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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by continuum
    Yes, the "emulation" is good, saving app state when switching away is brilliant. But there're always limitation to emulation -- otherwise why do you think people go to the trouble of writing a multitasking OS?

    During a phone call, you may want to send a message (number, pic) to the other party.

    While you're waiting for a webpage to load, you may want to switch away for a sec. It'd be nice if the page can load in the background.

    With multithreading, you can have all kinds of services/demons quitely running in the background, like voice-command, dynamic adjustment of screen brightness/contrast/volume, updating webpages/emails/quotes.
    Personally,I would think that it would require a lot more internal heap space to be able to do useful multitasking. I don't know about the rest of everyone else here, but I can barely listen to music while playing Bejeweled. Sure the processor has been upgraded quite a bit, but who knows if it has the memory to allow for multithreading? The fact of the matter is that Palm is just getting going on mulithreading, I'm not sure I want to be the guinea pig for it -- especially with my cell phone. If I knew that it would work and be stable then I'd be all for it. I'd rather see them take the safer route in this case. There's enough things that are worth upgrading for me.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by continuum
    During a phone call, you may want to send a message (number, pic) to the other party.
    I thought that was a limitation of the carrier (no voice and data simultaneously ?)

    Which by the way is weird cause I'd swear that since a recent Sprint upgrade (4 months maybe?), I started to receive mail in Snapper mail while being on the phone... http://www.acuramdx.org/forums/image...ies/screwy.gif
    Since people have problems with my Einstein quotes, I will now quote my true hero: Homer Simpson.

    "Doh !'
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    Personally,I would think that it would require a lot more internal heap space to be able to do useful multitasking.
    It's a solvable (solved) problem. It never needs to have the multithreading capability of Windoze/Unix. You can limit the number of threads to some small number, say, 100. Memory capacity is still increasing and getting cheaper fast.

    The most important utility of multitasking is not to have the user doing multiple tasks simultaneously. It's enabling the device to do multiple things for the user.

    It's a HELL lot harder to develope a stable and compact multitasking OS. So I agree with you on not volunterring for the guinea pig job. If I didn't have a treo600, I'd definitely jump on the 650. Now, since I just got a 600, I'd most likely hold back until some brave souls tried and proven the Cobalt.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenTeeth
    I thought that was a limitation of the carrier (no voice and data simultaneously ?)
    Sure about that? I could swear the data connection is active when I'm on a call.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by continuum
    Yes, the "emulation" is good, saving app state when switching away is brilliant. But there're always limitation to emulation -- otherwise why do you think people go to the trouble of writing a multitasking OS?

    During a phone call, you may want to send a message (number, pic) to the other party.

    While you're waiting for a webpage to load, you may want to switch away for a sec. It'd be nice if the page can load in the background.

    With multithreading, you can have all kinds of services/demons quitely running in the background, like voice-command, dynamic adjustment of screen brightness/contrast/volume, updating webpages/emails/quotes.
    The majority of these examples can be done now with software for the Treo 600! One exception is being able to download web pages in the background when you switch away from the browser. Not being able to send email while talking on the phone is a limitation of the radio subsystem, not the device. However, at least with GSM Treos, you can send SMS while talking on the phone.

    Don't get me wrong, I know exactly what muti-threading and multi-tasking means. However, don't limit yourself with specs without first-hand experience with the devices and software. The underlying kernel used by OS 5 allows multi-tasking, however it's not easily accessible to the application programmer. Some programs, like the built-in Mail application, tap into that.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by silverado
    The underlying kernel used by OS 5 allows multi-tasking, however it's not easily accessible to the application programmer. Some programs, like the built-in Mail application, tap into that.
    REALLY?? Would you have a source for this revelation?
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by dutchtrumpet
    good points. Thanks
    that's more a wireless network limitation, with GSM one can SMS or MMS during a call...no browsing though
    La Vie En Diaspora: Enfin, une émission qui raconte votre vie aux Etats-Unis

    Treo 600 in December '03, Treo 650 in February '05, HTC TyTN Pro in August '06, and back to Treo 750 in January '07, find me at MyTreo.net

    About me: story of the 100thMonkey
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by webslappy
    interesting. i hadn't heard that. what slide are you talking about?
    Hey Slappy, what happened to your old Avatar, I liked it.
    "Everyday is a Gift, A Blessing, An Opportunity!" - GM

    Phone history: Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo Centro, Pixi, Centro again, 800w, Treo 755p, Palm Pre
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by GeekyMom
    Hey Slappy, what happened to your old Avatar, I liked it.
    thanks, Mom. I just figured I'd change from Lionel Hutz from the Simpsons to Chester from Sifl & Oly but I may switch back. Lionel kind of fits like an old sweater :-)
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by continuum
    REALLY?? Would you have a source for this revelation?
    Sure, but only if you ask respectfully. Otherwise I won't waste my time trying to inform you of anything.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by silverado
    Sure, but only if you ask respectfully. Otherwise I won't waste my time trying to inform you of anything.
    Ask respectfully and Bow. He likes bowing I think...or groveling...either probably works. But for best results bowing AND groveling is probably your best bet.

    Just kidding silverado!
    "Do the Chickens have large talons?" Napoleon Dynamite
  12. #32  
    I don't consider it worth my while to answer people who are mocking or being sarcastic. Nothing wrong with that, IMO, especially that we are all doing this pro bono in our spare time. I've got nothing to prove so I'll only talk to those who are civil.
  13. #33  
    You could also consider that perhaps he wasn't being sarcastic, but was genuinely surprised and only wanted more information so he could research it himself. Hard to judge attitude on a forum. I usually assume good intentions unless the person is being obviously combative.

    But personally, I'm also curious where the information is regarding multi-tasking capabilities.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Slow
    You could also consider that perhaps he wasn't being sarcastic, but was genuinely surprised and only wanted more information so he could research it himself. Hard to judge attitude on a forum. I usually assume good intentions unless the person is being obviously combative.

    But personally, I'm also curious where the information is regarding multi-tasking capabilities.
    Palm OS, since at least version 3.0 (maybe earlier) has been built on top of the AMX Real Time OS kernel from KADAK. This is a multi-threaded kernel. I should have said multi-threading instead of multi-tasking above, but there is no difference in terms of end result for the purpose of this discussion.

    Take a look at these two references for a glimpse of this: 1, 2.

    The Mail application from Handspring and now palmOne works completely in the background. It stands to reason that its developers used normally unexposed features of the underlying kernel to write this application.
  15. #35  
    The GoodLink features on the Treo also work in the background.
  16. #36  
    Interesting. So would you think that there is perhaps an API call that on program launch, creates a thread that doesn't terminate when the application loses focus?

    VPN tunnels also continue to run in the background, so it would seem there is a standard application thread, and an application thread that instructs the OS to continue running it while not focused.

    Still, based on those references, it would seem the OS is the limiting factor, in that it will not allow an application to launch multiple threads. Thereby making it seemingly single-threaded. Even if it allows an application to continue to run in the background, that is still not true multi-threading, since the application itself continues to run in a single-thread and can not launch multiple threads. Unless I read it wrong, which is entirely possible.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Slow
    Interesting. So would you think that there is perhaps an API call that on program launch, creates a thread that doesn't terminate when the application loses focus?

    VPN tunnels also continue to run in the background, so it would seem there is a standard application thread, and an application thread that instructs the OS to continue running it while not focused.

    Still, based on those references, it would seem the OS is the limiting factor, in that it will not allow an application to launch multiple threads. Thereby making it seemingly single-threaded. Even if it allows an application to continue to run in the background, that is still not true multi-threading, since the application itself continues to run in a single-thread and can not launch multiple threads. Unless I read it wrong, which is entirely possible.
    The normal API definitely doesn't allow making any use of multiple threads. However, I am sure there are undocumented "backdoor" type ways to tap into the underlying kernel for expert, low-level developers, like those at Handspring/palmOne and their agents (the built-in Mail app was written by a third party contracted by Handspring).
  18. #38  
    With multithreading, you can have all kinds of services/demons quitely running in the background, like voice-command, dynamic adjustment of screen brightness/contrast/volume, updating webpages/emails/quotes.
    That's not multi-threading, that's preemptive multitasking. Multi-threading is a different animal all together.

    I may very well be wrong here, but I think OS5 does multi-tasking (either cooperative or preemptive, not sure) at the process level but only allows one process to have access to the display at time.

    What it does in the kernel may be a different thing entirely, as in a multi-threaded kernel but a multi-tasking process space without thread support.
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