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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by BillPetro
    I appreciate your sympathy :-)

    However, I'm not prepared to grin and bear it. I fly over 100,000 miles a year with United and have for several years, and sit on the Travel Council of a Fortune 500 company that spends millions with United. I want to fix this so I can get some work done in the many hours I spend on United's flights.

    I suspect "someone" at United will care about being percieved as being "busines-unfriendly" and losing business while they're still in Chapter 11.

    I'm trying to find out who that "someone" is.

    Regards,
    You might also try your post at http://www.untied.com/complain/
    "There has always been a tension in conservatism between those who favor more liberty and those who want more morality. But what's indisputable is that Bush's 'compassionate conservatism' is a move toward the latter - the use of the government to impose and subsidize certain morals over others. He is fusing big government liberalism with religious right moralism. It's the nanny-state with more cash." -- www.AndrewSullivan.com
  2. #42  
    the whole concept of all of the rules and how they enforce it, is a total joke...

    If there was REALLY any chance that someones cell phone or PDA could interfere with the airplanes instrumentation and/or flight controls, do you really think they would ever let you board the plane with it? How could they possibly allow the devices on board if they have the capability to endanger the lives of hundreds of thousands of people each day??

    No way.... never.... If this were really the case, then cell phones and PDA's would be banned from planes just like weapons are....

    So why haven't the revised the ancient rules? I have no idea... maybe it is so the airlines can make more money from making inflight calls at $3/minute....
  3. #43  
    also, as soon as UA flight landed, and move away from the active runway, they allow passengers to use the cell phone while the main door is closed. I wonder why they would allow the cell phone is being used after landed, but not after it pushes back from the gate and before it takes off (in both case, the door is closed).

    if i were in the flight and they do not allow me to use TREO 600, i would just turn the screen off and take a nap. don't want to start any disagreement with the flight crew because they could call up the FBI and FBI would wait for you once it lands. LOL
  4. #44  
    I hear this item debated with such heat and passion, it always amazes me.

    I do about 50k a year with United (premiere exec .... but not 1k like the thread starter) and have found inconsistent results here as well. Sometimes I can get away with using it. Other times, I can't. The law here is vague at best -- but it appears to me that the FAA mandates that there's only a few types of items that the airlines need to allow, and the rest is up to the airline ("carrier" in the terminology below) to decide on their own. But, the interesting part in the section below - as I read it - is that if the carrier does decide to allow a particular class of device to be used, they'd better be able to prove it doesn't produce any interference:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/c...4cfr91_00.html
    THIS DATA CURRENT AS OF THE FEDERAL REGISTER DATED JANUARY 15, 2004

    14 CFR - CHAPTER I - PART 91

    91.21 Portable electronic devices.

    (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:

    (1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate; or

    (2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.

    (b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to --

    (1) Portable voice recorders;

    (2) Hearing aids;

    (3) Heart pacemakers;

    (4) Electric shavers; or

    (5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.

    (c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Here's the other point -- I don't know if the original poster has a CDMA or GSM Treo. Personally, I have a GSM -- and when it's next to my car stereo and a call starts coming in you can clearly hear interference through the stereo speakers. THAT IS INTERFERENCE! Kinda proves the point right there that the Treo 600 *can* cause radio interference, no? Same with the Nextel phone that I used to have -- horrible interference in any speakers that were nearby.

    In all honesty, I don't think the airlines, the FAA, or any private pilots are worried about a cell phone or two interfering with the electronics in an airplane enough to cause a severe loss of control. What I think they are afraid of is 300+ passengers ... ALL using their phones ... ALL through takeoff/landing (the only time you'd probably be able to maintain a signal anyway). So, it's not the single 600mW radio ... or even the 7 watt iridium radio .... it's 300+ 600mw radios all broadcasting at once inside of a narrow metal tube. Who knows what might happen?

    Sadly, it's probably too much to expect the individual airlines to be up-to-speed on every hybrid device (laptops with WiFi, PDAs with radios) these days. In time, I have a feeling that things will get better -- but for now, we are on the cutting edge and sometimes there's a price to be paid for being there.
    Toomer
  5. #45  
    Don't any flight attendants own a Treo 600 and also happen to be members here? Tell us your side of the story.
    Last edited by zgraff; 05/10/2004 at 04:06 PM.
    Treo 600 GSM
  6.    #46  
    Toomer,

    Thanks for your insightful comments. I carry a a Sprint Treo 600, which is CDMA. I have carried it on 79 United flights since I've gotten it. Only twice have I been asked to turn it off, even after demonstrating "Wireless Mode Off" to the Flight Attendant.

    I completely understand that they can't be expected to know every cell phone. I equally do not expect that my ability to work with my Treo should be impacted by their lack of information.

    I have spent 149 hours in a United seat since the beginning of the year (thank you, QuickSheet). I'd like to use some of that time for catching up on work... if I can show these Flight Attendants that this Treo is an approved device.

    Regards,
    Bill Petro
    www.billpetro.com
  7. #47  
    Check the printed version of your user manual to see if it's also true, but the online PDF for the "GSM" Treo 600 specifically talks about using it on an airline (turning Wireless Mode on and off). Maybe you could carry the printed manual around, with the segment about airlines highlighted, or print the page from the PDF, and show it to the flight attendant if challenged.

    http://www.palmone.com/us/support/ha...o600gsm_UG.pdf

    Page 14, "Turning Treo on and off"

    "When Wireless Mode is off, your Treo does not have a connection to any mobile network. You can still use the organizer and other Palm OS features. This is ideal for airplane flights and for maximizing battery life."
  8.    #48  
    Bbonnn,

    That's actually a good idea, for Flight Attendants who are reasonable. In the short term, I'll print out page 27 (of the CDMA version) which says essentially the same thing.

    Thanks!
    Bill Petro
    www.billpetro.com
  9. Sky Nazi's Avatar
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    #49  
    As an airline captain, I can tell you that the F.A. must follow what is in his/her flight manual. If the manual says you can't use it inflight, then no matter what external document you show to the F.A., they are not going to let you use the device.

    My advice on using the T600, with your left hand cover over the antennae. The F.A. will never notice that the device is actually a phone.
    Devices Owned:
    Handspring 600 (retired), Treo 650 x2 (retired), Centro x2 (offline usage), Palm Pre x2, HTC EVO

    Apps I can't live without on my Pre:
    Dr. Podder, Music (Remix) and JogStats
  10.    #50  
    Thanks Sky Nazi. That's why I said "in the short term." In your experience, what document, and from whom, would a F.A. pay attention to -- if I showed them -- that the Treo 600 is allowed?

    Regards,
    Bill Petro
    www.billpetro.com
  11. #51  
    Here goes, my dander is up now.

    dtoombs, when you claim your GSM Treo 600 causes interference near your car stereo what do you mean? Static I assume.

    First, your car radio is not made to the same specs as aviation radios such as the Collins, King or Narco radios I have had in my aircraft. And they are not installed in the same manner. Try some research under 'avionics.'

    Second, maybe you should mention the static to your mechanic the next time you have your car serviced. They have neat little do-dads that can solve that, irrelevant to this discussion, problem.

    Finally, just because you hear static on your car stereo, which again is what I assume your meant, does not mean that your GSM Treo 600 would interfere with aircraft nav/comm radios and navigation equipment.

    To the TC members in general,

    I have had handheld cell phones since the days of the first 'brick' cell phones and have used them in and around my aircraft: fixed wing, rotary wing and sailplane (although not used while flying) and I have keep them on while flying and I have never seen anything that would suggest any kind of "interference" with my nav/comm radios, ELT, transponder, altitude encoder, Loran, GPS, VOR, LOC, marker beacon receiver, glide slope, etc. ( a lot of different combinations of terms, features, etc. applicable to the various systems I have had over time) but in the end NO INTERFERENCE!

    No wonder we have such a hard time killing this BS urban myth with inaccurate and uninformed comments like my Treo causes INTERFERENCE!

    And the point of this thread is not that anyone here is suggesting we should be able to make calls or access data on our Treo 600s while in flight but that we SHOULD be allowed to use them in "Wireless Mode Off." There are no FAA regulations or federal rules or statutes that prevent that; only the ignorance of some officious, uninfomed functionary too lazy, stupid or both to get off their fat backsides and do a little research.

    For the irrational TC members,

    For those dumb enough to think the plane will fall out of the sky or veer off course if we use our Treo 600 PDA functions in flight, take a train or a bus and let the rest of us get on with business.

    The older I get the more intollerant I become of the ignorant, lead me around by the nose, I can't think for myself, so government tell me what to do and think I'll give up all my freedom as I am a coward sheep that stick their heads in the sand like ostrich bleating save me, save me, the sky is falling while they knee jerk react to everything. Why the hell I ever volunteered for service in the Army and Vietnam I'll never know but it was not for their ilk, that is for damn sure.

    Those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither. Ben Franklin

    Flame away I have my nomex on I won't mind as I feel much better having got all that off my chest.
  12. #52  
    If I'm not mistaken, most consumer grade electronics, like a car stereo or a TV set is an FCC Class C rated device. My understanding of class C is that it does not create interferring radiation and that it must not interfere with any radation that may be directed towards it.

    C
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Nazi
    As an airline captain, I can tell you that the F.A. must follow what is in his/her flight manual. If the manual says you can't use it inflight, then no matter what external document you show to the F.A., they are not going to let you use the device.

    My advice on using the T600, with your left hand cover over the antennae. The F.A. will never notice that the device is actually a phone.
    Herr Nazi,

    Am I correct with I say that a F.A. will defer to you as the captain if you deem the device "acceptable"? The FAA rules seem to indicate that the captain has the final say on what is or is not acceptable:

    Quote:

    (c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.



    If a passenger approached you before the flight and asked if his Treo was OK, what would you do? I know that lots of folks who own GPS units will do this and usually are met with a positive response.

    My impression is that "the manual" is also loosely written. There seems to be a lot of leeway as far as interpretation goes. Witness the fact that a lot of folks have flown United and have not had problems.

    Seig Heil!
    ;-)
  14. #54  
    I have posted previously:
    (http://discuss.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=49351)
    regarding my experiences onboard many different airlines (but especially UA) and that I have never had difficulty with a flight attendant as long as I politely speak to one pre-flight to show them that I might use my PDA (when allowed), but that the phone would otherwise be off.

    However, I became curious about all of the posts regarding regulations so I was able to get some information from some very trusted sources. Without the minutiae of what defines a transmitter and what regulation does or does not apply, here is what I learned.

    First, everyone at the airline wants to have a policy that addresses current and future technology because they know that it is frustrating for both the customers and flight attendants. But they are waiting for the FAA who are waiting on the FCC to develop a policy regarding these devices. Apparently the EU counterpart to the FCC has developed a policy and the FCC is reviewing it for agreement and consistency. As soon as there are the appropriate sign-offs, a new policy will be written into the manual. I did not get a timeframe for when this is supposed to happen, but the airline wants it ASAP.

    If you go absolutely by the book (policy manual), the Treo should be treated as a cell phone and not allowed to be used in flight (this is the policy, certainly not my belief or practice). However, I think this is where a little politeness and show-and-tell goes a long way (see my original post).

    BillPetro (and anyone else), if you have been treated rudely, I do apologize because your business is important to all airlines these days. To me, it appears that there is a long administrative chain that is way behind the technology curve when it comes to policy. At least change is on the way.

    I hope that this helps clear things up a little bit. Happy flying everyone!
    "That's right Ice-man, I am dangerous"
  15. mgauss's Avatar
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    #55  
  16. #56  
    fly everyday with Soutwest and never have any issues!
  17. martinp13's Avatar
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    #57  
    I have only flown American recently, so my experience is limited. The two times I have been challenged, I have shown them "Wireless Mode Off" and I have been allowed to continue using it. If you ever have a problem on American, here is the verbage from their website (also reprinted in American Way magazine onboard in the seat pocket in front of you, right next to the barf bag ) [note: italics are mine]:

    Electronic Equipment
    All portable electronic devices must remain off during taxi, takeoff, approach and landing until the plane arrives at the gate and the seat-belt sign is turned off. Cellphones may be used on certain aircraft after landing in the U.S., the U.S. Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico, once authorized by a flight attendant announcement. During flight, your flight attendant will tell you when you may use portable electronic devices, such as cellphone/PDA/two-way pager combinations using only PDA functions, and only if the flight attendant can verify that transmitting capabilities are turned off. Never use the following equipment during flight: cellular phone, two-way pager, radio, TV set, remote-controlled game or toy, cordless computer mouse, commercial TV camera, or Global Positioning System. The use of any device that could cause damage to existing equipment, or that may diminish the design, function, or capability of any aircraft part or component, is not permitted. Any radio transmission using personal communications devices is prohibited. These devices may interfere with the aircraft's communication and navigation systems.*

    *The electronic device policy may vary on American Eagle and AmericanConnection. Please see a flight attendant for specifics.

    -----
    And in that paragraph, isn't it sad that American is smart enough to allow my Treo 600, but stupid enough to ban GPS receivers? I guess you can't have it all.
    -----
    On the topic of interference, I can hold my wireless-enabled T-Mo GSM Treo 600 next to my computer speakers and make them sing (or scream in pain... I don't speak "speaker"). I can leave the phone 4 feet away and hear tone hums now and then. I doubt such interference is enough to bother airplane equipment, but don't say "there's no interference".

    > Martin
    Last edited by martinp13; 05/11/2004 at 03:04 PM.
  18. #58  
    Is there a new version of Fliphack or an equivalent for OS 5 so we can use the Treo upside down so as to hide the antenna from the Flight Attendant??
  19. Sky Nazi's Avatar
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    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by duoart
    Herr Nazi,

    Am I correct with I say that a F.A. will defer to you as the captain if you deem the device "acceptable"? The FAA rules seem to indicate that the captain has the final say on what is or is not acceptable:

    Quote:

    (c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.



    If a passenger approached you before the flight and asked if his Treo was OK, what would you do? I know that lots of folks who own GPS units will do this and usually are met with a positive response.

    My impression is that "the manual" is also loosely written. There seems to be a lot of leeway as far as interpretation goes. Witness the fact that a lot of folks have flown United and have not had problems.

    Seig Heil!
    ;-)
    Well the operator (airline) decides which devices are acceptable and lists those devices in the flight attendants manual and in the inflight magazine found in the seat pockets. I personally would not have a problem with a passanger using the T600, but then again, I am a T600 owner.

    F.A.'s come in a wide range. You will have some that will follow their manual to the letter and you will have other's that wont give a $hit because they just got their pay cut in half by recent concessions.

    If you are told to turn off the T600, look in the inflight magazine. If you can use the phone with the wireless function being turned off, polietly show the F.A. the inflight magazine. If they still say no, follow what they say. Remember, F.A.'s have to deal with alot of jerks on a daily basis. It is a job you couldn't pay me enough to do, so lets try not to make it any harder on them.
    Devices Owned:
    Handspring 600 (retired), Treo 650 x2 (retired), Centro x2 (offline usage), Palm Pre x2, HTC EVO

    Apps I can't live without on my Pre:
    Dr. Podder, Music (Remix) and JogStats
  20. #60  
    I agree with SkyNazi (Dude, I hope this isn't your call sign! ) that FAs come in a variety of flavors and dispositions from cool to cranky. You will always get a lot further by being nice vs. demanding no matter how right you are about the Treo (especially when messing with the crew is a federal offense).

    As a follow-up to my earlier post, the FAA doesn't actually make anything really more than a recommendation. We are waiting for the FCC. Apparently, it was a surprise that the europeans made a ruling ahead of them, so now they are trying to reconcile their decision to have a consistent policy.

    With all of the near-term technology that I hear is coming to airplanes, e.g., onboard servers, wi-fi, live connections, etc, the FCC and the airlines better prepare to react a lot more quickly.

    So play well with others and don't run down the aisles with (plastic) scissors.

    BTW, I have a flight this weekend and will see what happens when I don't ask for permission.
    "That's right Ice-man, I am dangerous"
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