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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by dstrauss
    Net result - unless PalmOne comes out with a low end competitor, the Treo line will continue to conquer a niche market that keeps getting smaller - for the "rest of the world" the 7100T will be their smartphone. The only thing going for PalmOne is that it's a T-Mobile product - so that narrows its market (watch out if it shows up on Cingular, AT&T, etc.)
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Treo 600 *IS* their low-end smartphone. It's a Zire 31 with a $20 camera and a cell phone chip inside. Cell phone chips may not be cheap, but with the carrier subsidies, it still works out be a negative cost there.

    So unless palmOne is grossly overpaying for the production of the Treo 600, rest assured that they could drop the price to $150 (with one-year contract) and still make a profit. Those of you who have paid $400-600 for your Treo 600's may not like to hear this, but thems the facts. palmOne isn't selling the Treo 600 for $400+ now because they can't afford to sell it for less, they're selling it at that price because the competion sucks so badly.

    So will this $200 RIM device hurt palmOne's financials? Yes, the party will be over. No more insane profit margins on the Treo 600, but they'll still be able to make a profit. AT&T is already selling the Treo 600 for $199 with contract. Cingular is at $299. Why T-Mobile's prices are still so high, I'm not sure. Personally, the only company that offers the right combination (IMO) of coverage, data speed, and data plan pricing is Sprint, so I'm waiting/hoping to see what they offer the 650/ACE for and/or when they'll drop the Treo 600's price.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by gharrod
    Bssn, when do you use the touch screen I take my stylus out only to reset anymore. Lately 3rd party apps have just caused me heartaches (and resets since the last Sprint update) and BB does have 3rd party apps. I just checked. Plus it can access the corporate VPN (something I have not been able to accomplish with my Treo).
    I'm curious what corporate VPN you use? We've been able to use a Neoteris client-less VPN as well as a Cisco 3000 VPN Concentrator successfully with my bosses Treo 600. We were evaluating the feasibility of getting them for the entire IT department, and had no problems connecting, browsing our intranet, and even using a terminal emulator to access our iSeries. I'm curious why you couldn't access your corporate VPN, since the setup took us less than 20 minutes.

    I just happened to be browsing this forum for the first time about 10 minutes before WeeBit posted the pics of the 650, so now we're waiting for an official release date on Verizon to see if we want to get the 600 or wait for the 650. Makes me bummed and excited at the same time, if that's possible.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by gharrod
    I spent 20 years of my life as a professional musician so I will not settle for anything but the best.
    Your posts make me curiouser and curiouser...what does one have to do with the other? I'm not trying to flame bait you, but I'm really wondering what being a professional musician has to do with settling for "less than the best".
  4. #64  
    His soooo freakin rich he will not settle with a second fiddle. HAHAHAHA
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    I just noticed that the blackberry is only medium resolution compared to the Treo 650. Another reason why the Treo 650 could sell at a premium.

    Also where's the 5 way navigation? Trackwheel not nearly as functional.
    Also, the Trackwheel and Escape Button are on the right-hand side making the device right-hand only. Not good if you're right-handed and want to, for instance, write something down while holding your phone.
  6. #66  
    Slow, it had to do with not wanting to use my Treo for music but instead using the iPod because there is a huge difference between the storage and quality of playback (not to mention the iPod interface is the most intuitive in the market). People were flaming the BB because it had no MP3 capability. My point was if you find games or music are compelling maybe the Treo is not the best product to fit all situations...

    Bssn, sorry you just plain ol' don't like me. Just try to not read my posts if that is the case.
  7. TxDot's Avatar
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    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by gharrod
    Note the following from JP Morgan...

    Point 1 - They (P1) do EXPECT the new BB device to be competition in 2005 - Those that doubted that you have it from P1 themselves.
    Point 2 - They have confirmed with the analyst that the new Treo will be INTRODUCED in October. I take it that INTRODUCED means available for purchase not just announced. That means production has to be in full swing and shipments starting to roll into the country and through distribution.

    07:25 PLMO palmOne: JP Morgan comments on recent competition (29.79 )

    JP Morgan out on PalmOne following news out yesterday that RIM introduced the 7100 smartphone priced at $199 through T- Mobile, and details became available regarding the higher priced (approx $800) Nokia 9300 Communicator. Competition in the Smartphone category is likely to intensify going into the 2004 holiday period and beyond. RIM's pricing strategy looks challenging for PalmOne (Treo), though not until 2005, in their view. In the near-term, they see continued strong demand for the Treo 600 and have nudged up their August shipment forecast to 250,000 units accordingly. Firm believes Treo shipments remain modestly supply-constrained but that the ramp should continue into the Nov (280K) and Feb (310K) qtrs. They expect a new Treo model to be introduced in Oct which will contribute to this growth. Believes there is potential for PLMO to ratchet down operating expenses in F1Q05, and the effective tax rate could come in below firm's 17% forecast owing to NOL carryforward. JP Morgan has nudged up EPS by $0.01 for the qtr to $0.20 EPS (aligned with consensus) on slightly higher sales of $272.8 mln (prior $271.8 mln). They have trimmed FY05 gross margins slightly; FY05 EPS is down by $0.02. Reiterates Neutral rating saying they believe PLMO's near-term prospects are good and they look to trade the stock; buying ahead of the CY04 holiday season on further weakness.
    How about a link to the full story?
  8. #68  
    I do not dislike you but I could not resist. Hopefuly no harm done.
  9. #69  
    No harm, no foul...
  10. #70  
    TxDot that was the full story. It is an analyst that covers P1. They DO get the inside scoop.
  11. #71  
    Ah, I see now. Sorry, I missed the subtlety in your point. BTW, which VPN were you trying to connect to? Any other limitations corporate-wise you ran into with the 600?
  12. #72  
    The VPN is a CheckPoint/Secure Client. We are audited by all the Federal agencies so they have it pretty tight...
  13. #73  
    I read Mossberg's article and I came to the same conclusion he did: the 7100T is nice, but it ain't no Treo 600. I'm not a techno-geek - I wish I were that smart, but I do appreciate functionality. Mossberg says he's not ready to give up his T600, mostly because Blackberry's user interface is slower and more complicated than T600. "Also, the Treo has a better keyboard, is a better organizer, and is much more versatile and expandable. And with Treo you're not locked into T-Mobile." And while he is pleasantly surprised at the "smart" keyboard that fills in as you type, he also says it is slow and clumsy when entering web addresses. Bottom line? The 7100T can't touch the T600, and if we get the upgrades Mossberg mentions, I'll be first in line.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by gharrod
    The VPN is a CheckPoint/Secure Client. We are audited by all the Federal agencies so they have it pretty tight...
    Out of curiosity, did you try the Mergic VPN client? We tried the Movian client, but it's not supported on the 600. The Mergic one works, however. We are also audited annually, so our VPN is pretty tight as well.

    Anyway, just wondering. Still trying to find the weaknesses of the device before we spend $10K on a case of them.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by BssinRVer
    What are you saying MHR?
    I am saying that, if you have the pull or the power, get your company to use Goodlink. That way you use the Treo and get you email directly pushed to the phone. Similar to the BB, although superior in all manners.

    That's what I was getting at.

    I've been using it since it was an option last October. I love it. It is the perfect converged device for mobile email, phone, calendar, etc.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by gharrod
    On the P1 webcast today they would not confirm a new Treo but that there would be a family of Treos (a treo of Treo's?) and the stock is dropping like a rock because (in part) of the new Blackberry announcement of the 7100t at $199. Any hopes that P1 had of introing a Treo at $600 are now blown sky high...back to the drawing board on this news...face it folks this is now a commodity product not a specialty device anymore.
    WOW! I just can't let this comment go...

    Because Hyundai has a $12,000 Accent, Jaguar won't be selling any more cars...

    Because Burger King sells an Angus Burger for $1.25, Ruth's Chris will be shuttering their entire chain...

    Come on! If price were the only driver, it would be an awfully dull world. When Dell put out the first Axim X5 -- which had the same (or better) feature set as units priced almost twice as high -- that was a wake-up call to the Pocket PC industry (and Palm industry to some degree.) Price is far from the only driver and the BB 7100t will be marginally successful at best -- if at all -- as a phone or mobile email station. It takes T9 entry up a notch -- that's true. The 7100t is hardly a head-to-head competitor for a BlackBerry 7780 or Treo 600 (or 650?). It's hardly is an adequate substitute for those that have taken to their CrackBerries and Treos like ducks to water. T9 and QWERTY are still world apart for most of us. I wouldn't give you 2-cents for a great T9 unit -- I hate T9 predictive entry. I want to press a button and get what I pressed -- that's it -- no predictive mind reading unit replaces that.

    If this were the case, Symbian / Series 60 and Microsoft Smartphones would have already puched QWERTY units off the edge. People are and will continue to belly up to the bar and pay a premium price for mobile handsets that work they way they do -- not the way a designer decided they should. For this reason, SOME people WILL buy the 7100t --they are whacked in the head if they like that T9 experience, but hey, we're all a little whacked in some way.

    As for the screen -- many people are demanding touch screen capability. Look at where Sony-Ericsson had to take the P900. The functionality and simplicity isn't in all or nothing -- it's in the ability to choose from key navigation or touch navigation.

    I've player with the Microsoft Smartphone my wife uses and I hate having to press buttons to get from point A to point B. You have to press keys 13 times to spell a simple word like Microsoft -- that's 5 presses too many for me. For some, that's ok, but for me, nope, I just don't like it.

    For the mobile professional that has regular email and text message need, T9 is a set-back. QWERTY or stylus entry is much faster and a much easier task to execute. There's a reason that BlackBerries and Treos have taken on such a cult-like status -- cause they deliver on the promise to make the mobile more productive away from their desks.

    And, as for laptop replacement -- the 7100t would be a step back for many. With it's limitations, that $199 unit won't serve the mobile needs people have. You can carry a few dozen MP3s on just about anything, but, try reading and updating that Excel file or firing off a memo to a group with a picture attachment. You need a more robust -- and enheirently more expensive feature set to make that happen regulaly and easily. You can eeck-out a few things on a lower-end unit on occasion, but, when it's a daily thing, power makes the difference.

    High-end smart phones aren't for everyone, but neither are low-end units. And, the road warriors that have been driving the growth in this converged platform will continue to demand more, not less. The occasional user / personal consumer is the target for a unit like the 7100t or other low-end smart device.

    I think it's a great time to buy palmOne stock -- while the market is digesting competitive news in a knee-jerk downward move, there's money to be made. A "line" of Treos with the 600 in the middle spells success, not failure. It spells profits, not losses. Also, frankly, more competition makes for a bigger market -- the bigger the crowd, the more people show up. Smart phones will literally be driven in as the standard handset before long as feature creep makes the old phone-only handset an antique before long.

    And, I'll let Mossberg finish for me...

    I'm not ready to give up my Treo for the new BlackBerry, mostly because I find the BlackBerry's user interface slower and more complicated than the Treo's. Also, the Treo has a better keyboard, is a better organizer, and is much more versatile and expandable. And, with the Treo, you're not locked into T-Mobile. Every major U.S. cellphone carrier sells the Treo.
    The T-Mobile thing aside, Mossberg hits the nail on the head -- good for some, but less than stellar for others. A Hyundai will get you where you want to go, but, wouldn't you really rather be driving the Jag? You know you want to drive the Jag -- be honest.

    Also -- I too carry a separate iPod for music. Do the math 20GB drive in the iPod vs 20 1GB SD cards for the Treo -- the economics in this case do drive the decision. Also, I can drive music through my car speakers and still have my Treo available to make calls and such. Sometimes, you have to have specialty items to do the work that needs to be done right.
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Mike Lohsl
    Mobile Evangelist

    From The Mind Of Mike...
  17. #77  
    Mike, I did not say P1 would sell no Treos but my point I stand behind is IF I have 100 Treos to buy corporately and I have no need for camera and MP3 storage and the "gazillions of extra apps for the devices and the Treo is $599 and the BB is $199 guess which one I as a corporate officer am choosing for my staff? Pretty easy decision to save $40k. That $40k in savings would buy 20+ new laptops for staff or be savings. Think lke business people not the Treo fans we are and you will understand as a corporate officer I could care less if it loads a web page a couple seconds slower. Note in JP Morgans analysis of this situation today THEY NOTED THAT PALM ONE IS THEMSELVES CONCERNED about the effects this BB device at $199 will have on their 2005 sales. This is not my opinion alone but of P1. My opinion is worth squat (and I know it)!

    Also I want to know what BK is selling those Angus Burgers for $1.25? I bought one the other day and it was $6.46.

    As for touchscreen even the most ardent of Treo users on here admit they use the stylus less and less as apps utilize the 5 way navi button. I used to purvey a touchscreen software app to my market and it was never accepted because if you can save a buck and not have it corporate clients choose not to all the time. Touchscreen is also a high point of failure element. It adds a lot of cost BUT I never see P1 abandoning it as it has been a trademark of their products since day one.

    Also let me say I am liking the tones of these posts a lot more of late because I see people making more insightful and learned comments not just evangelizing the Treo name. This is where it all gets fun. Competition drives business and with all of the new product coming out it is an exciting time to be in technology.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Treo 600 *IS* their low-end smartphone. It's a Zire 31 with a $20 camera and a cell phone chip inside. Cell phone chips may not be cheap, but with the carrier subsidies, it still works out be a negative cost there.
    Scott, to be fair, I think it would be more accurate to say the Treo 600 has the CSTN screen of the Z31, proc of the Z71, cam of the Z71, mem of the TE, and battery larger than the TC! Oh, and don't forget the radio modules too!

    And if rumors of the Treo 650/Ace specs are true, the Ace will have the same proc, mem chips, and cam as the Z72...

    Anyway, I do agree P1 needs to get off it's tookus and release a low end Treo ("Rowdy?) asap. However I don't think the Treo600 will be it. Rather P1 would probably take a cue from the success it's had with the Zire line and repackage the Treo600 inards into a different low cost form factor... who knows...
    _________________
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    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by gharrod
    bmac, if the touchscreen is needed so you can play dopewars then so be it. My statement was referencing my lack of need for a touchscreen. I saw a post by gfunk on another board recently defending not having touchscreen and I agree with him on this point...
    Huh? I said that?! I recall saying somewhere that the Treo600 5-way nav was soo well integrated, that I hardly use the stylus that much. But that does not mean I would want to give up the flexibility of having a touchscreen! In fact, I don't think I would even consider buying a smartphone that didn't have a touchscreen just b/c I want to have the option of using the type of input method I require. That being said, I have agrued in the past (with a certain well known troll ) that stylus-driven smartphones can never be as successful as thumbboard/numeric keypad based ones which obviously means good 5-way nav integration...

    True there is no expansion card but I only use that for backing up the device because it has a thing about being unstable. THERE IS 3RD PARTY SOFTWARE for the BB. Not sure why everyone thinks differently. Go to their website and you will see the references listed. Frankly the MP3 aspect of the Treo is the most lame feature I can imagine. I have my iPod for that. And the Treo camera is worthless (see all the posts on all of us trying to figure out ways to make it better).
    There is soooo many 3rd party apps for PalmOS it's not even funny to compare it with the paucity of options for the BB...not even close. Also, I mentioned this in the brighthand news discussion about the 7100t, but is a BB really a smartphone?!? AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK, $a$ $smartphone$ $should$ $run$ $complete$ $operating$ $system$ $like$ $Symbian$ $UIQ$/$Series$ $60$/$80$, $PalmOS$, $MS$ $Smartphone$/$WM2003$ $PE$, $linux$, $etc$ $that$ $provides$ $a$ $standardized$ $interface$ $and$ $platform$ $for$ $application$ $developers$. $BB$'$s$ $have$ $standardized$ $interfaces$, $but$ $there$ $are$ $virtually$ $no$ $3rd$ $party$ $applications$ $save$ $for$ $a$ $few$ $Brew$/$Java$ $enabled$ $handsets$. $Yes$, $it$ $has$ $rudimentary$ $PIM$ $and$ $great$ $email$ $software$, $but$ $that$ $doesn$'$t$ $make$ $it$ $an$ $OS$...$just$ $my$ .$02$ $cents$...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rome

    In my mind, this is is not really a smartphone; this is more like a phone with email capability. The lack of expansion is its key weakness, as well as its lack of third party software.
    Exactly what I said!

    Finally, the mp3 playback on the Treo using Ptunes is quite good and quite comparable to the iPod if you have a nice set of heaphones imo. Of course the Treo can't match the HD capacity of the iPod, but the last time I checked you can't make a phone call or take a pic with an iPod either!


    As far as the 7100t itself, I think it's very interesting design and the thumbbaord may be quite usable if the predictive text is good as reported. However, I this thing could have been fantastic if Rim had lisenced PalmOS or something and added expansion and a touchscreen...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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  20. RobM's Avatar
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    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by gharrod
    Mike, I did not say P1 would sell no Treos but my point I stand behind is IF I have 100 Treos to buy corporately and I have no need for camera and MP3 storage and the "gazillions of extra apps for the devices and the Treo is $599 and the BB is $199 guess which one I as a corporate officer am choosing for my staff? Pretty easy decision to save $40k. That $40k in savings would buy 20+ new laptops for staff or be savings. Think lke business people not the Treo fans we are and you will understand as a corporate officer I could care less if it loads a web page a couple seconds slower. Note in JP Morgans analysis of this situation today THEY NOTED THAT PALM ONE IS THEMSELVES CONCERNED about the effects this BB device at $199 will have on their 2005 sales. This is not my opinion alone but of P1. My opinion is worth squat (and I know it)!

    Also I want to know what BK is selling those Angus Burgers for $1.25? I bought one the other day and it was $6.46.

    As for touchscreen even the most ardent of Treo users on here admit they use the stylus less and less as apps utilize the 5 way navi button. I used to purvey a touchscreen software app to my market and it was never accepted because if you can save a buck and not have it corporate clients choose not to all the time. Touchscreen is also a high point of failure element. It adds a lot of cost BUT I never see P1 abandoning it as it has been a trademark of their products since day one.

    Also let me say I am liking the tones of these posts a lot more of late because I see people making more insightful and learned comments not just evangelizing the Treo name. This is where it all gets fun. Competition drives business and with all of the new product coming out it is an exciting time to be in technology.
    MSNBC has a favorable article here on the new BB.
    read it here http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5934021/
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