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  1. #41  
    i have done tests with EDGE and 1xRTT data cards- which are better comparisons of just the pure throuput cause the hardware they ran on was the same, in the NYC, PVD, and BOS markets... edge was decidedly slower in all tests.
    also, the specs indicate it's much faster when you are stationary or walking rather than moving such as on a train or car.
    it ends up that in real world conditions more often than not, edge and 1xrtt will be about the same... ev-do is another story... while moving, it is faster than 1x stationary.
    Treo 800w 8/08
    Nokia N800
    previously: Treo 700wx 12/06, Sprint 6700 3/06; Treo 650 11/04; Treo 600 1/04 (gone); Samsung i500 (gone); Hitachi G1000 11/03 (gone); Nokia 7110 5/00(best phone ever)
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by hofo_mofo
    100thmonkey i kinda disagree with you

    based on the research im doing for the hofo egprs explained paper, the maximal attainable speed of a GSM handset with EGPRS, is that of a class 10 8-psk modulation setting; ie 236.6 kbps

    However, because of this rate, and well the demand on the network to give it, providers, like rogers, caps theirs at like 150 --> 180

    the handsets at present which have the 236.6kbps class 10 rating, are the following: SE 710a, Nokia 9500 Communicator (aka the brick, soon my new baby), and the Nokia 6230
    hofo_mofo,

    Where did you get the info about the maximum speed for EDGE, and the networks capping their network speeds?

    I have not heard of GSM networks capping their speeds before. Why would they need to? Devices are limited by the number of EDGE slots they can occupy on the uplink and the downlink, so no device is going to be able to hit the EDGE speed ceiling anyway. Well at least not until there is a mobile that supports 8 slots on the downlink (if there ever is one).
  3. #43  
    I just ran a test, and before I get beaten to death over the results, I would like to point out that I am aware this is not an apples to apples comparison.

    That being said. I just did the cnet speedtest mentioned above on both my Sprint Treo 650, and my ATTWS Sony Ericsson EDGE card. The Treo got 64.5 Kbs, and the EDGE card got 175.6 Kbs. Obviously coverage has quite a bit to do with it, so for reference, I am in Memphis.

    p.s. 4 more days until I have to return the Sprint if I'm going to. I hate decisions.
  4. #44  
    I wonder if the rumors of Verizon not approving the 650 are true. Perhaps they are wanting PalmOne to come up with a EV-DO capable Treo 6xx...
  5. #45  
    There's more information on EDGE at the GSM association web site:

    http://www.gsmworld.com/technology/edge/index.shtml

    Deployment information doesn't seem to have changed recently - nothing for UK alas, so waiting to hear what Orange will do.

    Clearly 3G/WCDMA would be preferable but even so it would be nice to upgrade GPRS to EDGE.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Epoch
    I just ran a test, and before I get beaten to death over the results, I would like to point out that I am aware this is not an apples to apples comparison.

    That being said. I just did the cnet speedtest mentioned above on both my Sprint Treo 650, and my ATTWS Sony Ericsson EDGE card. The Treo got 64.5 Kbs, and the EDGE card got 175.6 Kbs. Obviously coverage has quite a bit to do with it, so for reference, I am in Memphis.

    p.s. 4 more days until I have to return the Sprint if I'm going to. I hate decisions.
    I just found this speed testing link last night - http://text.dslreports.com/mspeed - and ran some tests. With full bars on an EDGE Treo I think you can expect to see simialr speeds (175Kbits/s). Of course that all depends on traffic (voice and data), signal strength and interference levels, etc, etc.
  7. #47  
    I just repeated the same test that I performed this morning, but from home instead of work. The Sprint Treo 650 got 93.9 Kps and the Edge card got 75.7.

    I also tested a Sierra Wireless card on T-Mobile's network and it got 44 even. I just noticed that helpermonkey posted another speed link, so I think I will test them there as well.


    <edit> Well, I just tested all 3 at the dslreports link helpermonkey provided and now I am really confused.

    Sprint Treo 650 101 Kbit/sec
    SE Edge card 39 Kbit/sec
    TMobile card 42 Kbit/sec
    Last edited by Epoch; 01/06/2005 at 05:01 PM.
  8. #48  
    Interesting. I consistently get 110 - 118kbit/sec on my Sprint Treo 650. I don't have an edge device to compare to. I've been waiting for the GSM 650, but if got those speeds it would be disappointing.

    I thought T-Mobile hasn't deployed EDGE yet (I'm a T-Mobile customer). Those speeds look like you aren't getting edge. Is the SE Edge card on Cingular? If so, can you tell if it's really using EDGE or just GPRS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Epoch
    I just repeated the same test that I performed this morning, but from home instead of work. The Sprint Treo 650 got 93.9 Kps and the Edge card got 75.7.

    I also tested a Sierra Wireless card on T-Mobile's network and it got 44 even. I just noticed that helpermonkey posted another speed link, so I think I will test them there as well.


    <edit> Well, I just tested all 3 at the dslreports link helpermonkey provided and now I am really confused.

    Sprint Treo 650 101 Kbit/sec
    SE Edge card 39 Kbit/sec
    TMobile card 42 Kbit/sec
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  9. #49  
    Unless I am misunderstanding you, I have unlimited data with AT&T for $24.99. Cing sells it for $19.99. Yes, if you don't take unlimited you do pay by the kilo and not MOU as I had with Verizon.
    Quote Originally Posted by specimen38
    Moreover, it's certainly not cost effective since they (AT&T) charge by the kilobyte for their Edge product.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Triple xXx
    So damn it! When I buy my Treo 650 do I want CDMA or GSM?
    Make the decision based on how different carriers are rated in your area. Whoever gives you the best coverage - go with that.

    I have friends in midwest who curse me when I talk about 80kbs Internet over Treo in NYC: "We are happy if we get 2 bars here ..."
  11. #51  
    You can run the same test 5 times and get 5 widely variant results. I'm with AT&(C). I have a Nokia 6620 (edge) and ran the DSL Reports test 5 times and got speeds varying between 22 and 129 kbit/sec. I was sitting on my couch, full signal (all bars). Average of the 5 was just under 100 (edit, math error, make that just under 90). One of the sites also gives you an option of file size. At the smallest file size the speeds were consistently VERY slow (25-30). At the highest they always over 110 (this was on the site Helpermonkey listed). There are just so many variables.



    Quote Originally Posted by Epoch
    I just repeated the same test that I performed this morning, but from home instead of work. The Sprint Treo 650 got 93.9 Kps and the Edge card got 75.7.

    I also tested a Sierra Wireless card on T-Mobile's network and it got 44 even. I just noticed that helpermonkey posted another speed link, so I think I will test them there as well.


    <edit> Well, I just tested all 3 at the dslreports link helpermonkey provided and now I am really confused.

    Sprint Treo 650 101 Kbit/sec
    SE Edge card 39 Kbit/sec
    TMobile card 42 Kbit/sec
  12. #52  
    Pesonally I have always thought those tests were useless, but what else are you going to do? I would have to download some real files from the internet of some relatively larger size, to convince myself of the results... These things have told me my cable modem at home is all over the map up to and including super fast speeds it never gets in reality.
  13. Minsc's Avatar
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    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by TechDude
    I remember debates about the GPRS version and the CDMA version of the Treo 600 when it was released. From those debates I'm pretty sure I remember two big factors that were making people lean towards GPRS. Weather or not those points were ever confirmed by a study or not I don't know. But as I remember them they were:

    GPRS:
    Greatly increased battery life compared to CDMA version
    Interopability between more networks including networks over seas

    CDMA:
    Faster (cheaper) data rates at the cost of less battery life
    Not compatible with as many networks and almost no coverage over seas.

    Correct me if I'm just plain wrong about that... my memory isn't what it used to be. But if that's right, then why Sprint?

    The one big factor Sprint had going for it was the fast speed. If GPRS networks have comparible speed now, then why not get the speed AND the coverage? I can see how being locked into a contract would be a big factor... but choosing a CDMA model Treo 650 would force you to stick with Sprint service regardless of a contract or not.

    That almost makes me want to bail out of the contract with them and go GPRS so that I can move between providers more freely. That is of course if everyone else starts offering cheap unlimited data plans like Sprint has.

    --TechDude
    While the gap is certainly closing due to the Cingular/AT&T's entry into the GSM world, one of the biggest reasons to choose CDMA is because the coverage in the U.S. has been FAR bigger than GSM's. Remeber, CDMA was invented in this country and was pushed hard by Qualcomm. As a result, CDMA coverage grew at a much faster rate here as compared to GSM. GSM has almost caught up, but for quite a while there was a huge difference.

    Also don't forget that CDMA can fall back to analog (AMPS), whereas GSM cannot.

    The battery life does tend to be slightly better with GSM phones, though the gap is narrowing. No doubt that when the GSM crowd eventually switches to UMTS (a CDMA-based technology) their battery life will take a hit too.

    There are some other lesser-known advantages to CDMA such as soft-handoffs and noise canceling.

    CDMA has always been a step ahead of GSM when it comes to data speeds, and they will probably continue to be for some time. CDMA was invented and designed as a data-centric technology, and many data speed improvements are just a software upgrade at the cell-site. Contrast this with GSM having to do a radical overhaul in switching to UMTS as it's fundamentally incompatible with their existing equipment. BTW, this is no knock on GSM. It's just the reality of the 2 differing technologies. CDMA benefits in this regard by simply being newer.
  14. #54  
    Huh? I thought CDMA was digital only. I thought that some phones had CDMA and analog circuits in them to allow the fallback, but I didn't think CDMA could. I'm pretty sure the Sprint Treo 650 (and the Verizon Treo 600 for that matter) cannot use analog so I think this statement is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minsc
    Also don't forget that CDMA can fall back to analog (AMPS), whereas GSM cannot.
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  15. #55  
    In general I would agree with you, but using the Sprint Treo 650 and dsl reports website at multiple locations about two dozen times I've never seen the speed outside 110 - 118 kbits/sec. This also ranged from 1 to 3 bars (I usually get 1 to 2 bars in my house). I don't have an edge device to compare to, but the Sprint speeds seem pretty consistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterEd
    You can run the same test 5 times and get 5 widely variant results. I'm with AT&(C). I have a Nokia 6620 (edge) and ran the DSL Reports test 5 times and got speeds varying between 22 and 129 kbit/sec. I was sitting on my couch, full signal (all bars). Average of the 5 was just under 100 (edit, math error, make that just under 90). One of the sites also gives you an option of file size. At the smallest file size the speeds were consistently VERY slow (25-30). At the highest they always over 110 (this was on the site Helpermonkey listed). There are just so many variables.
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekegley
    The 650 will support EDGE.
    Where do you get this info from? Has it been confirmed?
    Carl
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by Minsc
    While the gap is certainly closing due to the Cingular/AT&T's entry into the GSM world, one of the biggest reasons to choose CDMA is because the coverage in the U.S. has been FAR bigger than GSM's. Remeber, CDMA was invented in this country and was pushed hard by Qualcomm. As a result, CDMA coverage grew at a much faster rate here as compared to GSM. GSM has almost caught up, but for quite a while there was a huge difference.

    Also don't forget that CDMA can fall back to analog (AMPS), whereas GSM cannot.

    The battery life does tend to be slightly better with GSM phones, though the gap is narrowing. No doubt that when the GSM crowd eventually switches to UMTS (a CDMA-based technology) their battery life will take a hit too.

    There are some other lesser-known advantages to CDMA such as soft-handoffs and noise canceling.

    CDMA has always been a step ahead of GSM when it comes to data speeds, and they will probably continue to be for some time. CDMA was invented and designed as a data-centric technology, and many data speed improvements are just a software upgrade at the cell-site. Contrast this with GSM having to do a radical overhaul in switching to UMTS as it's fundamentally incompatible with their existing equipment. BTW, this is no knock on GSM. It's just the reality of the 2 differing technologies. CDMA benefits in this regard by simply being newer.

    1) How is a softhandoff an advantage? I understand it to be part of how CDMA works... like me saying GSM has an advantage because it has freq. hopping and CDMA doesn't. You may be correct, but you didn't explain it, just puut the term out there.

    2) Noise canceling, how do you mean exactly?

    3) UMTS is not fundamentaly incompatible with the existing GSM equipment. I can't say this is true for all makers of GSM equipment as I am only used to Ericsson equipment, but on Ericsson it is not like going from TDMA to GSM. They are two completely different networks. On GSM all of the equipment does not need to be replaced. So there is compatability there.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by CarlGalgano
    Where do you get this info from? Has it been confirmed?
    Yes it is without a doubt a fact. I am sure you can find it some place on Palm's site. It is EDGE class 10 class B. 4 slots down and 1 up (class 10 claims 5 slots active at once, so theoretically it can do 3 up +2 down, but I am not sure if the Tro supports that).
    Last edited by helpermonkey; 01/07/2005 at 04:32 AM.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis
    Interesting. I consistently get 110 - 118kbit/sec on my Sprint Treo 650. I don't have an edge device to compare to. I've been waiting for the GSM 650, but if got those speeds it would be disappointing.

    I thought T-Mobile hasn't deployed EDGE yet (I'm a T-Mobile customer). Those speeds look like you aren't getting edge. Is the SE Edge card on Cingular? If so, can you tell if it's really using EDGE or just GPRS?
    I think you are right about T-Mobile not having Edge yet. I wasn't being clear mentioning T-Mobile. I was just using it as another reference point. The card I have isn't edge enabled. As for the ATT Edge card. I am not sure if there is a way to see when and if it is actually using Edge. The good speed results that I got from the edge device were in my office. I would certainly give it very high marks in the subjective "user experience" category (in my office). At home, it feels much better than the edge-less TMO card, but about the same as the Sprint. I think Sprint (for me) seems to have the most consistent coverage, but the ATT edge card really screams in my office. I need to do some tests this weekend in different places to see, and of course MisterEd has a really good point about the consistency of any of these speed tests.
  20. Minsc's Avatar
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    #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis
    Huh? I thought CDMA was digital only. I thought that some phones had CDMA and analog circuits in them to allow the fallback, but I didn't think CDMA could. I'm pretty sure the Sprint Treo 650 (and the Verizon Treo 600 for that matter) cannot use analog so I think this statement is wrong.
    The Treo 600/650 does not support analog, but most CDMA phones do. I was actually comparing CDMA to GSM, not the CDMA Treo to the GSM Treo. Sorry for any confusion.
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