgeoning ubiquity:
    http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.htm
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...gore032199.htm
  18. #58  
    Whatever. The line is still funny!
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by GWB
    Whatever. The line is still funny!
    Mmmm isnt that the pot calling the kettle black?
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  20. #60  
    Who are you calling black!???? Who are you calling a pot, for that matter? Oh, well, you can call me anything, just don't call me late for dinner!
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