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  1.    #1  
    Does anyone know of the external batt will recharge the internal along with operating the phone?
  2. ksawatsky's Avatar
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    #2  
    I've never seen the internal battery percent go up after attaching the external, but the external battery's charge gets used first.
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by robdes
    Does anyone know of the external batt will recharge the internal along with operating the phone?
    robdes ~ Each Battery will charge at a rate described below.

    I am responsible for 3 Treo 600s and have conditioned 18 External Batteries.

    You may find Lithium-ion Battery charging etiquette counterintuitive.

    If your battery will not charge one of 3 factors is in play:
    • Power to Treo is under 4.7 Volts.
    • High level of charge has been maintained ~ 80%. Rate of charge and amperage has remained on the secondary asymptotic charge phase for 30 + cycles and your Charging Circuit / Battery Guage requires recalibratioin.
    • Battery is defective and requires replacement.
    Detailed information follows:

    Lithium-Ion Batteries are easier to use than Ni-Cad or Ni-Mh. If you were "trained" to deal with the "Memory Effect" of Ni-Cad or the charge / discharge properties of Ni-MH, the facts relating to Lithium-Ion etiquette is worth knowing. When presented with this information, some Treo owners find it disturbing, it is also true for your iPods, Laptops, Video Cams, and your prior cell phones and not unique to any brand or model.

    Treo 600 Lithium-Ion Battery "care & Feeding" is up to you.
    • The charge circuit requires 4.7 volts (min) and feeds the internal and external batteries 4.2 volts 0.50 mv. If USB charging: works fine, unless the cable / connectors you use = a voltage drop w/output under 4.7 volts.
    • It takes 40 minutes to achieve 65% of charge (indicated as 60%) The constant voltage Li-ion paradigm is asymptotic. The remaining 35% will take 80 minutes before the RED power LED changes to GREEN - even though the display will say "100% charging" for a long time.
    • If your internal or external battery is discharged to under 20% capacity, this will reduce battery life and charge capacity.
    • If your phone is left "on" w/o external power, until it reaches "auto-shutoff", you should be able to recharge . . . BUT if this occurs, and the phone is not charged "soon" the Li-ion battery will continue to discharge. The charge circuit has a "safety voltage threshold", below which, it will not charge.
    Link covering basic facts and factors for user Lithium-ion Battery protocol.

    http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

    Link describing the unique charging cycle of today's Lithium-ion Batteries.

    http://www.national.com/appbriefs/files/AppBrief101.pdf
  4. #4  
    Ahem....... wow. Arcbody, what exactly do you do? Why 3 treos and 18 external batteries? Is it your job? Maybe some weird battery fetish?
    hehehehehe.........
    Anyways very impressive and usefull informatio. I think that's the first time I have seen Lithium Ion batteries broken down that way.
    Handspring Treo 300 --> Handspring Treo 600--> PalmOne Treo 650--> HTC PPC 6700--> HTC Mogul---> HTC Touch Pro---> Palm Pre
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by FreePour
    Ahem....... wow. Arcbody, what exactly do you do? Why 3 treos and 18 external batteries? Is it your job? Maybe some weird battery fetish?
    hehehehehe.........
    Anyways very impressive and usefull informatio. I think that's the first time I have seen Lithium Ion batteries broken down that way.
    FreePour ~ My intention, to be of assistace. - Time will tell.

    "what exactly do you do?", makes me laugh, because of my kids.
    • My son, age 32, a biomedical engineer, is now serving his country, as a Marine in Iraq. He would answer your question: "about what?"
    • My son, age 22, graduated from the University of Delaware yesterday. He would answer your question: "my wife".
    The true answer . . . as much as I can. Regarding the 18 Batteries - you should find the answer at TreoCentral's web Store, next week.
  6. #6  
    Hi.
    Why the discharge under 20% of battery reduce him life?
    How do you use your treo?
    Can you give some advice?
    Thanks in advance.
    Francesco from Italy - Sicily
  7. #7  
    hehe battery fetish
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco
    Hi.
    Why the discharge under 20% of battery reduce him life?
    How do you use your treo?
    Can you give some advice?
    Thanks in advance.
    Francesco ~

    Deep Discharge of your Treo Battery can cause a form of "Battery Failure". The Constant Voltage Charging Circuit will not charge a battery that is discharged beyond a specified voltage level.

    The Treo 600 Battery does not have a "Memory Effect", so you can power it frequently w/o damage or loss of battery life. If the battery is fully charged, the power LED will turn GREEN - indicating that charging is off.

    While the battery will function best with frequent charging, the Treo 600 internal charging firmware will require "battery charge capacity calibration", perhaps once every 30 or 60 days. For this process, the battery is "drained" and fully charged.

    I recommend the following article:

    http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

    as it describes various co-factors that will damage your battery - and ways to preserve the maxium battery life and charge capacity.

    Let me know if I missed something.

    ~ Carl
  9. ET1
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    #9  
    I am trying to charge a new external battery for my Treo 600 and it will only show 60% after being charged over night. This is the fourth (yes 4th) external battery I have tried, all with the same result.

    What can I do?

    Thank you!
  10. #10  
    This may be an obvious answer. But your external battery will only charged while attached to your Treo. Make sure it's securely attached before charging.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by ET1
    I am trying to charge a new external battery for my Treo 600 and it will only show 60% after being charged over night. This is the fourth (yes 4th) external battery I have tried, all with the same result.

    What can I do?

    Thank you!
    ET1 ~

    I will assume that you have satisfactory battery use with your internal battery - with the same method of charging.

    Other forum members have reported battery charging and meter anomalies. After considerable frustration, their problem usually resolved with a "Hard Reset" of their Treo.

    Take a look at the following thread:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...ad.php?t=51591

    I am about to ship 15 External Battery-Based Cradles. When I recieve External Batteries, they are charged and tested fully. Prior to shipment, I test charge retension level and again charge until LED turns Green. I have yet to experience a failed battery. It is unlikely that your have had 4 defective External Batteries. (unlikely - not impossible) Let me know

    ~ Carl
  12. #12  
    I like them when they are all hot and charged up..... nice and warm to the touch...sometimes I get carried away and rip their little covers off and then....
    I have detailed files.
  13. #13  
    Treominator, are you related to this guy? heh
    "Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." -Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, 1989
  14. #14  
    Got this advice from IBM re: Li-ion.

    When you first get you battery, do a full charge and drain, and repeat 3 times. After that, use it any way you want.

    I have done so with every li-ion battery, and they have lasted many years.

    The only times I had batteries fail is if this process was not followed.
    (or the battery was inherently defective, like many of the Treos).
  15. ET1
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    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by rosenft
    This may be an obvious answer. But your external battery will only charged while attached to your Treo. Make sure it's securely attached before charging.
    I use the cradle and had the battery hooked up alone to another 120v charger without the Treo on it.

    Now when I attach the battery to the Treo and then attach the charger, it works fine.

    Thank you Rosenft!!
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    Got this advice from IBM re: Li-ion.

    When you first get you battery, do a full charge and drain, and repeat 3 times. After that, use it any way you want.

    I have done so with every li-ion battery, and they have lasted many years.

    The only times I had batteries fail is if this process was not followed.
    (or the battery was inherently defective, like many of the Treos).
    mikec ~ As a fellow Treo user, please help me out - re: your post.

    Please post an IBM URL with your stated instructions. If you visit:

    http://www-3.ibm.com/pc/support/site...id=PFAN-3QNQJN

    you will notice that these instructions are for Ni-MH Batteries.

    A Note of Caution from this page: [ Re: Li-Ion Batteries ]

    "NOTE: Do not deep-discharge Lithium Ion batteries. Batteries can degrade when they are left unused for long periods of time. For some rechargeable batteries (particularly Lithium Ion batteries), leaving a battery unused in a discharged state could increase the risk of a battery short circuit, which could shorten the life of the battery and can also pose a safety hazard. Do not let rechargeable Lithium-Ion batteries completely discharge or store these batteries in a discharged state."

    IBM uses Sanyo and Panasonic as a source for many of ThinkPad Li-Ion Batteries.
    The following Sanyo document is consistent with prior info I have suggested in this regard.

    http://www.sanyo.com/batteries/pdfs/lionT_E.pdf

    Panasonic's Toughbook Mod 29 is currently deployed in Iraq. (In large numbers)

    www.toughbook.com

    Their unit performs very well:

    http://www.techworthy.com/Laptop/Apr...-Notebooks.htm

    with very favorable battery life. However, their instructions contain many valid points of caution - to ensure maximum battery charge and life when used as directed.

    Li-Ion Battery Failure in Laptop computers is accelerated by CPU Heat.

    I am amazed by your statement of success:

    "I have done so with every li-ion battery, and they have lasted many years."

    Trust me - I want to accept this - but it ain't so. If I assume that you plug your portable into AC once daily, the Mfg. projected MTBF is under 2 yrs.

    Also your statement regarding the Treo Battery:

    "battery was inherently defective, like many of the Treos".

    Please provide some objective information supporting this.

    The words "inherently defective" = every Treo battery is defective.

    Supporting objective information will be much appreciated and most helpful.

    ~ Carl
    Last edited by ArcBody; 06/13/2004 at 09:17 PM.
  17. #17  
    As a fellow Treo user, I would usually ignore your response and place it in the PFO bin.

    However, I will provide a little info for the bebefit for the rest of TC.

    Last point first. You may want to improve your reading comphrehension, as I noted MANY Treo batteries are defective.
    This is not ALL, as you asserted.

    Here is my objective proof:
    Since last Nov, I have been through FOUR Treos due to bad batteries. (that said, my current has lasted 2 months).

    Oh, personal experience not enough? I refer to the 158 people in my company (I know the exact number, because I approved the purchases) would have Treos. Guess what? Over 80% of them have had to replace their Treos at least once due to battery problems.

    Re: your disbelief in my li-ion experience, I could care less. I got my advice from a Sr. IBM Support person back in 1998. And it works. I am still using many laptops from 99, 00, and 01 that are working just fine. And yes, they are daily plugged into AC. (I base this on experience with over 300 IBM, Dell and Toshiba laptops.)
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    Here is my objective proof:
    Since last Nov, I have been through FOUR Treos due to bad batteries. (that said, my current has lasted 2 months).
    I beg your pardon, but perhaps this is due to draining them three times?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    Oh, personal experience not enough? I refer to the 158 people in my company (I know the exact number, because I approved the purchases) would have Treos. Guess what? Over 80% of them have had to replace their Treos at least once due to battery problems.
    Or perhaps they listened to your advice?

    My father sells electronics and deals with this stuff daily, and he has always told me to keep li-ion batteries as fully charged as possible.

    If it's worked for you, fine. But it sounds like it hasn't. I certainly wouldn't go by what someone said six years ago. A buddy of mine often went weeks without recharging his last cell phone (li-ion). After several months the battery wouldn't last more than a minute. You even said so yourself - the old laptops plugged in daily still work fine.

    Just a heads up.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by dtbroyhill
    I beg your pardon, but perhaps this is due to draining them three times?



    Or perhaps they listened to your advice?

    My father sells electronics and deals with this stuff daily, and he has always told me to keep li-ion batteries as fully charged as possible.

    If it's worked for you, fine. But it sounds like it hasn't. I certainly wouldn't go by what someone said six years ago. A buddy of mine often went weeks without recharging his last cell phone (li-ion). After several months the battery wouldn't last more than a minute. You even said so yourself - the old laptops plugged in daily still work fine.

    Just a heads up.
    Broyhill,
    Nice try, no cookie.
    The battery failures on my Treo had nothing to do wth the 3x drain...how do I know? I tested with the third one (based on "new info"; i.e. following the "charge them all the time"), and it made no difference.

    Also, very few people in my company follow the 3x rule, so the failues are not due to that.

    The laptop are not always on AC; they are regularly on battery 1-2 hours every other day or so (some daily).

    As I have said before. do whatever you like...
  20. #20  
    So far my Treo hasn't had any battery problems but just to add to the conversation:

    I fly Electric Powered Model Planes, Lithium Polymer batteries are "new" to the hobby, but many are switching as they are lighter and more powerful than their NiMH cousin but they have some caveats.

    Once LiPo's drop below a critical voltage (on the Treo this about 4.7 v I think) they begin to self destruct basically and start to loose charging capacity. This is why a deep discharge is not recommended.

    The LiPo's don't reach their "full capacity" for storing a charge until about the third charge/discharge cycle. This may be the root of the IBM recommendation, I wouldn't deep discharge them all the way though.
    Pete
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