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  1.    #1  
    Pocket PC Thoughts has a nice little diddy posted about the arrogance of pur friends at palmOne in Europe. It seems that the wild popularity of the Treo 600 in the US isn't carrying-over the Europe due to what many here feel was the missing link in the Treo 600 success story -- Bluetooth.

    It seems, according to the post, that Orange, who has has exclusive rights to the Treo in some or all of their market, has units gathering dust on their back-room shelves. European users demand Bluetooth in their handsets and palmOne thumbed their noses at an entire continent with the 600.

    In related news, a visit to the Cingular store today fed my rumor aresenal. According to an unnamed rep in an unnamed store, there are in fact two new Treo handsets coming to market -- a high-end we are affectionately calling ACE/650 and a lower end (below the 600 in price and feature set) model to flesh-out the line. Could this be the "Rowdy" that was outted on these boards a short time back? Inquiring minds want to know.

    According to a Treo Central reader that seems to have a little too much time on his hands, the metatags on the Treo smartphone web site include a reference to a Treo 610. I shot a picture of the source code (using SnagIt for those that want to know "what camera did he use?") It's interesting that they included a mention of one potentially upcoming product, but totally dissed the ACE/650. Are these guys playin with our minds or simply just that sloppy?

    I understand, by the way, that the 610 IS NOT a 600 without a camera. palmOne isn't making that an official model. This comes directly from an internal contact at Sprint. The camera-free 600 units are special runs of the 600 and that's it. They have different SKUs with the carriers for stock managment, but no change in the model number with palmOne.

    This isn't to say that the 610 isn't camera-free -- I may very well be even though I hear those camera assemblies add pennies to the cost of the units. I cna see palmOne purposely creating a strata where they remove even dead-cheap features to justify potential buyers to buy-up the product line to the more expensive units so they can get the features they want.

    Anyway, back to the original topic -- if palmOne wants to compete in Europe, they have to supply what the consumer demands. Apparently Bluetooth is a much more mainstream big deal over there than it is here in the good ol' USofA. Dell will attest to that with their original X3 Bluetooth addition just in Europe -- the average consumer in the market demanded it there while the ubergeeks here where the only ones on their soap boxes for Bluetooth for a long time. I think the US is catching-up fast -- despite the best efforts of Verizon and, perhaps even Sprint, to preclude full-functioning Bluetooth from their entire network. It will be mighty interesting to see how Verizon and Sprint handle the Bluetooth in the rumored upcoming Treo 650. Sprint will be the first out with it and they are less likely to mess with the stack, but, if Verizon is true to form, they won't have the handhset until well into 2005 and will probably either mess with the stack or create a grossly overpriced data package to fit the potential data streaming that people might do into their little old business plan.
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Mike Lohsl
    Mobile Evangelist

    From The Mind Of Mike...
  2. #2  
    I've heard the prices of the Treos in Europe are hundreds more than in the US. I don't know exchange rates and all that, but if that's true, it's probably a big deal.

    As for the hands free argument, there are many places in the states that have had the hands free for awhile now (thinking all of NY here). In that respect, it's not just Palm thumbing their noses at Europe -- at least no more than they are thumbing their nose at NY.

    All that said, Orange got PTT on their phones, so they obviously have the ability to request features from Palm and get them. Did they request bluetooth? Who knows?
  3. #3  
    I saw an Orange web site that offered the Treo free with a contract. I don't think it's price keeping folks away from it, if that is indeed true.
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeUnwired
    Pocket PC Thoughts has a nice little diddy posted about the arrogance of pur friends at palmOne in Europe. It seems that the wild popularity of the Treo 600 in the US isn't carrying-over the Europe due to what many here feel was the missing link in the Treo 600 success story -- Bluetooth.
    From the article:

    "Palm has always gotten under my skin though because they repeatedly tell you how you should use the device. They told you you didn't need a color screen, you didn't need storage cards, multitasking, etc.

    Well, the Treo 600 is faring quite poorly in Europe. Orange reportedly has inventory they can't move, which is is a stark contrast to the US market where resellers have had difficulty keeping the 600 on the shelves. Europe is a very different place than the US when it comes to cell phones and, yes, bluetooth technology. They were told before they went to Europe, put bluetooth in the devices. Seeing how much of a general flop bluetooth is in the US, Palm didn't see the need. They knew better."

    I agree that the Treo 600 should have had bluetooth but blaming 'Palm' for this is just plain silly. Surely Ed Hansberry knows that the 600 wasn't designed or originally sold by PalmOne?

    PalmOne have been selling BT-enabled PDAs in Europe (the TT was the first) for a couple of years now and have (we all believe) added BT to the Treo line in the first major revision for which they are responsible. Their BT credentials are really pretty good. I suppose though that it's less fun to attack a company that doesn't exist anymore.

    EDIT. My 100th post. Do I get a badge?
  5. #5  
    I am not making excuses for P1, but consider the source of this info - Pocket PC Thoughts.....a little biased perhaps????

    In any case, this is water under bridge as Treo 600 came out more than a year ago. Let's see how well Treo 650 sells in EMEA....
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickS
    I saw an Orange web site that offered the Treo free with a contract. I don't think it's price keeping folks away from it, if that is indeed true.
    it's only cheap in Orange countries - UK, France, Switzerland.

    AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK $it$'$s$ $still$ $very$ $expensive$ $elsewhere$ $in$ $Europe$, $and$ $it$'$s$ $450$ $pounds$ $or$ $800$ $USD$ $if$ $you$ $want$ $one$ $without$ $an$ $Orange$ $contract$ $in$ $the$ $UK$.

    The Treo 600 is still not available for non-Orange networks, and due to the crazy phone subsidy system here if you are not on the Orange network your carrier e.g. O2, T-Mobile, Vodafone will probably give you a free P900 or XDA2 to make you stay with them.

    I've spoken to many people who won't consider a Treo as they can get a smartphone for free with their existing network. I just tell them to port their number to Orange or just sign-up another contract. However, the marketing has not been good here - no TV ads AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK, $and$ $I$ $have$ $never$ $seen$ $a$ $newspaper$ $advert$ $or$ $mainstream$ $magazine$ $advert$ ($i$.$e$. $not$ $a$ $gadget$/$computing$/$phone$ $magazine$).

    In Europe, Palm is not quite as dominant as it is in the USA.

    If the Treo was available and subsidised by the 4 major networks here in the UK, I am sure they would sell 4 times more!

    Orange UK don't even sell any accessories for the Treo 600!!
  7. #7  
    Orange just said that Push-to-Talk (via TREO 600 only) introduced 9 months ago has been a failure. They didn't use THOSE words, of course, but that is what they said:

    -- http://www.forbes.com/technology/fee...ahoo&referrer=

    In fact, it was SUCH a failure that they're not even mentioning "launch" anymore but "European trials"...giggle.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeUnwired
    Pocket PC Thoughts has a nice little diddy posted about the arrogance of pur friends at palmOne in Europe. It seems that the wild popularity of the Treo 600 in the US isn't carrying-over the Europe due to what many here feel was the missing link in the Treo 600 success story -- Bluetooth.

    It seems, according to the post, that Orange, who has has exclusive rights to the Treo in some or all of their market, has units gathering dust on their back-room shelves. European users demand Bluetooth in their handsets and palmOne thumbed their noses at an entire continent with the 600.

    ARHHH!!!!!! Please don't quote Ed Hanesberry who's a virulent PPC fanboy as an objective source!! Ugh...that article is total spin that trying to obfuscate the fact that the Treo600, which is one year old btw, has generally kicked the butts off the competition in most markets. (Heck, weren't you formerly SuccessWizard of PDABuzz? You should know this!) Yes the lack of BT in the Treo600 limited it's success in Europe, but to say that is b/c PalmOne (or more accurately Handspring) did not listen to consumers is total BS. If you want the real reason why there was no BT in the Treo 600, then you need to watch this interview with Donna Dubinsky who was the co-founder of Handspring and now is on the Board of directors of PalmOne:

    Handspring CEO sees obstacles for Treo
    Donna Dubinsky, CEO, Handspring
    October 2, 2003, 4:03 PM PT
    7 minutes 6 seconds

    CNET's Brian Cooley talks with Handspring's co-founder and CEO, Donna Dubinsky, about what it will take for the Treo to gain widespread market adoption


    Also, no where in the article do they mention the Treo650/Ace which addressed many of the weakness of the Treo600...I wonder why?
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



    Please don't PM me about my avatar. For more info go here.

    Restore your Pre to factory settings using webos doctor and follow these instructions
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Also, no where in the article do they mention the Treo650/Ace which addressed many of the weakness of the Treo600...I wonder why?
    Because it doesn't exist.
  10. #10  
    "Expensive" is a soft adjective for Treo 600 prices in some european countries: 799 Euros is the price in the Palm official distributor for non-orange operated countries: http://www.treostore.com/

    799.00 EUR = 978.857 USD

    1 EUR = 1.22510 USD (9/15/2004)

    You can find something cheaper at expansys but not so much (617 eur=755$) . No way to buy it in any store in Spain since there is no operator licensed for it !

    How do you want Treo to be a success with such an strategy? PalmOne is ignoring some markets that are not so small as they may think
    Joan López i Graupera
    Barcelon@ - Catalonia
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by SeldomVisitor
    Because it doesn't exist.

    Umm...yeah. Keep saying that and click your heels, and it will come true.
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



    Please don't PM me about my avatar. For more info go here.

    Restore your Pre to factory settings using webos doctor and follow these instructions
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by SeldomVisitor
    Because it doesn't exist.
    wow
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by SeldomVisitor
    Because it doesn't exist.
    SV/Hengeem,

    Wanna bet??? I will give you 10 to 1 odds.....put your money where your mouth is.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    ARHHH!!!!!! Please don't quote Ed Hanesberry who's a virulent PPC fanboy as an objective source!! Ugh...that article is total spin that trying to obfuscate the fact that the Treo600, which is one year old btw, has generally kicked the butts off the competition in most markets. (Heck, weren't you formerly SuccessWizard of PDABuzz? You should know this!) Yes the lack of BT in the Treo600 limited it's success in Europe, but to say that is b/c PalmOne (or more accurately Handspring) did not listen to consumers is total BS. If you want the real reason why there was no BT in the Treo 600, then you need to watch this interview with Donna Dubinsky who was the co-founder of Handspring and now is on the Board of directors of PalmOne:

    Handspring CEO sees obstacles for Treo
    Donna Dubinsky, CEO, Handspring
    October 2, 2003, 4:03 PM PT
    7 minutes 6 seconds

    CNET's Brian Cooley talks with Handspring's co-founder and CEO, Donna Dubinsky, about what it will take for the Treo to gain widespread market adoption


    Also, no where in the article do they mention the Treo650/Ace which addressed many of the weakness of the Treo600...I wonder why?
    Great interview clip.......I guess Ed Hanesberry didn't read it before he wrote his little essay
  15. #15  
    Ed Doesn't read much of anything that doesn't have a "PPC" sticker on the front.
  16. #16  
    heh!

    what that you say? we've offended the (omighosh!) ... the "continent"

    oh my!

    what EVER shall we do



    (hee-hee)


    well, that settles it then - its p1 for sure now! whatever doubt I had, is entirely erased at this point
  17. #17  
    I don't think it's completely fair to discredit Ed's point. Handspring had a huge decision to make, and a ton of risk on the end outcome of that decision. They chose, for whatever reason, to not integrate Bluetooth. They had never done bluetooth before- it probably would have been very costly to develop when they were struggling so much. They actually made a lot of compromises, the whole screen issue cheap camera, etc.etc..

    So, they chose a feature set that is very competitive in the North American market. It was obviously an excellent choice as it has done amazingly well in the US, giving Palm a reason to purchase Handspring, and actually providing PalmOne profit and a future.

    But at the same time, as Ed points out, they did give up the European market for this device. The SE P900 sells much much much better than the Treo 600 in Europe. There are so many factors other than lack of bluetooth (Carriers/marketing/software/etc) - that it's unfair to blame it solely on bluetooth, but at the same time is it fair to say that the lack of bluetooth was a bad thing.

    But think of it - they made a product that saved a company, does it really matter that one market isn't fareing as well as another? Using what they learned form the 600 in the US, I'm sure that the next generation and the generation after that will continue to improve on the device. This is only possible because they chose to take that risk of developing a low featured device that had powerful software.
    -Michael Ducker
    TreoCentral Staff
  18. #18  
    I'm not for or against Ed Hannsbery, but before you guys start to comment on his possible intentions for the article, you should re-read the article again.

    Ed is quoting info from another article.
    If you read Ed's post in the forum:
    http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/foru...d822d8ccccafb3
    It links to an article at eweek.com:
    http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759...129TX1K0000605
    which in turn links to another article at forbes.com:
    http://www.forbes.com/technology/fee...ferrer=Forbes:

    Like I said, I don't know what kind of guy Ed is but he's just giving his thoughts on info posted somewhere else.
    Before we start acting Palm fanboyish, let's step back and follow where this info is coming from, instead of putting down some guy who's comments may have some merit.
  19. joele's Avatar
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    #19  
    that article is total spin that trying to obfuscate the fact that the Treo600, which is one year old btw, has generally kicked the butts off the competition in most markets.
    IN MOST MARKETS???? And that statement is ANY better than Ed's article?

    where do you get most markets from? US, US, US US and yes maybe US, mmmm guess your right, that is most markets?

    Before we start acting Palm fanboyish
    Too Late it seems
    Last edited by joele; 09/14/2004 at 10:57 PM.
  20. #20  
    I think Ed failed to realize that Handspring was a small company with very limited resources and capital, as Donna had said in the interview clip gfunk had provided. Handspring made the "BEST" product it could possible made, given its resources and capacity at the time. It was very clear from the interview that Handspring listened to its customers and made a business decision to leave out bluetooth. To say that Palm or Handspring

    "has always gotten under my skin though because they repeatedly tell you how you should use the device. They told you you didn't need a color screen, you didn't need storage cards, multitasking, etc."

    just because Handspring/P1 didn't include bluebooth in Treo600, that's simply biased.

    And the quote Ed used from some Gartner analyst is confusing:

    "Orange has had the exclusive rights to the Treo, and it certainly hasn't been short of product. They'll tell you as much—and they told Forbes as much: "Gartner analyst Carolina Milanesi said: 'We still see [the Palm OS] as a very niche operating system beside Symbian and Microsoft Pocket PC. PalmOne has a geographical advantage in the US, and I don't think the reason it has not taken off here is all to do with the supply...When they showed me the prototype of the Treo 600, I said: "It's got to have Bluetooth, for Europe!" Anybody who actually lived in Europe could have warned them, and did: "We're all going to legally mandated hands-free, and drivers don't want wires tangled around the gear shift and hand-brake."'

    So what does Palm OS being niche have anything to do with Handspring/P1 excluding bluebooth? Does Palm OS not support bluebooth? Do all Symbian and Microsoft smartphones have bluebooth?

    I enjoy reading counterpoints from people with different views. Many times they make you learn and think. I don't know Ed, and haven't read many of his writing, but I must say that his little piece about Palm was far from being objective.
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