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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete_L_P
    I've got 5 iPods in my house, I always take one to the beach, and I agree with MC Hammered. The sound quality is right up there with the iPod.

    Now if Palm came out with a treo that included the next toshiba 4gb mini drive, (it just about 2 oz.s) I'd probably give up the iPod all together.

    Pete
    Try jogging with your mini hard drive, ouch..
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by kea423
    "The sound quality is as good as my friends iPod!"

    Whoa there... let's not get crazy here...

    This is obviously coming from someone who doesn't own an ipod.

    -dan
    I've got to admit, I love the iPod. Don't own one, but have spec'd & setup a ton of iPods for many clients (my recommendation). Will be sending one to Iraq, waiting for decision as to choice, for Marine.

    In my Treo, I use an Ultra II 512 SD Card - Music recorded from my CDs @ 320 kbps. Use both Pocket Tunes & RealPlayer - I use objective & critical eval methods vs brand loyal & subjective.

    Put a dixie cup and a string on an iPod and you'll hear the ocean Fair is fair, got to use a superior output device.

    I listen for texture, overtones, dissonance, dynamic range, ability to selectively hear each insttrument, voice and note, as objective tools.

    Do us all a favor - Output to a quad-trace frequency analyser and post statistics and a few pics.
    Attached Images Attached Images
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    Try jogging with your mini hard drive, ouch..
    Guess that explains the iPods complete failure to generate any sales.

    Actually, many people found the original iPod, with 20 minute skip protection, just fine for jogging.

    The iPod Mini has more skip protection (25 minutes), and is FAR LESS sensitve to shock due to the small radius of the disk's platter. I'd bet that sensitivity to shock is more or less proportional to the SQUARE of the disk's radius. Making the Mini better by a very wide margin.

    Pete
    Last edited by Pete_L_P; 05/26/2004 at 11:22 AM.
  4. #24  
    Skip protection will not save a drive, it is a read ahead buffer, to eliminate skips for listening only.

    I have seen, and read many posts about trashed drives. I would never run with anything that costly, rather use a flash for excercising.

    Ipod mini for taking music collection with me.

    It is the gap between the read/write heads and the disks surface, not necessarily the size of the platter that kills on impact, it is the nature of the beast.

    Last paragraph in the glowing 8.7 review of the Ipod mini.

    An exposed slot on the bottom of the iPod Mini attaches to either a FireWire or USB 1.1/2.0 cable (both included) or the optional cradle ($39), which connects to the AC adapter or a FireWire/USB port or directly to a stereo through the line-out jack. The Mini snaps into an included white belt clip for on-the-go listening. Apple also offers an optional armband ($29) for exercise, which uses the same, cool snap-in design, but like all hard drive-based MP3 players, the iPod Mini isn't the ideal choice for strenuous physical activity. The optional in-line remote ($39) is the same one included with some versions of the white iPod
    Last edited by dlbrummels; 05/26/2004 at 01:07 PM.
  5. #25  
    You guys seem to be more knowledgeable than I regarding mp3s......

    I have recorded songs from CD directly to MP3 format, usually at 192 or 224 kbps, and placed them both on my trusty RIO S35S for running and on the T600 for travel (shared Sd cards too). Why do I notice significant differences in sound quality (echo/digitizing/phasing) with the Rio being better? Is it really the output device (Seido vs in-ear Sony)? I am tempted to get a 2.5mm adaptor just to find out, but thought I'd post first to see if there might be a processor/other difference.
    "That's right Ice-man, I am dangerous"
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    It is the gap between the read/write heads and the disks surface, not necessarily the size of the platter that kills on impact, it is the nature of the beast.

    The reason the radius of the platter is so important is because, for a given torsional rigidity: the larger the radius, the larger the transverse movement that will occur for any particular applied force. (ie shock). Of course other factors can also vary between these drives.

    I did read in a press release that the smaller drives did in fact have better shock resistence.

    Pete
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by alohafriday
    You guys seem to be more knowledgeable than I regarding mp3s......

    I have recorded songs from CD directly to MP3 format, usually at 192 or 224 kbps, and placed them both on my trusty RIO S35S for running and on the T600 for travel (shared Sd cards too). Why do I notice significant differences in sound quality (echo/digitizing/phasing) with the Rio being better? Is it really the output device (Seido vs in-ear Sony)? I am tempted to get a 2.5mm adaptor just to find out, but thought I'd post first to see if there might be a processor/other difference.
    I suspect you'll be completely satisfied if you get the adapter and listen with the same earphones. Of course, my hearing may be less than perfect. I don't know. The adapter is certainly cheap enough. Why not try it out and let us know.

    Pete
  8. #28  
    I am using Etymotic ER-4P (suppose to be the best head set in the world)with Seidio Treo 2-in-1 Adapter for my treo..but still feel that comparing with ipod is a long stretch..
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimzo
    I am using Etymotic ER-4P (suppose to be the best head set in the world)with Seidio Treo 2-in-1 Adapter for my treo..but still feel that comparing with ipod is a long stretch..
    I can think of five explanations here:

    1) Your ears are working 100% and mine aren't (just a guess, not sure about this.)
    2) You haven't found the best settings regarding volume boost on the treo-- please try some different settings here and let us know.
    3) You haven't compared both units (iPod and Treo) with these same headphones.
    4) There may be an impedence mismatch which causes the Sure headphones to perform inadequately on the treo.
    5) The Sure's are said to have a very pronounced high end. Perhaps they're highlighting some problems that would not be apparent with other headphones. I'm using the Koss PortaPro (highly respected) and they sound truely excellent.

    I'm curious and would like to know which of these can be eliminated.

    Pete
    Last edited by Pete_L_P; 05/26/2004 at 04:35 PM.
  10.    #30  
    Unfortunately sound is truly subjective for every person and we might never get agreement here, but it is my opinion that the headphones do make a huge difference in the quality of sound reproduced.

    Having a good quality mp3 rip is essential too, but if you have a bad output device then you are screwed.

    My B&O A8's sound great to me but I just tried the Treo with my Sony V900's and there is much better bass response due to the larger form factor of the headphones.

    I suggest that people try out the 2.5mm adapter and set the EQ settings on the Treo and try it out.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by ArcBody
    I've got to admit, I love the iPod. Don't own one, but have spec'd & setup a ton of iPods for many clients (my recommendation). Will be sending one to Iraq, waiting for decision as to choice, for Marine.

    In my Treo, I use an Ultra II 512 SD Card - Music recorded from my CDs @ 320 kbps. Use both Pocket Tunes & RealPlayer - I use objective & critical eval methods vs brand loyal & subjective.

    Put a dixie cup and a string on an iPod and you'll hear the ocean Fair is fair, got to use a superior output device.

    I listen for texture, overtones, dissonance, dynamic range, ability to selectively hear each insttrument, voice and note, as objective tools.

    Do us all a favor - Output to a quad-trace frequency analyser and post statistics and a few pics.
    I'm not sure if you're mad me for my post but if you are... I was kidding... well... maybe I was just being an ipod snob.

    -dan
  12. #32  
    Thanks everyone. I'll give the adaptor a shot as I can't seem to explain the difference otherwise. I'll try to report back regarding the results.
    "That's right Ice-man, I am dangerous"
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete_L_P
    The reason the radius of the platter is so important is because, for a given torsional rigidity: the larger the radius, the larger the transverse movement that will occur for any particular applied force. (ie shock). Of course other factors can also vary between these drives.

    I did read in a press release that the smaller drives did in fact have better shock resistence.

    Pete
    Rigidity in the platter may give some benefit but once the head hits the platter it is over no matter how small and rigid the platter is.

    Press releases from a manufacture are almost meaningless, they will never give you the negatives of the product.

    That is why it is beneficial to read third party reviews since the have no vested interest.


    The Ipod is a great product, just not for heavy exercising, I would use something more disposable
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    Skip protection will not save a drive, it is a read ahead buffer, to eliminate skips for listening only.
    What do you see the difference as between skip protection and a read-ahead buffer?


    Thanks,
    Peter
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by phandel
    What do you see the difference as between skip protection and a read-ahead buffer?

    Thanks,
    Peter
    The point is that the read-ahead buffer / skip protection is helpful for CD / DVD applications. At issue - Head Crash - Fatal Error.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by ArcBody
    The point is that the read-ahead buffer / skip protection is helpful for CD / DVD applications. At issue - Head Crash - Fatal Error.
    No, it's even more important for hard drive based systems, since skip protection protects the drive from actual damage. Here's how they work: The skip protection fills the read-ahead buffer with 20+ minutes of music, and then moves the drive arm to the safest part of the disk (which is called "parking the heads"). In this position, the hard drive can sustain much more shock before the physical mechanism is damaged. Music is then played from the buffer, which is not only good for the health of the drive, but also great for battery savings.

    With a CD/DVD-based mechanism, the skip protection merely protects against skipping, as shock will cause no damage.


    Thanks,
    Peter
  17. #37  
    Yes, parking the head is good for rough movement, but after the 20 minutes the head un-parks, still working out, platter still spinning ...one hard
    hit........bam....crashed ....heads.........game over man.
  18. #38  
    My MP3s are 320 Kbps ~ 12MB per cut. (One reason why audio is excellent).

    Apple states 25 minutes @ 16 Kbps (~ 1 min @ 320 Kbps)
    • Please remind me re: buffer size.
    I know a little about Borosilicate Disks Drives, Giant Magnetic Head Technology, Fluid HDD Bearings, Drive Buffers, arial density, etc.

    Hitachi 4GB HDD Data Buffer = 128 kb

    http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/suppor...o/micro3k4.htm

    http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/techl...i_WP_Final.pdf

    http://www.apple.com/ipod/specs.html

    Relative humidity (non-condensing) 8% to 90%
    Maximum wet bulb (non-condensing) 29.4 C
    Shock (half sine wave) 200 G/2ms
    Random Vibration (RMS)0.67 G (5 - 500Hz)
    Vibration (swept sine)1.0 G 0 - Peak

    Cnet Reveiew:

    http://asia.cnet.com/reviews/hardwar...9172202,00.htm

    "Now, I don't recommend jogging with any hard drive-based player, even though I've heard stories of people who've trained for and competed in marathons with an iPod and never experienced a skip. But I've also heard of hard drive players that have ceased to function due to jogging. If you're feeling lucky, go ahead and jog with your microdrive player; from what I can tell, odds are that it will be fine, but we're talking about potential damage to US$250 devices. For that reason, jogging and other highly active pursuits might be the only remaining uses for flash players if microdrive models catch on with consumers. "
    Last edited by ArcBody; 05/27/2004 at 02:08 PM.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    Rigidity in the platter may give some benefit but once the head hits the platter it is over no matter how small and rigid the platter is.

    Press releases from a manufacture are almost meaningless, they will never give you the negatives of the product.

    That is why it is beneficial to read third party reviews since the have no vested interest.


    The Ipod is a great product, just not for heavy exercising, I would use something more disposable
    I believe you're missing my point entirely. Please reread.

    I'm saying if the rigidity stays the same, then for a given shock, the larger platter will have MORE movement. Since it's supported only in the center, the farther from the fulcrom, the greater the transverse movement (i.e. movement in a direction perpendicular to the platters plane) for that given force. More transverse movement means an increased probability of head hitting platter, all other things being equal.

    Pete
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete_L_P
    I believe you're missing my point entirely. Please reread.

    I'm saying if the rigidity stays the same, then for a given shock, the larger platter will have MORE movement. Since it's supported only in the center, the farther from the fulcrom, the greater the transverse movement (i.e. movement in a direction perpendicular to the platters plane) for that given force. More transverse movement means an increased probability of head hitting platter, all other things being equal.

    Pete
    No, I didn't miss the point.



    Point one, all hard drives will crash, given a good impact on drive access/seeks etc.



    Point number two, I have repaired computers since the onset of the personal computer, when IBM was the only personal computer.



    Point three, I have seen more trashed hard drives in my life than a dealer probably has Ipods.



    AT bus, SCSI, they all the crash the same, Western Digital. Seagate, Quantum, Maxtor, etc. etc.



    Why would you argue a losing battle against all independent reviewers of the Ipod line, and an Electronics Engineer ?
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