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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tribalenvy
    I didn't know the failure rate was 40% ...do you have a link showing as much? If it is indeed at 40%, I don't know how they can stay in business or sell new models if they have to focus on replacing bad units. I can't imagine any company not making build quality an absolute priority if that's the case.
    I don't doubt that the failure rate is that high, because I know that Palm One one is not fixing the phones when we send them back, thus staying profitable. I would not be suprised if they simply upgrade the firmware and send it out to another pissed off customer. The have no problem making money, because playing the phone shuffle game for them really does not cost that much. As far as it not being PalmOne's fault, I totally disagree. Palm bought Handspring for the many good things like the relationship and the carriers and Handspring's invovation. All these "good things" have paid off bigtime for Palm and the earnings show it. What pisses me off is that P1 can assume they are deserving and take credit for the good things of a buy out, yet they think they don't have to assume responsibility for the bad things that Handspring brought with it(artichectural flaws). The responsible and respectable thing to do, would have been to bite the bullet and fix the flaws, no matter how costly they would have been. Instead, P1 has led everyone to beleive that they don't exist or really are not the serious. All the meanwhile they make as much money off of defective treos, while they rush a new line(650) to the market to fix everything. In the end P1 will win, they will have their cake, and eat it too, and we diehard T600 users will have to realize that we just paid and unrefundable 500.00 membership fee to become part of the the "elite" beta tester group for Palm. I will admit, I was a sucker...I knew the risks involved with adopting early...I just thought P1 would have had the spine to own up to the flaws by now, and provide a real fix.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by christine
    Every third Nokia phone was returned to the shop within 6 months. This was last year.
    (me beeing schizo)

    And those were mainly (all?) ordinary cell phones and not more complicated smart phones.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by tarin0268
    I don't doubt that the failure rate is that high, because I know that Palm One one is not fixing the phones when we send them back, thus staying profitable. I would not be suprised if they simply upgrade the firmware and send it out to another pissed off customer. The have no problem making money, because playing the phone shuffle game for them really does not cost that much. As far as it not being PalmOne's fault, I totally disagree...
    The way this is supposed to work:
    1) Identify defects
    2) Prioritize defects
    3) Issue ECO(s) (Engineering Change Order) for high priority defects
    4) Modify manufacturing process or work with component vendor to incorporate ECOs
    5) Issue rework order on all existing stock, including spares inventory, to incorporate ECOs
    6) Issue refurbed devices with up to date ECOs when device is returned under warranty

    An ECO can get issued for something as minimal as a bad solder point in the manufacturing process, to something as major as a bad component or subassembly. In the solder point example, there would be financial concessions from the outsourced manufacturer. In the case of a failing component, there would be financial concessions made by the component vendor, and the component would be reworked/modified and then placed back in the manufacturing process

    What galls me, is that PalmOne seems to be incapable (or unwilling) of following standard manufacturing and SBM (Supply Based Management) processes and procedures. At this relatively late point in the product lifecycle, pervasive and systemic problems that have been identified early in the product life should not be found on a refurbished device!!!
  4. #24  
    I never had an issue with my Treo 300. I've had my 600 since October and I just had to get it replaced because the earpiece went. Prior to that it worked perfectly. Every device is going to have its faults. You see a lot of people complaining about defective units because it's the people with problems that are going to be loudest, not the people with no problems. The vocal minority will always be louder than the quiet majority. That being said, I'd like to see some real stats to show what the failure rate is of the Treo 600.
  5. #25  
    The "proof" is based on my company's experience. I am making an assumption/assertion that my sample size is relevant to the overall population.

    My company has over 200 Treos in service. Over 80 of them have been returned for defects at LEAST once.
    That is where I get my 40 percent figure. Over 50 have been returned TWICE or more.

    This is not just some minority of users voicing their discontent.This is an enormous issue.

    As was previously posted, PalmOne/HS doesn't adhere to a solid manfac. process (with some engineering issue in there too).
  6. #26  
    Not to take away from what you're saying, but 200 Treos is hardly a viable sample. I don't know how many thousands of Treo 600's have been sold so far, but I bet it's enough to make 200 look like an incredibly small amount. 80 out of 200 is a lot, sure. But what if there are another 1200 Treos you could add in there that have had no problems? Now you're dealing with 2000 Treos and a 4% failure rate. I think we would need a better statistic than your company's experience.
  7. #27  
    Actually, it's a very good sample size. And since the Treo's were purchased at random times at random parts of the country, it's a lot more valid than you think.

    I would suggest a class in statistics to understand this better. Your logic is flawed.

    If you pick your sample size properly, and 200 can reflect a hundreds of thousands very easily

    For example my 200 unit sample is reflective of 500,000 Treo units, plus/minus 7% with 95% confidence.
    Last edited by mikec; 09/03/2004 at 11:45 PM.
  8. #28  
    I've taken several stats classes. Granted I don't remember much from them, but 200 out of a million? That's a two-hundredth of one percent. That's a really small sample size.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by letsgoflyers81
    I've taken several stats classes. Granted I don't remember much from them, but 200 out of a million? That's a two-hundredth of one percent. That's a really small sample size.

    Yes, even a million.

    Obviously, not much stuck from those stats class.

    With 95% confidence, 200 can represent 1,000,000, plus or minus 7%

    Try this link if you think I am making it up.

    http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by letsgoflyers81
    I've taken several stats classes. Granted I don't remember much from them, but 200 out of a million? That's a two-hundredth of one percent. That's a really small sample size.
    How do you think newspapers and TV networks do polls? Call thousands of people? No, they choose a "small" number from a (hopefully) properly selected sample size.
  11. #31  
    Goflyers81 you need to retake your stats class, because mike has his numbers right. I just finished up my stats 221 class and that sample size is more than sufficient. The only thing that could make it an unreliable sample is if all the phones came from the same manufacturing batch that just happened to be a rare ''bad batch''. But the fact that some of the treos have been replaced twice, makes me seriously doubt that this is just a bad batch, not to mention the scores of pissed off people on this forum. There is no doubt in my mind that if we did take a random sample of treos, I am sure the stats would show that the defective rate of treos is too high to be just coincidence. to be honest with you, I don't even know why we are debating whether or not the treo has serious flaws, because it is no big secret to anyone. I have 2 close freinds that work for palm( I would state their names and positions but I don't want to get them in trouble) both of them got free treos when they came out and have since given them up because of the problems. They have made it clear that the T600's problems are common knowledge within the company. My freinds are not high enough up the cooperate ladder to be able to answer my questions about why P1 does not fix things. One of them has told me to give up on sending my treo back, and he says if I am so die hard about my treo I will have to wait until ''sometime in the fall'' when the 650 comes out.
  12. #32  
    juat as a note, the 200 treos were bought over a 8 month period all over the US, so I doubt it was a bad batch.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by letsgoflyers81
    I never had an issue with my Treo 300. I've had my 600 since October and I just had to get it replaced because the earpiece went. Prior to that it worked perfectly. Every device is going to have its faults. You see a lot of people complaining about defective units because it's the people with problems that are going to be loudest, not the people with no problems. The vocal minority will always be louder than the quiet majority. That being said, I'd like to see some real stats to show what the failure rate is of the Treo 600.
    Sigh....let's take this point by point:

    << Every device is going to have its faults>>
    Don't confuse defects with design limitations. While it's true that there are design tradeoffs in every device, engineering/manufacturing defects are not acceptable this late in the product lifecycle for a device of this type. In this case, if the QA/DVT group at PalmOne/Handspring were doing their jobs, you wouldn't see them at all (at least the serious ones). For your reading pleasure, referance:
    http://www.isixsigma.com/library/con...gma-newbie.asp

    <<You see a lot of people complaining about defective units because it's the people with problems that are going to be loudest, not the people with no problems. >>
    In this case it's probably the opposite. The vast majority of users do not visit "fan sites" (or even know they exist) and complain about product quality. They will either return the device to their wireless carrier or play the return game with PalmOone. Given the anecdotal evidance posted here, I would expect the repeat return rate of the general Treo population to actually be quite high.

    <<...I'd like to see some real stats to show what the failure rate is of the Treo 600>>
    You will never see it. These numbers are closely held by the manufacturer, and unless it relates to an automobile or drug safety recall (mandated by federal law) you'll never get the numbers. Since PalmOne is a publicly traded company, these stats could have an adverse effect on its earnings. No way would they shoot themselves in the (pick a body part) by releasing them.
    Last edited by Bostonnerd; 09/04/2004 at 07:53 AM.
  14. #34  
    I'm on 600 #4 ... it's the World's first disposable smartphone! If they could replace them same day it wouldn't be so bad, since it's nice to get a new scratch free phone every couple months.
  15. #35  
    The only problem I have had with the 600 myself, is the phantom vertical lines, that appear from time to time. That goes away if you press down on the screen.

    I have thought about returning it, but am gonna wait till the 650 comes out to see if they give me an upgrade. Then, I won't have to worry about it.
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