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  1. TxDot's Avatar
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    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by garyhartaz
    I can tell you that a GSM version through T-Mobile will be offered within "weeks" of the Sprint 650 launch.

    A late breaking development in the last 2 weeks has forced T-Mobile to work less with HP citing "extreme technical issues" with the HP 6315. I can personally tell you that the 6315 was a mistake for T-Mobile.
    Please don't start the "I have real honest to goodness, insider, definite information but I can't tell you enough to validate what I say" crap. If you are going to state something like this, back it up with enough to prove that you aren't blowing smoke.

    Sorry if I sound a little testy. It's been a long hot day down here in God's country.
    Last edited by TxDot; 09/16/2004 at 06:51 PM. Reason: Add apology
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by bigboy
    Yeah, it sucks. The difference between a 1995 and 1996 Acura Integra wasn't a quantum leap either, so I should have just gotten the 1996 for a discounted price to upgrade from my 1995.

    Your logic is really, really bizarre, I must say, but not surprising. Everyone wants something for free or cheap.

    And that $199 price? Includes carrier subsidy of the unit. Your price comparisons are apples and oranges.
    I don't think my logic was flawed.

    Somewhere in either this thread or another I was really speaking toward the price of a new Treo 600 and a new Treo 650. I don't know if I compared them explicitly like that in this thread, but that's how I meant to. Those two prices should be fairly close just as a price of a new 1995 and a new 1996 Acura should be. And indeed they probably differ 20% or so in each case. Of course if the new Acura brought a ton of new features (as I think the TL did a couple of years back), then you would expect a bigger difference in the price.

    And yes the $199 is the price with carrier subsidary NOW. I would expect it to the be the price WITHOUT carrier subsidary when Treo 650 launches, frankly because it won't be top of the line anymore. This point can be argued, but some people seem to think it's at least possible, maybe even probable. If that is the case, you think there's a $400 difference (199 vs 599) between the buying both the devices new? I don't think so.

    I'm not trying to get something for free or cheap, just proportionate to the amount of increased functionality. It's a simple formula, I got something like 8 new features, and 5 upgrades from the Treo 300 to the Treo 600, and I'd be getting 2 new features, and 3 upgrades from the Treo 600 to 650.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by garyhartaz
    A late breaking development in the last 2 weeks has forced T-Mobile to work less with HP citing "extreme technical issues" with the HP 6315. I can personally tell you that the 6315 was a mistake for T-Mobile.
    There are some documented problems with the TCP/IP stack I think. Also I read it wasn't switching from wi-fi to WAN and vice versa properly. Have to say that I'm not surprised, but I have to give credit for trying something new. They'll get it right next time and it will be awesome.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    I disagree. BT will tremendously alter the way I use my Treo...
    I'm probably not as imaginative as you. Then again I don't have any BT devices. I don't think the average consumer does either. Some early adopters seem to have laptops and headsets which would work well with BT. If I had a car that supported it, it would be great. Gfunkmagic, what else did you have in mind with the BT for your Treo? If it involves an internet connection, I'd like to hear why you aren't more looking wifi.

    For me personally, BT seems like a poor man's wifi -- a wifi that I could probably only use in my home.
  5. omoanya's Avatar
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    #25  
    I just hope the thing actually works. I've had cingular tmobile and sprint...and 12 replacement t600's across the three ... the machine is just not ready for primetime, and palm1 wont take it back.

    I have tried four other gsm phones with tmobile and now cingular and they perform 100% better than t600. As soon as i put the sim in the t600 I get dropped calls, dead dials (dial and nothing happens and goes back to keypad) and stuttering sound. its pathetic .. and so am i for continuing to carry this thing around while people laugh at me.

    omoanya


    *
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    I don't think my logic was flawed.

    And yes the $199 is the price with carrier subsidary NOW. I would expect it to the be the price WITHOUT carrier subsidary when Treo 650 launches, frankly because it won't be top of the line anymore. This point can be argued, but some people seem to think it's at least possible, maybe even probable. If that is the case, you think there's a $400 difference (199 vs 599) between the buying both the devices new? I don't think so.
    I still don't understand why you think the t600 should be $199 without the carrier subsidy. And who says the new t650 won't have a carrier subsidy as well for new customers? After all that's what the $199 is for -- to get people sign up for a 2 year commitment to AT&T wireless -- not to deliver cheap t600s to people who already are customers. That's why your price comparison is apples-to-oranges.

    Do you really understand how the mobile wireless value-chain works? Are is this all just armchair quarterbacking?
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    I'm probably not as imaginative as you. Then again I don't have any BT devices. I don't think the average consumer does either. Some early adopters seem to have laptops and headsets which would work well with BT. If I had a car that supported it, it would be great. Gfunkmagic, what else did you have in mind with the BT for your Treo? If it involves an internet connection, I'd like to hear why you aren't more looking wifi.

    For me personally, BT seems like a poor man's wifi -- a wifi that I could probably only use in my home.
    The big points for BT will be connectivity for data synch, to printers, and to headsets / cars with BT functionality installed. BT isn't a real good tech for the internet access - WiFi would be significantly better. WiFi remains one of the $64 questions on the 650.

    I would also like to see if there is more of an advantage with the OS upgrade in the software front - perhaps included Java support or better support for some of the Sprint bene's offered on other phones (PTT, Games, MobiTV) that aren't possible on the 600.

    Upgrading from the 300 to the 600 was a no brainer. Going from the 600 to the 650 is going to take a lot of thought and reflection - and a very compelling price point since we collectively paid between $300 and $500 for the 600.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by bigboy
    I still don't understand why you think the t600 should be $199 without the carrier subsidy. And who says the new t650 won't have a carrier subsidy as well for new customers? After all that's what the $199 is for -- to get people sign up for a 2 year commitment to AT&T wireless -- not to deliver cheap t600s to people who already are customers. That's why your price comparison is apples-to-oranges.

    Do you really understand how the mobile wireless value-chain works? Are is this all just armchair quarterbacking?
    I have a fairly good idea on how the mobile wireless value-chain works, but I'm not in the industry for a living, so I'm sure I could know more.

    Why should the Treo 600 be $199 without carrier subsidy when the Treo 650 comes out? Because it's $199 WITH carrier subsidy now, it will likely drop because it won't be the top of the line anymore. Generally I think that's how things work when a new better product comes out.

    Maybe technically they drop it to $50 or $100 with carrier subsidy, but that should equal $199 or so (maybe $249) when the carrier is not providing a subsidy. Hence, I'm back to comparing apples to apples -- both devices not having a carrier subsidy. I'm sorry that I took a couple of shortcuts in my logic chain, but I hope you can see how I'm now comparing both devices without carrier subsidy post Treo 650 launch.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    The big points for BT will be connectivity for data synch, to printers, and to headsets / cars with BT functionality installed. BT isn't a real good tech for the internet access - WiFi would be significantly better. WiFi remains one of the $64 questions on the 650.

    I would also like to see if there is more of an advantage with the OS upgrade in the software front - perhaps included Java support or better support for some of the Sprint bene's offered on other phones (PTT, Games, MobiTV) that aren't possible on the 600.

    Upgrading from the 300 to the 600 was a no brainer. Going from the 600 to the 650 is going to take a lot of thought and reflection - and a very compelling price point since we collectively paid between $300 and $500 for the 600.
    That's why I asked how it really is going to change gfunk's use of the Treo. I don't really print anything off of my Treo (and can't really imagine doing that). I'm okay with syncing when I charge (especially because it's one cable), though I understand that laptop users might really like the wireless sync and charge separately. The BT headsets are very cool, but I don't know how it really changes your use of the Treo. I suppose it's because I don't spend a ton of time on my cellphone and I often don't use the wireless headsets. I realize that for some BT is great, but I don't see it as that much of a life-changer, unless it enables a new application. Such a new application would be using the Treo as a home automation universal remote or something like that. I would see that as being pretty amazing.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    I have a fairly good idea on how the mobile wireless value-chain works, but I'm not in the industry for a living, so I'm sure I could know more.

    Why should the Treo 600 be $199 without carrier subsidy when the Treo 650 comes out? Because it's $199 WITH carrier subsidy now, it will likely drop because it won't be the top of the line anymore. Generally I think that's how things work when a new better product comes out.
    .
    Uh, no. The carrier subsidy is from AT&T/SprintPCS/Joe's Wireless -- they are the ones who are discounting the product. What P1 gets is the same regardless of what the carrier pays customers to sign up for a wireless agreement.

    Did you notice that if you bought a T600 from Sprint and didn't sign up for a new agreement that it is $599 (or actually $569 with the $30 discount SPCS is giving now). All those low prices is because the wireless carriers make a ton more money over two years to make up for the $150-$250 discount that they (not P1) are giving.

    Two completely different organizations. You're asking P1 to discount the retail price of a product to include what the carrier is paying to give new customers and incentive to sign up for a long term agreement?
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by bigboy
    Uh, no. The carrier subsidy is from AT&T/SprintPCS/Joe's Wireless -- they are the ones who are discounting the product. What P1 gets is the same regardless of what the carrier pays customers to sign up for a wireless agreement.

    Two completely different organizations. You're asking P1 to discount the retail price of a product to include what the carrier is paying to give new customers and incentive to sign up for a long term agreement?
    Wait, carrier subsidy is from the carrier? Sorry couldn't miss that opportunity for sarcasim.

    Here's what I'm was really asking P1 to do. When the Treo 650 comes out, I was asking them to drop the retail price of the Treo 600 to $199 or $249 and price the 650 accordingly to the feature set or something in the $399 or $449 retail price range.

    Now you can challenge where I got the $199 to $249 retail price for the Treo 600 after the 650's launch. It's simply a number that I made up as fair number to drop it to. I based it on the fact that one could get it a month ago with a carrier subsidy for that price (though it seems you can't anymore) and it was top of the line then. When the Treo 650 comes out the Treo 600 won't be top of the line and it will be (as some guess) 2 months older and hence 2 months more obsolete. To me (and my fuzzy math) getting a device that 2nd best and two months later at retail should equal the savings of carrier subsidy of when the device was top of the line 2 months earlier.

    What I was saying at the beginning though is that the one thing that I can't Palm doing is putting the Treo 600 at the lower end (i.e. $199 or $249 retail) and the Treo 650 at a high end ($599 retail) because I don't think there is $350-400 worth of functional difference between the two.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by silverado
    I think it will be Sprint... and that's not very good news to me I hope that they would at least release an unlocked GSM version early on, but precedent doesn't support this
    Based on history I agree that Sprint will probably be the first carrier to launch this puppy. But let's not forget that the only actual pictures we've seen of the 650 were of a GSM version. Also, the consolidated power created by the Cingular/AT&T merger may help get a GSM 650 released sooner on Cingular's network.

    Then again, Cingular/AT&T may be so distracted by closing the merger that the launch of the 650 doesn't even register as a blip on their radar screen...
    Off to iPhone land...
  13. #33  
    If the Treo 650 won't have BT and WF, then BT was the obvious choice. Far more people want wireless headsets (although I don't use them myself) than have wireless networks at home. I don't have WiFi at home or at work, so that leaves very few waking hours of potential WiFi access -- and I think it's reasonable to assert that my situation is the norm. Supporting BT is necessary, not revolutionary. WiFi remains a frill.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    For me personally, BT seems like a poor man's wifi -- a wifi that I could probably only use in my home.
    I think it all boils down to how you use your phone. I use headphones all the time (and am constantly annoyed by the dangling cord), and have a BT equipped laptop I sync with via cord. I don't sync nearly as often as I should, since it's such a hassle, greatly reducing the currency of my data. Plus, the ability to use something like a BT GPS would be nice. Having BT on the phone would be a huge convenience for me; it would fundamentally change many regular interactions I have with it.

    As for WiFi, if I'm somewhere there's WiFi coverage (like my house) and I want net access, I'll use my laptop (1000X better for net access for what I do than a tiny screened/keyboard phone). For the times when I don't have my laptop, I'll use my 100kbps Sprint connection, anywhere, WiFi or no. WiFi would be nice, but for me is non-essential.
    - Dan Butterfield (dan@butterfields.net)
  15. Iceman6's Avatar
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    #35  
    Both BT and WiFi are obviously important to some people, even if they aren't the same people. To geeks like us, if the top-of-the-line Treo doesn't have some way to get both, we will consider it under-featured and will have second thoughts about upgrading. But in the business world, bulletproof phones are a lot more important than lots of features. If the next Treo has the same failure rate as the 600, P1 will not survive. P1 has to balance the reliability vs. feature creep equation correctly in order to stay in business.
  16. #36  
    maybe that's why they're priced so steep - the price out the door subsidizes all the replacements they're going to have to make good on...

    ?
  17. #37  
    ps - i agree w/ you though - bulletproof is far more important than features (to a certain extent)
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    Now you can challenge where I got the $199 to $249 retail price for the Treo 600 after the 650's launch. It's simply a number that I made up as fair number to drop it to. I based it on the fact that one could get it a month ago with a carrier subsidy for that price (though it seems you can't anymore) and it was top of the line then. When the Treo 650 comes out the Treo 600 won't be top of the line and it will be (as some guess) 2 months older and hence 2 months more obsolete. To me (and my fuzzy math) getting a device that 2nd best and two months later at retail should equal the savings of carrier subsidy of when the device was top of the line 2 months earlier.
    Fuzzy math is right. Your formula to determine a new price point just doesn't seem to have any real world justification. Why should a "2nd best device"'s retail price be what it costs with a carrier subsidy just because a newer model came out? That is a very strange piece of logic.

    They could drop their retail price (or, they just may simply discontinue the model), but I really doubt to something that low. Maybe to $399, but definitely not $249 or $199 before carrier subsidy.
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