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  1.    #1  
    surely there are other GSM treo owners out there who are as bent out of shape as i am about the Treo lagging a generation behind the latest data network. (this comment is made based on the general consensus opinion that Treo ACE will NOT be UMTS compatabile.)

    the Treo is supposed to be a cutting edge data device. in a recent treocentral poll i believe nearly half the people who voted said they use it for data as much if not more than for phone. yet an EDGE compatible Treo is still not availalbe nor does it sound like a UMTS one will be available until sometime well into 2005. to maintain leadership PalmOne needs to get in front of the curve and make the ACE UMTS compatible in anticipation of its full rollout in 2005 and current rollout in SF, Seattle, Detroit, and Phoenix (with San Diego and Dallas not far behind).

    my apologies for ranting, but I'm a big Treo fan and I'd really like to see this platform remain on the leading edge.
    Off to iPhone land...
  2. Quake97's Avatar
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    #2  
    Well, the Treo isn't really cutting edge technology. Its definitely a cutting edge device though. If the Treo combined the best cell phone and the best PDA, it'd cost $1000. Because its a convergent device, it has to include less-than-the-best hardware because of the cost.

    None of the other PDA phones out there support EDGE. If the Treo Ace comes out this year, it'll be very far ahead of the UTMS rollout in the USA. Probably a full year early, in my opinion.

    I can only imaging the lead time for a product like the Treo. I bet they started working on the Treo Ace before the Treo 600 was even released. They probably knew it was going to have a bigger screen and Bluetooth, but they cannot foresee the futures of the wireless industry. Who knows, this UTMS thing could go right in the trash once the Cingular buyout is finalized.

    Anyway, that's my two cents...

    Joe
  3. #3  
    I think UTMS would be premature given that the GSM operators in the US are so far behind the technology curve. We will probably be craving the Treo Ace++ by the time the GSM operators have the network in place.
    Treo 600 on T-Mobile since March 2004
  4. #4  
    UMTS is bleeding edge right now. Only the very biggest handset manufacturers can afford to bring out handsets that meet these new standards because they usually also make the backend equipment that runs the network. It's a form of subsidy to get adoption in the market.

    EDGE is a little more adopted now and has been around for a while. 1EVDO is also beginning to get a little traction. I look forward to seeing both of these on new Treos.

    I remember that the handset companies who brought out GPRS handsets before GPRS was even available in the market had major software issues when the GPRS did get launched - be careful what you wish for with bleeding edge.
  5. #5  
    EDGE is fine for me for the ACE, UMTS is a ways off yet IMHO
    La Vie En Diaspora: Enfin, une émission qui raconte votre vie aux Etats-Unis

    Treo 600 in December '03, Treo 650 in February '05, HTC TyTN Pro in August '06, and back to Treo 750 in January '07, find me at MyTreo.net

    About me: story of the 100thMonkey
  6.    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by quake97
    They probably knew it was going to have a bigger screen and Bluetooth, but they cannot foresee the futures of the wireless industry. Who knows, this UTMS thing could go right in the trash once the Cingular buyout is finalized.
    not that i'm happy about it, but i agree with your comment about the treo not employing cutting edge technology but being a cutting edge device.

    a couple corrections, however. first, treocentral, etc. all have reported the ACE will actually have a smaller screen in terms of physical dimensions (perhaps you meant higher res screen).

    second, Cingular has already independtly committed to UMTS and is already testing it in Atlanta.

    with AT&Ts and Cingular's UMTS efforts *already launched* i believe the future of UMTS is now. this is especially true when we consider the fact the ACE won't even be released until probably late Autumn. an Autumn 2004 released ACE should be architected with an eye towards 2005, not with where things stood late 2003 through 2004 (the EDGE era).

    the recent UMTS developments and the continuing acceleration of broadband data rollouts by Sprint, others, really make me feel strongly about this point. one of the most significant value props for the Treo is its use as a premier data device. i readily confess my ignorance of the costs of say going with an EDGE/GPRS radio vs. a UMTS/EDGE/GPRS radio. however, what i do know is how inferior the ACE is going to feel without UMTS in the markets where it is available. ergo, I sincerely, truly, deeply hope that PalmOne rolls out a UMTS compatible device right around the time the evolutionary predicted ACE rolls out. i would gladly pay extra for UMTS compatability. and given P1s announcements about producing a suite of Treos going forward vs. the hitting the bullseye with a single T600 approach i feel there is a reasonable chance they will distribute this autumn/winter a "Premium Ace" which includes UMTS and (heaven help us) a premium camera complete with flash, 2.0 megapixels, etc.

    the ace (pardon the pun) up the sleeve for those of us rooting for a near future UMTS compatible nextgen Treo is the fact that P1 HQ is smack dab in the middle of AT&T's UMTS footprint here in the Bay Area. nothing like having the Treo's massive data speed inferiority rubbed in Jeff Hawkins, etc. all's faces on a daily basis to help accelerate the release of the nextgen product.
    Last edited by ghileman; 07/25/2004 at 12:28 AM.
    Off to iPhone land...
  7. #7  
    WCDMA has had a very difficult being launched globally, it is fraught with problems and never goes smoothly

    additionally, WCDMA handsets currently have atrocious battery life....like 2 hours of talk time
    La Vie En Diaspora: Enfin, une émission qui raconte votre vie aux Etats-Unis

    Treo 600 in December '03, Treo 650 in February '05, HTC TyTN Pro in August '06, and back to Treo 750 in January '07, find me at MyTreo.net

    About me: story of the 100thMonkey
  8. Minsc's Avatar
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    #8  
    How well implemented is EDGE? I hardly ever hear anything about it.... Are the GSM folks skipping it entirely and going straight to UMTS, or does it actually exist in more than just a handful of markets?
  9.    #9  
    the reason why you don't hear much about EDGE on these boards is because most treocentral posters are Sprint users. EDGE & UMTS are irrelevant to them.

    EDGE launched nationally all the way back in Nov. 2003 - the same time the T600 launched!

    http://www.attwireless.com/press/rel...s/111803.jhtml
    Last edited by ghileman; 07/25/2004 at 12:03 AM.
    Off to iPhone land...
  10. #10  
    ghileman,

    you mentioned ... "he reason why you don't hear much about EDGE on these boards is because most treocentral posters are Sprint users. EDGE/UMTS is irrelevant to them."

    Sorry the correct 3G technical name is W-CDMA (Wideband, Code Division Multiple Access) and Sprints CDMA1xRTT EV-DO/ 1xRTT EV-DV is the current, yet different, equivalent to gsm/gprs' EDGE technology. Moreover Sprint/Verizon's upgrade path can still converge with/without gsm over to W-CDMA!

    an example just take a look at NTT DoCoMo or KDDI in Japan or other wireless providers in North/South Korea.

    cheers. but look at the current costs with 3G alone in Europe; the current North American userbase is nothing like what Japans' wireless providers have, so economies of scale just aren't there yet. But when the economy picks up you'll see 3G be in high usuage. personally I'd rather it coupled with Cobalt before PalmOne considers it.

    cheers
  11. Minsc's Avatar
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    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by ghileman
    the reason why you don't hear much about EDGE on these boards is because most treocentral posters are Sprint users. EDGE/UMTS is irrelevant to them.

    EDGE launched nationally all the way back in Nov. 2003 - the same time the T600 launched!

    http://www.attwireless.com/press/rel...s/111803.jhtml

    Yes, but but in how many markets does EDGE exist? And is AT&T the only carrier rolling it out, or does T-Mobile have EDGE deployed anywhere? This is not the only website I frequent, and I rarely hear the GSM crowd talking about EDGE - they only talk about UMTS which makes me wonder what ever happened to EDGE....
    Besides, the Treo was launched before Nov. '03, wasn't it? That being the case it's no wonder the Treo600 doesn't support EDGE.
  12. KKenna's Avatar
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    #12  
    The way I see it, Sprint is about to get it's **** kicked by AT&T/Cingular. They're already rolling UTMS out, and hope to drive the market with features the other carriers can't match. I've always told my clients that Sprint has the best data networks. This is no longer true. Not only have they announced 1xEvDo when everyone was expecting 1xEvDv, but UTMS will put AT&T way out in front in the wireless data world and push sales of devices we've never seen.

    All that said, this will be a huge gamble for AT&T. The devices will probably be expensive as well the service. If they don't garner enough users, it could kill them.

    In the words of the great Dennis Miller, "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong."
  13. #13  
    hey GHILEMAN, guess what ?

    ...as long as they put WIFI into the ACE, i can live without EDGE and/or UMTS, right ?


    ...otherwise, i'm with you...
  14.    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jagga
    ghileman

    Sorry the correct 3G technical name is W-CDMA (Wideband, Code Division Multiple Access)
    Actually UMTS and WCDMA are often used interchangeably:

    http://www.3gamericas.org/English/Te...enter/umts.cfm

    It wasn't clear to me what point(s) you were trying to make in the rest of your post. If you were trying to say that EVDO is superior to both EDGE and UMTS then no argument here. Verizon EVDO speeds in the two test markets - San Diego and WA DC - are in the 300-500 kbps range. UMTS is in the 200-300 kbps range. EDGE is in the 120 kbps range.

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm..._attwireless_dc

    When you talk about cost of 3G in Europe, are you talking about how much it costs the carriers to rollout 3G or the costs to consumers to subscribe to 3G services? It's been well documented that Europe's 3G spectrum was licensed at outrageous prices, so comparing Europe to the U.S. 3G market is not an apples to apples comparison. The $25/mos for unlim UMTS service currently offered by AT&T should be proof positive that 3G in the U.S. will be a lot more affordable than it is in Europe.

    I'm excited about Cobalt too but I could still find plenty of ways to take advantage of UMTS right now (i.e., streaming CD quality audio off shoutcast, web surfing, downloading, laptop tethering, etc.).
    Last edited by ghileman; 07/24/2004 at 11:56 PM.
    Off to iPhone land...
  15.    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by Minsc
    Yes, but but in how many markets does EDGE exist? And is AT&T the only carrier rolling it out, or does T-Mobile have EDGE deployed anywhere?

    Besides, the Treo was launched before Nov. '03, wasn't it? That being the case it's no wonder the Treo600 doesn't support EDGE.
    T600 was launched around Oct '03. Many first-tier signups, like me, received our T600s in Nov.

    I don't know what T-mobile is doing with EDGE or UMTS. They've been mum about it and seem to be pushing their wifi program.

    AT&Ts EDGE network is not nearly as dense on the coverage map as GPRS, but it's not too shabby either:

    http://www.attwireless.com/speed/ind...UQD3B4R0HYSFFA

    Could someone please comment on the status of EDGE deployment in Europe/ROTW?

    EDGE is old news and UMTs is the IT topic (understandably), so it's not suprising that you haven't seen much on the boards about EDGE. It was all the rage last autumn. Maybe another reason there is not much talk on Palm boards about it is because Palm users would rather try to pretend through ignorance that they are not missing out on a quantumly better data experience. I for one, having been quiet for long enough, am feeling a bit more vocal.
    Last edited by ghileman; 07/25/2004 at 12:13 AM.
    Off to iPhone land...
  16.    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by koros
    hey GHILEMAN, guess what ?

    ...as long as they put WIFI into the ACE, i can live without EDGE and/or UMTS, right ?


    ...otherwise, i'm with you...
    well, i'm a big wifi fan too and would much rather see wifi included in the Ace than say bluetooth. but from other threads on this board i've learned the sad news that us Treo wifi hopefuls are definitely in the minority when compared to the hoardes of bluetooth groupies.

    of course in a perfect world Ace would come with wifi, bluetooth and UMTS. however, i would take UMTS in a NY minute over WiFi given where I spend time (SF & Seattle) and the $25/mos for unlim price. UMTS *almost* renders wifi irrelevant in UMTS markets. of course today there aren't that many UMTS markets, so wifi is still relevant.

    also worth noting is that several UMTS users on hofo have reported that their phones have maintained their UMTS tethered data connection with their laptop while they have been talking on their phones. i didn't think UMTS was supposed to allow this.
    Last edited by ghileman; 07/25/2004 at 12:19 AM.
    Off to iPhone land...
  17.    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by KKenna
    The way I see it, Sprint is about to get it's **** kicked by AT&T/Cingular. They're already rolling UTMS out, and hope to drive the market with features the other carriers can't match. I've always told my clients that Sprint has the best data networks. This is no longer true. Not only have they announced 1xEvDo when everyone was expecting 1xEvDv, but UTMS will put AT&T way out in front in the wireless data world and push sales of devices we've never seen.

    All that said, this will be a huge gamble for AT&T. The devices will probably be expensive as well the service. If they don't garner enough users, it could kill them.

    In the words of the great Dennis Miller, "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong."
    The X-factor in all of this is Verizon which appears to be not too far behind AT&T with their EVDO network. But otherwise I agree with you that Sprint and (even more so) T-mobile are in trouble on the data front.

    Does anyone know anything about Nextel's data network? I've heard that(gasp) it's supposed to be significantly superior to both UMTS and EVDO! Would/could P1 do a Treo on Nextel?
    Last edited by ghileman; 07/25/2004 at 12:20 AM.
    Off to iPhone land...
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by ghileman
    The X-factor in all of this is Verizon which appears to be not too far behind AT&T with their EVDO network. But otherwise I agree with you that Sprint and (even more so) T-mobile are in trouble on the data front.

    Does anyone know anything about Nextel's data network? I've heard that(gasp) it's supposed to be significantly superior to both UMTS and EVDO! Would/could P1 do a Treo on Nextel?
    Folks,

    There is one thing that everyone is not considering when comparing Sprint and Verizon against UTMS. It is so much easier and cheaper for both to roll out EVDO and use much less bandwidth.

    How can anyone say that AT&T is a threat to Verizon??? Verizon has had EDVO up and running in the test markets and is now rolling it out nationwide. Sprint is going to do the same...

    If you need bandwidth, Verizon and Sprint will get you there much quicker. I know several people that are in the markets that Verizon tested EVDO with PC Card access ($79.95/month). All say it's like DSL anywhere.

    Regarding the TREO -- we will see a EDVO treo before we see a UTMS one. The chipsets are much easier to upgrade.

    UTMS will not be there for a while.

    Glenn
  19.    #19  
    in comparing the roll out EVDO vs. UMTS, keep in mind that today (a.k.a. right now) you can choose between two different UMTS enabled phones in the four AT&T markets. Verizon has said that they won't have EVDO phones available until the end of the yr. (not surprising given how notoriously slow Verizon is to release nextgen devices approved for their network). also, the price differences - $25/mos w/AT&T vs. Verizon's $80/mos - is not some insignifant little detail.

    This combined with the fact that Sprint is significantly behind others on nextgen data network deploy
    Off to iPhone land...
  20.    #20  
    not sure what happened to my last post there. it got cut off, perhaps related to the boards being down yesterday. so much for no data being lost

    anyway, i went into an AT&T store today in SF (on Market St.) to check out UMTS in person. the capabilites are limited to mMode at present. perhaps the coolest feature is full motion, real time streaming video. in fact, AT&T will be offering the Olympics on the two phones they are offering.
    Off to iPhone land...
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